Trivia : Which TOCs have consistent train direction?

[bcarmicle]

Which TOCs run their trains made up in such a way that there is a distinct country/London end for their coach letters?

For these, where First Class is at one end (as opposed to in the middle or in multiple places) is First Class always at the London-end, or are there operators which run their First Class at the country-end?

 

[Magdalia]

Which TOCs run their trains made up in such a way that there is a distinct country/London end for their coach letters?

For these, where First Class is at one end (as opposed to in the middle or in multiple places) is First Class always at the London-end, or are there operators which run their First Class at the country-end?

Great Northern class 387s all have First Class at the country end.

London end/country end does not apply for Thameslink.

 

[JonathanH]

London end/country end does not apply for Thameslink.

The 700s certainly aren't all the same way round either, although this effectively only dictates which middle coach the universal toilet is in.

For the original question

c2c 357s are all kept the same way round

SWR 159s and 444s are timetabled to always have first class at the London end.

 

[Teddyward]

720s are meant to have DTLW London end. Rare occasions this is not the case. Doesn’t really matter as long as platform staff are aware for ramp positioning.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Which TOCs run their trains made up in such a way that there is a distinct country/London end for their coach letters?

For these, where First Class is at one end (as opposed to in the middle or in multiple places) is First Class always at the London-end, or are there operators which run their First Class at the country-end?

Avanti keep their First Class facing London (including on double Super Voyagers).

 

[bramling]

Great Northern class 387s all have First Class at the country end.

There have been odd occasions with GN 387s have run the opposite way round. Indeed when they first came over it was all over the place.

The 700s certainly aren't all the same way round either, although this effectively only dictates which middle coach the universal toilet is in.

The 700s are slightly curious, in that the 700/0s are always being turned, however the 700/1s turn rarely.

Indeed I’m not entirely clear where the 700/1s get turned. The only potential places I can think of are Brighton/Hove/Preston Park, Lewes (do 700s ever divert that way?), or a couple of possibilities between Blackfriars and East Croydon.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Indeed I’m not entirely clear where the 700/1s get turned. The only potential places I can think of are Brighton/Hove/Preston Park, Lewes (do 700s ever divert that way?), or a couple of possibilities between Blackfriars and East Croydon.

You can't turn using the Brighton / Hove / Preston Park triangle for anything longer than 4 coaches; the only Brighton platform which can access both the Hove route and the lines heading north and/or to Lewes is Platform 3. And the connection to the Hove line turns off the (potentially 12-coach) platform just after the 4-carriage point counting from the buffers. There's an intermediate signal there to allow for anything within that southern 4-coach area to be signalled in either direction.

It can be done via Lewes and Brighton however.

 

[Bayum]

Surprised no one has mentioned LNER yet.
225 sets usually have the 91 at the country end and the DVT/first class at London end. The Azumas tend to stick to the same concept with first class at the London end.

 

[Magdalia]

The 700s are slightly curious, in that the 700/0s are always being turned, however the 700/1s turn rarely.

Class 700/0 are turned every time they go round the Sutton/Wimbledon loop.

There have been odd occasions with GN 387s have run the opposite way round. Indeed when they first came over it was all over the place.

There was a concerted effort to get the GN class 387 fleet all "same way round" just after through running to Kings Lynn started in summer 2017.

More recently 387302 and 387305 arrived "wrong way round" but were turned last September by running ecs from/to Hornsey via Crystal Palace.

 

[bramling]

You can't turn using the Brighton / Hove / Preston Park triangle for anything longer than 4 coaches; the only Brighton platform which can access both the Hove route and the lines heading north and/or to Lewes is Platform 3. And the connection to the Hove line turns off the (potentially 12-coach) platform just after the 4-carriage point counting from the buffers. There's an intermediate signal there to allow for anything within that southern 4-coach area to be signalled in either direction.

It can be done via Lewes and Brighton however.

Interesting, I hadn’t realised Hove was so restrictive.

So it seems Lewes may well be how the 700/1s occasionally turn, as 700s have certainly been there.

 

[Dr Day]

Not aware of any standard formation direction on Cross Country, and indeed even the data feeds for the platform information screens and Real Time Trains are regularly wrong. GWR are fairly consistent in First Class at the London end, and more reliable in terms of advising 'reverse' formations on their long distance services.

 

[LBMPSB]

Class 700/0 and 700/1 were designed so it didn't matter if they were turned as to where the Disbled Coaches were located on the train, always in the centre, due to Mayor Khan's insistance on level acces in centre London, hence 'harrington humps" through the Core section. As for 700/1 turning, I too have noticed several that have been turned. How I don't know, unless they were delivered that way originally.

 

[A S Leib]

How consistent are Sleeper and the ECML open-access services?

 

[Efini92]

Avanti keep their First Class facing London (including on double Super Voyagers).

It’s worth noting that sometimes, normally after a period of disruption, a number of sets can end up the wrong way round.

 

[bramling]

Class 700/0 and 700/1 were designed so it didn't matter if they were turned as to where the Disbled Coaches were located on the train, always in the centre, due to Mayor Khan's insistance on level acces in centre London, hence 'harrington humps" through the Core section. As for 700/1 turning, I too have noticed several that have been turned. How I don't know, unless they were delivered that way originally.

Not sure if the 700/1s were delivered that way, however they do turn occasionally.

 

[Haywain]

due to Mayor Khan's insistance on level acces in centre London, hence 'harrington humps" through the Core section

I have no idea whether the London mayor played any part in the level boarding provision but it provides a major operational benefit in removing the faffing with ramps that would be otherwise required and could quickly disrupt services through the core.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not aware of any standard formation direction on Cross Country, and indeed even the data feeds for the platform information screens and Real Time Trains are regularly wrong.

XC reverse on route far too often, eg at Reading and/or New Street, it would be extremely difficult to have a standard direction. AIUI getting the data loaded initially is done with a phone call at start of service, and is a fairly unreliable process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is possible for a Pendolino or Voyager to end up reversed if there are diversions that involve going into New St one way and out the other, or a few other diversion possibilities done only one way I think. It's rare, though, and so Avanti are pretty much always first class London end (plus in the middle for a double Voyager set).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It’s worth noting that sometimes, normally after a period of disruption, a number of sets can end up the wrong way round.

Yes but usually they fix it (don't know how easy it is to fix it).
I've been on a reversed set before, they make it clearly known.

 

[1Q18]

You can't turn using the Brighton / Hove / Preston Park triangle for anything longer than 4 coaches; the only Brighton platform which can access both the Hove route and the lines heading north and/or to Lewes is Platform 3. And the connection to the Hove line turns off the (potentially 12-coach) platform just after the 4-carriage point counting from the buffers. There's an intermediate signal there to allow for anything within that southern 4-coach area to be signalled in either direction.

It can be done via Lewes and Brighton however.

Theoretically formations up to eight-car can be turned via Hove, using the connection from Lovers Walk depot into Brighton platform 2. Obviously not for units in passenger service, and I doubt it's ever been used for a 700!

 

[Haywain]

Not sure if the 700/1s were delivered that way, however they do turn occasionally.

I would imagine that there are places in south London where they could be turned.

 

[AlbertBeale]

You can't turn using the Brighton / Hove / Preston Park triangle for anything longer than 4 coaches; the only Brighton platform which can access both the Hove route and the lines heading north and/or to Lewes is Platform 3. And the connection to the Hove line turns off the (potentially 12-coach) platform just after the 4-carriage point counting from the buffers. There's an intermediate signal there to allow for anything within that southern 4-coach area to be signalled in either direction.

It can be done via Lewes and Brighton however.

Interesting, I hadn’t realised Hove was so restrictive.

So it seems Lewes may well be how the 700/1s occasionally turn, as 700s have certainly been there.

This is why - assuming my memories of generations back are accurate - the occasional direct service, via Brighton, between the West Coastway and East Coastway lines, could only be 4 carriages long (and could only use P3). I don't think I'm dreaming ... I believe there were once east-west services through Brighton, maybe half a century or more ago.

Theoretically formations up to eight-car can be turned via Hove, using the connection from Lovers Walk depot into Brighton platform 2. Obviously not for units in passenger service, and I doubt it's ever been used for a 700!

Ah - yes! I overlooked that. Though as you say, only using P2, and only 8 carriages, and running all the way through the depot/sidings to reach the main line just before the Hove Connector and Preston Park. But this certainly doesn't - even in theory - provide a West Coastway to/from East Coastway link! (Assuming my memory of this having been timetabled once upon a time, I'd like to see a revival - there are occasions when it would be useful for me; however I realise that the scheduling of an incoming westbound to P3 needing to cross the whole station throat might be less than easy...)

 

[Efini92]

Yes but usually they fix it (don't know how easy it is to fix it).
I've been on a reversed set before, they make it clearly known.

They normally get turned around Birmingham.

 

[D7666]

700/1 - not sure now but - question not a statement - do TL drivers still have route knowledge via Lewes ? In FCC / 319s days there was a booked ECS turn that went that way exactly for route retention but I have a suspicion this nicety is not part of the current enterprise's way of doing things. I might be wrong.

700/1 can get turned but as all agree - rarely. In earlier 700s days a very small number of 700/1 DID work in services via Wimbledon loop during service disruption but to my knowledge has not happened recent years. Of course, if the same unit did that all the way to SAC and then all the back again it unravels itself, but I doubt any 700/1 would have lasted that long doing it (if only because FLU can not turn back at SAC unless it runs forward at least to Harpenden). Before anyone howls in protest about platform lengths, ASDO deals with that when a FLU stops at a RLU station RLU marker board. (Or at least it does when they call at Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town all of which I have been on as a passenger.)

As posted upthread, there are numerous locations in south London where a 700/1 could theoretically get physically turned - but how many of those are left once you consider TL route knowledge ? These days if route A B C form a triangle, knowing A to B and A to C only does not permit B to C no matter how short it is, even one signal block.)

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

745s are almost always first class London end

 

[DanNCL]

Surprised no one has mentioned LNER yet.
225 sets usually have the 91 at the country end and the DVT/first class at London end. The Azumas tend to stick to the same concept with first class at the London end.

It’s no longer possible to turn a 225 set in service now they no longer run to Newcastle. Can still be done ECS via the bridges in Newcastle if required but the last time that happened was 3 years ago.

There’s limited booked workings in ‘reverse’ formation for 800s, sets being turned both via the Bridges in Newcastle and a couple of different routes in Yorkshire.
For example, the 1818 Aberdeen - Leeds is (or was) booked to leave Newcastle via the High Level Bridge, run in reverse to York, then run via Castleford to get it to Leeds the correct way round again.
Diversions between Leeds and Doncaster via Hambleton also put sets the wrong way round, and there’s at least one weekly service that’s booked to do that for route retention.

 

[Snow1964]

GWR are fairly consistent in First Class at the London end, and more reliable in terms of advising 'reverse' formations on their long distance services.

Only on London services, not uncommon on other longer services eg Cardiff-Portsmouth to have formations like E-D-A-B-C with letter sequence going both up and down

eg todays 1F00 was C-B-A-A-B-C where same letter is used twice in different order

Realtime Trains | 1F00 0501 Bristol Temple Meads to Westbury | 07/05/2024

Real-time train running information for 1F00 0501 departure from Bristol Temple Meads to Westbury on 07/05/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[dk1]

745s are almost always first class London end

I hate to pop your bubble but no they are not.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I hate to pop your bubble but no they are not.

Oh. Every time I've seen it they've been like that. I have seen reverse formation on journey check quite a few times

 

[dk1]

Oh. Every time I've seen it they've been like that. I have seen reverse formation on journey check quite a few times

It happens quite regularly mate. All down to stabling overnight at Parkeston Quay as well as moves to/from Norwich Victoria via the Wensum curve.