trivia oldest and newest together

[Mat17]

That's the first photographic evidence we've had of a 60+.

I've been scouring the terrier and well tank photos on the web to see if they ever hauled Mk 1 stock. Biggest age gap on the same train?
I did find this - that looks like Mark 1 stock on the right. (Could even be a DEMU?)

https://c7.alamy.com/comp/P672G5/a-stroudley-terrier-on-the-hayling-island-branch-of-the-former-lbscr-on-24th-may-1961-at-the-head-of-the-257-to-havant-P672G5.jpg

Not sure about this one

Mark 1Suburbans for sure.

 

[gg1]

Here's a 66 year age gap:




https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrb483.htm

The caption on the site states (my bold):

An ex-MR outside framed 0-6-0, LMS No 22630, is seen near LMS 2-6-4T No 2556 in the roundhouse at Bournville in August 1936. In the second volume of their book on LMS engine sheds, Hawkins & Reeves used this photograph to illustrate the section on Bournville shed and captioned it, rather appropriately, 'Ancient and Modern'. See image 'mrb1549' for another photo & more detail about the veteran 0-6-0. The tank engine was brand new, built by the North British Locomotive Company of Glasgow in July 1936. Designed by William Stanier as a two cylinder version of his original three cylinder design, 206 of this type were built in the years 1935-43, taking numbers previously allotted to ex-MR double framed 0-6-0s. Any of the latter still in service were renumbered by adding 20,000 to their existing numbers. No 22630 (formerly No 2630) was one of these. The 2-6-4T, No 2556, was at Kentish Town in 1945, Lostock Hall in 1948-58, Neasden in 1958-60 and Leicester Central in 1960-3. It was withdrawn from service in July 1963.

22630 entered service in 1870.
https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=113891&type=S&loco=22630

 

[30907]

Mark 1Suburbans for sure.

Pedantically, only the first coach, the other is Maunsell.

0298s - occasionally worked passenger, but I think only a Maunsell 2-P set. However, the East Devon 2-sets used on the Lyme Regis branch acquired a similar Mk1non corridor by 1960, which is a 75-year gap in the same train.

I mentioned the Standard 3 tanks earlier - fairly certain they didn't make it down to Wadebridge though I imagine they were cleared.

 

[norbitonflyer]

However, the East Devon 2-sets used on the Lyme Regis branch acquired a similar Mk1non corridor by 1960, which is a 75-year gap in the same train.

This one?

 

[Gloster]

I've been scouring the terrier and well tank photos on the web to see if they ever hauled Mk 1 stock. Biggest age gap on the same train?
I did find this - that looks like Mark 1 stock on the right. (Could even be a DEMU?)

Four Mark 1 suburban coaches did get used on the Hayling branch, as did the GRP S1000S. (See bloodandcustard for more.)

 

[30907]

This one?

Exactly - or similar, there being 11 identically-formed ones.

 

[Mat17]

Are there any where the coaches are older than the locos?

I've seen a few photos of say a B1 or B17 hauling ex-GCR or ex-MSL carriages.

 

[nw1]

Some of the last built Cep batches were ordered for SWD - and actually delivered there - they worked Alton services very briefly when new - but quickly sent east.

I never knew that. How would that have worked in any case? In 1963, Alton services were portion worked with Portsmouth Direct stoppers as BIL formations.

Were they used only on the faster peak extras, which did not portion work? These left Waterloo around xx17/47 and were fast to Walton as opposed to the regular services which were all from Surbiton. (see 1963 timetable on Timetable World)

This is of course a possible candidate for the thread topic, as you'd have presumably had CEPs and steam-operated services together on the SWML for a short time. Were all the locos West Country/Battle of Britain class or were there older examples? What of the steam-hauled stock?

Staying on the SWD, another possible big age difference is SUBs and 455s, which briefly worked SWD services concurrently during 1983.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If we widen the scope to overseas, the "Petit Train Jaune" line in French Catalonia has units dating from the line's opening in 1908, and more modern Stadler GTW-derived units from around 100 years later.

 

[D7666]

I never knew that. How would that have worked in any case? In 1963, Alton services were portion worked with Portsmouth Direct stoppers as BIL formations.

Were they used only on the faster peak extras, which did not portion work? These left Waterloo around xx17/47 and were fast to Walton as opposed to the regular services which were all from Surbiton. (see 1963 timetable on Timetable World)

I don't know.

IIRC the workings were recorded in contemporary RCTS RO mags but I do not have these myself. The wording "Alton line" services rather than Alton might be better.

The whole matter of why any Cep were assigned to SWD has been a matter of speculation ever since. BR and BR SR continued with somewhat pedantic book keeping accounting of either one for one replacements for accident losses, and quite specific allocation of new builds against projects, be it a new route electrification or a service enhancement. It is entirely possible there was a convenient SWD hole to plug for example in the suburban fleet by ordering Cep then swapping them against say EPB or Sub. Who knows.

But yes they were SWD book keeping and certainly entered SWD traffic.

 

[Strathclyder]

Are there any where the coaches are older than the locos?

I've seen a few photos of say a B1 or B17 hauling ex-GCR or ex-MSL carriages.

I have, saved on my PC, a pic of a Class 21 leaving Aberdeen on a Forres-bound service in July 1964 (originally taken by Michael Mensing) with two LNER-designed coaches in the formation. Chances are those two were built after nationalization, but it's quite the contrast all the same:

 

[Spartacus]

I have saved on my PC a pic of a Class 21 leaving Aberdeen on a Forres-bound service in July 1964 (originally taken by Michael Mensing) with two LNER-designed coaches in the formation. Chances are those two were built after nationalization, but it's quite the contrast all the same:

View attachment 156653

They look like Gresleys so would be before. Some buffets survived into the mid 70s, long enough to receive blue/grey.

 

[D7666]

Mentor. DB975091. 1954 built. 70 years old and could be found alongside new stuff like 730 or 810 or 805 etc.

Again no claim for the absolute answer, but how about claim for current operational main line vehicles difference ?

 

[Strathclyder]

They look like Gresleys so would be before. Some buffets survived into the mid 70s, long enough to receive blue/grey.

I did suspect they were as I was aware that some Gresley buffets lasted long enough to get Blue/Grey (as you point out), but didn't want to leap to a conclusion, so I played it safe lol

 

[WesternLancer]

I must say this thread has generated posts of some very interesting photos - well done to those who have managed to dig those out!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Four Mark 1 suburban coaches did get used on the Hayling branch, as did the GRP S1000S. (See bloodandcustard for more.)

According to Longworth, the only non-corridor Mark 1s (other than multiple units) delivered new to the Southern were 29 seconds, 5 comps and 10 brake seconds, which were all built between 1955/56. Most of them were reallocated to the Western in 1964, which is I think when West-of-Salisbury became Western Region territory.

S1000S was younger - 1963, built using the underframe from a Mark 1 TSO destroyed in the 1957 Lewisham crash (the S suffix is spurious, as it was never a Southern railway vehicle, or even built to SR designs). However, Longworth does not mention it ever venturing further west than Lancing, and it spent most of its working life on the Oxted line and the "Kenny Belle"

I did suspect they were as I was aware that some Gresley buffets lasted long enough to get Blue/Grey (as you point out), but didn't want to leap to a conclusion, so I played it safe lol

a regular sight on the North Country Continental, hauled by class 37s and, until the late 1960s, EM2s.

 

[30907]

According to Longworth, the only non-corridor Mark 1s delivered new to the Southern were 29 seconds, 5 comps and 10 brake seconds, which were all built between 1955/56.

There were way more loose 2nds than needed for Exmouth, hence they were used in East Devon (replacing the ex-SECR 100-seaters) and on the Hayling branch, both already mentioned.

S1000S was younger - 1963, built using the underframe from a Mark 1 TSO destroyed in the 1957 Lewisham crash (the S suffix is spurious, as it was never a Southern railway vehicle, or even built to SR designs). However, Longworth does not mention it ever venturing further west than Lancing, and it spent most of its working life on the Oxted line and the "Kenny Belle"

There's a (late 1963) photo at Havant on the Bloodandcustard site, which also says that it moved to the Belle after Hayling closed.

 

[westernpunk]

They look like Gresleys so would be before. Some buffets survived into the mid 70s, long enough to receive blue/grey.

1049_Dawlish_7-6-75

Class 52 Western 1049 on the Sea Wall between Dawlish and Dawlish Warren, 7/6/75.

www.flickr.com

1049 western monarch 7 6 75 1a85 1700 satonly paig to padd the gresley buffet was a regular on the paignton services

 

[Strathclyder]

1049_Dawlish_7-6-75

Class 52 Western 1049 on the Sea Wall between Dawlish and Dawlish Warren, 7/6/75.

www.flickr.com

1049 western monarch 7 6 75 1a85 1700 satonly paig to padd the gresley buffet was a regular on the paignton services

Close up shot of now-preserved W9135E (the last Gresley buffet in normal service) at Plymouth, image dated 2nd July 1976 (from the jetty - buns in black Flickr stream).

Gresley at Plymouth.

A rarity in the BR era in this colour and on WR as well!

www.flickr.com

Is it sacrilege to say that I rather like Blue/Grey on this? Maybe, but my tastes/preferences have always been a bit 'out there' lol

 

[Magdalia]

They look like Gresleys so would be before. Some buffets survived into the mid 70s, long enough to receive blue/grey.

a regular sight on the North Country Continental, hauled by class 37s and, until the late 1960s, EM2s

1049 western monarch 7 6 75 1a85 1700 satonly paig to padd the gresley buffet was a regular on the paignton services

The last Gresley buffets were withdrawn in 1976, probably just too soon to work alongside HSTs or class 313s. The Western had W9135E built in 1935 which is now in the National Collection. The Eastern had E9115E, E9128E, E9131E and E9132E until 1976.

Close up shot of now-preserved W9135E (the last Gresley buffet in normal service) at Plymouth, image dated 2nd July 1976 (from the jetty - buns in black Flickr stream).

That's only just before withdrawal.

The last Gresley quad arts finished in 1966 some having been built in 1924. In their final days they were hauled by Brush type 2s built in 1960.

The East Coast Joint Stock Royal Saloons 395 and 396 were built in 1908 and lasted into the 1970s, long enough to get hauled by class 47s built in the mid 1960s.

 

[westernpunk]

slightly cheating but whats the newest stock seen at aberystwyth theres going to be quite an age gap there
V o r ex gwr 1923 vintage and whatever the newest stock on the mainline is

 

[Magdalia]

As for the original question, the Western took over the Wenfordbridge line in 1963, before which time Class 22s and dmus would have been a rare sight there. And they wasted no time in replacing the well tanks with panniers

I was looking for something else when I found this in Railway Observer April 1960.

0298 CLASS - Beattie well tank 30586 which has been overhauled at Eastleigh recently has made a leisurely journey to Wadebridge, and was noted on Salisbury shed on 7th March.

30586 was new in 1875 according to BR Database. What might it have passed on its way from Eastleigh to Wadebridge in 1960?

 

[Harvester]

30586 was new in 1875 according to BR Database. What might it have passed on its way from Eastleigh to Wadebridge in 1960?

Assuming it travelled Eastleigh-Salisbury-Exeter-Oakhampton-Launceston-Wadebridge! New Warship and D63** diesel hydraulics around Exeter and maybe diesel shunters on route. Also rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics, which were practically new locos when rebuilt, and perhaps a new 9F?

 

[DelW]

slightly cheating but whats the newest stock seen at aberystwyth theres going to be quite an age gap there
V o r ex gwr 1923 vintage and whatever the newest stock on the mainline is

Well, the ETCS on the Cambrian line means nothing newer than 158s (or 37s for locos). Still quite a good gap though.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The last Gresley buffets were withdrawn in 1976, probably just too soon to work alongside HSTs or class 313s.

The WR one might well have encountered 252001 in service.

Deliveries of 253s started in 1975. I don't know when they entered service, but I saw one in mid August 1976, and there were enough to run an accelerated timetable from October of that year.

 

[Mat17]

Gresleys might have missed the 313s, but 312s were pretty new in 1975, any chance of those crossing paths?

 

[norbitonflyer]

slightly cheating but whats the newest stock seen at aberystwyth theres going to be quite an age gap there
V o r ex gwr 1923 vintage and whatever the newest stock on the mainline is

The VoR was part of British rail until privatised in 1989. Were Class 15x running to Aberyswyth by then?

No 9 was officially a 1924 rebuild of a 1902 locomotive although, like many suich "rebuilds" in the steam era, most components except the numberplates were new.

 

[Mat17]

Just out of interest are there any examples of say 1830s era stock being used in the 1890s/1900s? - Even up the grouping perhaps? So much focus on the transition to BR maybe we're missing earlier examples.

 

[norbitonflyer]

There's a (late 1963) photo at Havant on the Bloodandcustard site, which also says that it moved to the Belle after Hayling closed.

Difficult to tell, but the two Hayling island branch photos may well be of the same rake, in which case we have a picture of a 1963 carriage hauled by an 1872 loco.
S1000S had a white roof instead of the standard black, but because of the way the light is falling it is difficult to tell in the picture of 32670 whether the second carriage has a lighter roof than the first - I suspect not.

The last Gresley buffets were withdrawn in 1976, probably just too soon to work alongside HSTs or class 313s.

Probably too soon. The Gresley's certainly worked the (Kings Cross) Cambridge Buffet car expresses until qiute late in their careers. However, although the 313s started work in 1975, it was only between Moorgate and Drayton Park. AC public services on the GN did not start until December 1976

Gresleys might have missed the 313s, but 312s were pretty new in 1975, any chance of those crossing paths?

The extension of electrification beyond Welwyn to Royston (with class 312s), was in 1978. The only 312s in service in 1975 were on the Great Eastern, on which at the time electrification did not extend on the main lines beyond Bishops Stortford or Colchester



I did think of the Glasgow Subway, but the original G1 stock from 1896 never ran alongside the current G2 stock, although that had been the plan. The Subway was closed between 1977, when the last G1s ran, and 1979 when it re-opened with the "Clockwork Orange" G2s

 

[30907]

30586 was new in 1875 according to BR Database. What might it have passed on its way from Eastleigh to Wadebridge in 1960?

WR diesels have already been mentioned, but Standard 4s (75xxx/76xxx) weren't uncommon in the Salisbury-Eastleigh era, though the Hampshire diesels were a bit newer and certain to have been encountered (so an 82 year gap, or 84 for the centre coach!).

Difficult to tell, but the two Hayling island branch photos may well be of the same rake, in which case we have a picture of a 1963 carriage hauled by an 1872 loco.

1000S had a white roof instead of the standard black, but because of the way the light is falling it is difficult to tell in the picture of 32670 whether the second carriage has a lighter roof than the first - I suspect not.

The photo of 32670 isn't autumnal, even if it's 1963 not 1962, sadly

However, to the left of the battery box below the solebar is a small box which is noticeably lighter on the possible S1000S, as it is in the Nov 63 picture, so I am still inclined to say we have S1000S behind 32670.