TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[Rhydgaled]

Reopen the Carmarthen to Aber line? They've got no chance, IMHO. It is costing £350m to reopen the Borders line from Gala to Edinburgh and the main structures are still extant. To reopen that you'd have to spend upwards of £600m!

That is the re-opening I would like to see above all others (except, perhaps, Ruabon to Barmouth via Llangollen) but it's impossible because much of the original trackbed has been redeveloped. The local councillors who support the campaign are living in fantasy land.

The two towns are only 50 miles apart, and connected by a decent road, so although it pains me to say it the obvious solution would be a better bus service. But it appears that there is simply not enough demand to sustain such a link.

Oh, the demand is there between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth. The repeated petitions, passenger numbers of 117,830 in 2008/9 on the TrawsCambria X40 and the fact Arriva decided they could probably operate it commertially all point to that.

I agree that the obvious solution would be a better bus service, ideally one that acts as part of the rail network and challenges the "rail sometimes beats car, bus never does" mentality, but sadly that doesn't seem possible right now because of Arriva's commertial activities on the corridor.

The Welsh Government had been planning improvements, six buses were even ordered for the project but it seems all but one have now been diverted to other routes (three to increase capacity on the Newtown - Cardiff service and two to Cardiff Airport). The sixth is apparently still in store, but I have no confirmation on that one.

Given the importance of the corridor and the failure to deliver a decent bus service I do feel frustrated and think other options should be explored. Unfortunately, the rail option (particularly if you do it properly and iron out the kinks to speed it up) is probably prohibitively expensive. I do think they should at least do a basic study to identify route options and the journey times these would deliver to see if the time savings over the bus would be worth further work.


--------------------------------------------
Oh, TrawsCambria passenger numbers table (reproduced from here):

X50

• (2007/8) 51,824
• (2008/9) 54,682
• (2009/10) 59,001

550

• (2007/8) 86,687
• (2008/9) 92,220
• (2009/10) 96,348

X40

• (2007/8) 101,260
• (2008/9) 117,830
• (2009/10) 102,980

704

• (2007/8) 76,712
• (2008/9) 81,997
• (2009/10) 93,261

X32

• (2007/8) 76,140
• (2008/9) 78,773
• (2009/10) 70,469

X94

• (2007/8) 80,016
• (2008/9) 86,369
• (2009/10) 79,223

If you can make tables on this fourm, please tell me how and I'll try to make the above look nicer.

Oh, and if anyone has a link to more recent usage figures, that would be useful too.

 

[Llanigraham]

We can never understand why the Traws Cymru runs from Newtown over the mountain to Llan'dod, thereby missing out Llanidloes and Rhayader, a possible connection with the Mach routes at Caersws, and the Aber routes at Llangurig?
For me to get to Cardiff it means I either I have to get a bus to Newtown, or 2 to Llan'dod.
And the road is better!!

 

[Rhydgaled]

We can never understand why the Traws Cymru runs from Newtown over the mountain to Llan'dod, thereby missing out Llanidloes and Rhayader, a possible connection with the Mach routes at Caersws, and the Aber routes at Llangurig?
For me to get to Cardiff it means I either I have to get a bus to Newtown, or 2 to Llan'dod.
And the road is better!!

Wouldn't the service be slower between Newtown and Llandrindod if it went via Llanidloes and Rhayader?

I would suspect the shorter journey time is the reason. Alternatively, if the journey time is longer on the current route it may be that connecting settlements which didn't previously have public transport was the objective.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wouldn't the service be slower between Newtown and Llandrindod if it went via Llanidloes and Rhayader?

I would suspect the shorter journey time is the reason. Alternatively, if the journey time is longer on the current route it may be that connecting settlements which didn't previously have public transport was the objective.

An interesting observation. Number of passengers on the X40 didn't get to 120k a year. The train service from Galashiels to Edinburgh (and business case behind the scheme) was based on 976k annually, though now reduced by a third!

Relaying the Lampeter line would cost nearly twice as much and doubtful it would carry a third of the passengers.

Agree ref: the 704/T4 - the idea was to provide a faster route north of Brecon.

 

[Llanigraham]

Wouldn't the service be slower between Newtown and Llandrindod if it went via Llanidloes and Rhayader?

I would suspect the shorter journey time is the reason. Alternatively, if the journey time is longer on the current route it may be that connecting settlements which didn't previously have public transport was the objective.

From experience, no. The current route is a poor A road with several severe bends and several hills, often treacherous in winter, whereas the Llani/Rhayader route is much better and flatter.
In a car the Llani route is about 20 minutes shorter.
The only large settlement on the current route is Cross Gates, which is a garage and 2 dozen houses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

From experience, no. The current route is a poor A road with several severe bends and several hills, often treacherous in winter, whereas the Llani/Rhayader route is much better and flatter.
In a car the Llani route is about 20 minutes shorter.
The only large settlement on the current route is Cross Gates, which is a garage and 2 dozen houses.

You're right about the quality of the respective roads. The route from Newtown to Llan'dod is not brilliant and the main A470 via Rhayader is a much better road.

However, the key thing about journey times is that in a bus (not being as readily equipped to overtake, and having to adhere to speed limits/not achieving 60mph) means that the current route is quicker!

 

[Llanigraham]

You're right about the quality of the respective roads. The route from Newtown to Llan'dod is not brilliant and the main A470 via Rhayader is a much better road.

However, the key thing about journey times is that in a bus (not being as readily equipped to overtake, and having to adhere to speed limits/not achieving 60mph) means that the current route is quicker!

Is it?
Not from our experience.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is it?
Not from our experience.

Not sure what you mean? Do you mean your current experience as your journey currently exists? Fair comment

However, using times of X47 and X75, then you're looking at 87 mins rather than 48 mins on the T4. Take your point though that Rhyader and Llanidloes are more populous than anywhere on the current T4 route

 

[DaveHarries]

So, the airport is probably stealing 3x X1200 Tempos (orriginally ordered for TC4) and the remaining three unused X1260 Tempos ordered for TC1.

Not sure what the registrations were for the Tempos ordered for the TC1 but noted leaving Cardiff Central bus station at about 4pm today was a Tempo branded for the T9 and in full TC livery. The registration, IIRC, was YA13 AAJ.

HTIOI,
Dave

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not sure what the registrations were for the Tempos ordered for the TC1 but noted leaving Cardiff Central bus station at about 4pm today was a Tempo branded for the T9 and in full TC livery. The registration, IIRC, was YA13 AAJ.

HTIOI,
Dave

I think the TC1 buses carried 62-plates orriginally, but I guess they have been given new plates for the Cardiff Airport Express. Some of the buses on the airport express are former TC4 vehicles see here, this one still has the Stagecoach fleet number on the front which in turn were released when 3 of the 6 buses for the TC1 were swapped with some of the TC4 ones to increase capacity on the TC4.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The good news is that the 701 will indeed be retained but a change of operator is in the offing. From the VOSA Bus Service registrations for 06th August 2013:

PG1058971/2 - COACH TRAVEL WALES LTD, LLYS EIFION YARD, PONTERWYD, ABERYSTWYTH, SY23 3AG
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Aberystwyth and Cardiff Bay given service number 701 effective from 29-Sep-2013.

PG1103020/1 - ERNEST GEORGE BRYAN T/A BRYANS COACHES, 23 FIFTH AVENUE, PENPARCAU, ABERYSTWYTH, SY23 1RE
Registration Accepted
Starting Point: Aberystwyth Bus Station
Finish Point: Cardiff Bay
Via:
Service Number: 701
Service Type: Normal Stopping/Limited Stop
Effective Date: 29-SEP-2013
Other Details: Daily except Xmas Day, Boxing Day & New Years Day.

HTIOI,
Dave

The operator of service 701 will remain the same. It is just that until now he has used a seperate operator licence for this service from his tour business.

The good news is that from Sept 29th this service will be improved. It will still run daily 0740 Aberystwyth- Cardiff and 1600 Cardiff- Aberystwyth.

There will also be a new journey Mon-Sat 0940 from Aber and 1300 from Cardiff.

And yes welsh concessionary passes will still be valid on the whole route.

strangely Arriva has been unable to make its service 20 pay and from the same date will only operate once a day.... so now the 701 will be the main service Aber-Carmarthen- Swansea- Cardiff.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I really don't think this T9 bus to Cardiff Airport is going to survive. The service runs every twenty minutes, but there are about two passengers on board! I really think it should be half-hourly or even hourly.

 

[anthony263]

Seems things are not going arriva's way in the Aberystywth area. Their cymru express services were supposed to have had new low floor double deckers. Strange I havent seen them yet the 1st were supposed to arrive last summer.

Certainly the 701 is a true Trawscymru service seing as it is using a coach. Use the tempos to run a hourly local service between Aberytsywth and Carmarthen connecting with rail services along with a few additional services each day between Aberytsywth and Cardiff using a coach.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Passed an Aberystwyth-bound 20 (a coach for once) on the M4 yesterday, it didn't seem to have many passengers on board.

I agree with Anthony, an hourly Aberystwyth - Carmarthen service using the Tempos ordered for it (have to get them back from T4 and T9 first though) plus a coach twice a day to/from Cardiff should be good.

I have tried to make up a timetable for the hourly Tempo service though and I fear making the bus-rail connections work might make Cardigan - Lampeter connections at Aberaeron impossible.

Similarly replacing the T4 with a TC4 service from Methyr to Newtown with a through Newtown-Cardiff coach occasionally might not be a bad idea. That depends on where the busy sections they have brought the X1260 Tempos for the TC1 in for are, if they are only busy south of Merthyr restoring the previous buses on that section could release the X1260s for the TC1. That might also release the three 55-plate vehicles from the 704, leaving TC4 in the hands of the 6 new vehicles ordered for it (is that enough for 2-hourly Newtown-Merthyr?) which could be used on TrawsCymruConnect routes if Express Motors and Lloyds Coaches won't take them to turn Bangor - Machynlleth into a propper TrawsCymru route.

 

[anthony263]

Well I have been proven correct about the X91 Cardiff - Llantwit Major.

From last monday the services was changed so it no longer services the airport and instead runs to Barry.

http://www.valeofglamorgan.gov.uk/Documents/Living/Transport/Timetables-Summer-2013/Service-X91.pdf

Cardiff Airport is now only served by the T9 to Cardiff city centre and service 304 Barry or Bridgend (304 runs to Cardiff on sundays)

 

[Rhydgaled]

I picked up an interesting leaflet at Aberystwyth station earlier. It is titled: "No car... no Problem! Scenic Wales" and looks like a successor to the "Scenic Wales By Train And TrawsCambria" leaflet/poster.

It seems that everyone is confused regarding what is and what isn't TrawsCambria and/or TrawsCymru. The TrawsCymru logo is used in the leaflet but the key says blue lines on the map are TrawsCambria, but these include the T4 and T9 which are TrawsCymru. Another blue line on the map is a T5 service between Aberystwyth and Haverfordwest (via Fishguard, where the same green dot appears to link bus and rail services, does that mean it would operate via Goodwick or did the pepole who drew the map not realise that Fishguard stations are nowhere near the main bus stops?). The T5 service by the way does not exist, my trip to Aberystwyth and back today was definatly by the X50 service. It isn't clear from the map whether T5 would go via Aberporth, but in any case going from Cardigan to Haverfordwest via Fishguard is Aberporth all over again, on a grander scale.

The map also claims 'express coaches' from Barmouth to Wrexham and Aberystwyth to Carmarthen (Coach Travel Wales' service to Cardiff, which really is a coach (but I've never used it so can't say if it's an express) is not shown).

 

[anthony263]

The Aberystwyth to Cardiff servie operated by Coach Travel wales is certainly an express servce since it doesnt stop at all the little villiages and stops along the route between Aberystwyth and Swansea

 

[Rhydgaled]

In other news, Richards Bros have a timetable change tomorrow (30th Sept) and the X50, 550 and 412 all still exist, no sign of T5.

However, the new timetables for X50/550 and Arriva's 40 service confuse me. Arriva's website shows that service 40 is now only Aberystwyth - Lampeter, with a new service 40c running Lampeter - Carmarthen. Similarly, the X50/550 services north of Aberaeron are shown in seperate coloumns, rather than as a through service. However, the timings (and Ceredigion Council's version of the timetable) suggest the X50/550 runs are still run as a through service. So why print the timetable in a way that looks like you have to change bus? Only guesses I have are that regulations regarding competition between commertial and subsidised services have changed and sections where both a commertial and subsidised service are operating have to be seperate services. If this is the case, then it suggests 40c is subsidised, but the Ceredigion council timetable suggests otherwise and the Carmarthenshire council website hasn't been updated to the new timetable.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In other news, Richards Bros have a timetable change tomorrow (30th Sept) and the X50, 550 and 412 all still exist, no sign of T5.

However, the new timetables for X50/550 and Arriva's 40 service confuse me. Arriva's website shows that service 40 is now only Aberystwyth - Lampeter, with a new service 40c running Lampeter - Carmarthen. Similarly, the X50/550 services north of Aberaeron are shown in seperate coloumns, rather than as a through service. However, the timings (and Ceredigion Council's version of the timetable) suggest the X50/550 runs are still run as a through service. So why print the timetable in a way that looks like you have to change bus? Only guesses I have are that regulations regarding competition between commertial and subsidised services have changed and sections where both a commertial and subsidised service are operating have to be seperate services. If this is the case, then it suggests 40c is subsidised, but the Ceredigion council timetable suggests otherwise and the Carmarthenshire council website hasn't been updated to the new timetable.

It's spelt COMMERCIAL

Might it be that the service is split at Lampeter to avoid tachos?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Might it be that the service is split at Lampeter to avoid tachos?

tachos? If that's a joke, I don't get it? If it's otherwise, I have no clue what that means.

 

[starrymarkb]

Tacho is short for Tachograph. (Formally a drawn graph on a disc, now a full Black Box system akin to OTMR) Not normally required on bus routes under a certain length, but are required for all routes over 50km in length. There are also tighter restrictions on Driver hours on these routes. It's an EU requirement but there is an exemption for local buses under 50km. Rather then fit any vehicle that may end up on the route with tachograph equipment (at a few grand per vehicle) and redo all the driver rosters, the bus company splits the route into sections. Stagecoach do show it fairly clearly with an arrow symbol captioned as "To comply with legislation the route is split, the connection is guaranteed, passengers remain on the vehicle and though fares are available"

 

[Welshman]

Arriva Cymru also applies this trick in their printed timetables for services 5 &X5 [Llandudno-Caernarfon] and 11 [Rhyl-Chester], and probably others too.

It seems to be an officially-approved and quite public way of making a mockery of an EU regulation.

Why agree to the regulation in the first place?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Arriva Cymru also applies this trick in their printed timetables for services 5 &X5 [Llandudno-Caernarfon] and 11 [Rhyl-Chester], and probably others too.

It seems to be an officially-approved and quite public way of making a mockery of an EU regulation.

Why agree to the regulation in the first place?

First of all, I'm not quite certain of how a joke can be construed on the subjects of Lampeter and Tex-Mex food.... Rather worrying if people don't know what a tacho is?

As regards this practice, it is the law of unintended consequences.

In short, the EU brought in this rule. It's aim was to deal with express services and drivers doing a lot of motorway driving etc. However, in most EU countries, you just don't get local bus services of this length (usually as trains fill that gap and population density is also a factor).

In the UK, you do. Hence you had a lot of services affected. In most cases, you had services being registered in sections with a change of service number; there were cases of passengers being ordered off buses whilst a destination blind was changed One example being the 376 Yeovil to Bristol that was theoretically split in Wells into two services when, in practice, it was still operated by the same vehicle.

Some services were operated with tachographs but then you have all sorts of issues on rotas between EU drivers hours and domestic hours. Very troublesome. In the end, some services were just pulled apart and links were lost.

All of this was retrograde and not at all what the regulations were supposed to deal with. Hence the DoT gave guidance that said the registrations could be split, but the service number retained for each of the sections and that timetables could refer to it being a through service - this is explicitly shown by Stagecoach e.g. To comply with drivers’ hours regulations, X4 connects at Corby and Northampton. The connection is guaranteed, through fares are
available and passengers can stay on the bus which operates through.

Appreciate what you're saying but the fact is that local bus services were being swept up into operating EU hours when they were and had always been on domestic rules. Simples

 

[Welshman]

Thank you for that explanation and background information.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Thanks to both of you for the explanation. The only thing I could think of was that tacho was food, and since that would be very off topic I assumed it was a joke that I didn't get. Sorry.

As regards this practice, it is the law of unintended consequences.

In short, the EU brought in this rule. It's aim was to deal with express services and drivers doing a lot of motorway driving etc. However, in most EU countries, you just don't get local bus services of this length (usually as trains fill that gap and population density is also a factor).

I assumed the rise of the private car would have had a similar effect overseas as here, with a demolision of rail services (though not necessarily ripping up track as happened here under Beeching (and before and after)). I assume there must also be routes like Cardigan - Aberystwyth, where a railway was never built (presumably in part due to terrain) in mainland Europe.

In the UK, you do. Hence you had a lot of services affected. In most cases, you had services being registered in sections with a change of service number; there were cases of passengers being ordered off buses whilst a destination blind was changed One example being the 376 Yeovil to Bristol that was theoretically split in Wells into two services when, in practice, it was still operated by the same vehicle.

Some services were operated with tachographs but then you have all sorts of issues on rotas between EU drivers hours and domestic hours. Very troublesome. In the end, some services were just pulled apart and links were lost.

All of this was retrograde and not at all what the regulations were supposed to deal with. Hence the DoT gave guidance that said the registrations could be split, but the service number retained for each of the sections and that timetables could refer to it being a through service - this is explicitly shown by Stagecoach e.g. To comply with drivers’ hours regulations, X4 connects at Corby and Northampton. The connection is guaranteed, through fares are
available and passengers can stay on the bus which operates through.

Sounds like the relevant EU law has been arround for a while then. I've also done a little Googling which suggests a digital tachograph has been required on new-build vehicles since 2006 (which I believe includes all the Pulsars Arriva have branded for CymruExpress).

So, if the law is the cause for the service split, why has it only happened today? Also I think the 412 service (Cardigan - Fishguard - Haverfordwest) is over 50km and the new timetable for that does not appear to have been split en-route.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I assumed the rise of the private car would have had a similar effect overseas as here, with a demolision of rail services (though not necessarily ripping up track as happened here under Beeching (and before and after)). I assume there must also be routes like Cardigan - Aberystwyth, where a railway was never built (presumably in part due to terrain) in mainland Europe.

Sounds like the relevant EU law has been arround for a while then. I've also done a little Googling which suggests a digital tachograph has been required on new-build vehicles since 2006 (which I believe includes all the Pulsars Arriva have branded for CymruExpress).

So, if the law is the cause for the service split, why has it only happened today? Also I think the 412 service (Cardigan - Fishguard - Haverfordwest) is over 50km and the new timetable for that does not appear to have been split en-route.

Without explaining or attempting to justify the whys and wherefores, buses and trains have generally been integrated in mainland Europe (e.g. shorter journeys feeding into rail services) rather than competing. There may be instances where there were also mainland European services affected, but the UK was disproportionately affected.

Also, most of our bus services are operated on UK domestic rules rather than EU; these are more relaxed to EU in terms of maximum duty before breaks etc. See link here... https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/passenger-carrying-vehicles

However, I'd caution about Googling too much...... not every vehicle since 2006 has a digitach!

 

[Polarbear]

It looks like Arriva are about to withdraw from Aberystwyth completely.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24348683

The bus company Arriva has announced 46 jobs are under threat as it plans to cut services and close four sites.

A depot in Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, and outstations in New Quay and Lampeter in Ceredigion and Dolgellau, Gwynedd, could shut on 21 December following a consultation with staff.

That would mean the cancellation of buses 20, 40, 40C, 50, 585 and X94 from the same date.

Arriva Buses Wales blamed public transport funding and fuel costs.

"A recent network review has led us to believe that current services in this area cannot, despite our best efforts, continue," the company said in a statement.

"Due to contractual arrangements service 585 would continue to operate until 15 February 2014. We have notified the local authority of our intentions.

"The proposed closure may unfortunately result in staff losses, and we are currently in consultation with the 46 staff who would be affected."

Drivers were informed on Tuesday morning.

'Bedlam'

The number 20 and 40 buses call at Cardiff, Swansea, Carmarthen, Lampeter, Aberaeron and Aberystwyth.

The number 50 route travels from Synod Inn to Aberaeron and Aberystwyth.

Route 585 runs from Aberystwyth to Lampeter and bus X94 travels from Wrexham to Dolgellau and Barmouth.

Services 20, 40, 40C, 50 and X94 have been commercially operated since February 2012. The 585 is a tendered service, contracted by Ceredigion.

Plaid Cymru health spokesperson Elin Jones said she uses the services affected and it was a "complete shock".

"They've given no real opportunity for a seamless transition to other operators for the local authority and Welsh government to plan that appropriately given the minimum amount of warning on this," she said.

"I use these bus services myself and I know they're well used by people in Ceredigion.

"We now need to see the local authority and Welsh government look to retendering these services as quickly as possible so that other local operators can move in hopefully to salvage this service."

Matt Hemsley from of the sustainable transport charity Sustrans, said the possible cuts were "concerning" and would hit low-income families.

He said: "Two thirds of households in Wales have only one car or no car available to them.

"Obviously, you've got many students in Aberystwyth and it's difficult for them."

The president of the students' union at Aberystwyth University has warned of "bedlam" as a result of the bus cuts.

Ioan Rhys Evans said: "It would have a massively detrimental effect on student life in Aberystwyth."

He said many students without cars would be stranded in Aberystwyth, or face a five-hour train journey to reach areas such as Swansea.

"If you don't have a car then the bus was the easier solution. We obviously feel for the staff who are losing their jobs and it's a massive loss to the community," added Mr Evans.

"It's going to be bedlam getting down to south Wales."

 

[WelshBuses93]

The X94 is run commercially by Wrexham depot, not Aberystwyth. Dolgellau is run by Wrexham depot, since the former X32 was withdrawn.

 

[Rhydgaled]

It looks like Arriva are about to withdraw from Aberystwyth completely.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-24348683

Right. Cardiff Airport: stand and deliver! Bring on the TC1. Shame TC4 needed half the new TrawsCymru X1260 Tempos, they should really have ordered 12 of them instead of 6 X1200s for the TC4 and 6 X1260s for TC1.

 

[radamfi]

Are any of the Arriva services concerned commercial?