Update to TOC RMT Dispute - RDG provide more information on proposed dispute resolution process

[ainsworth74]

The RDG have finally furnished the RMT with more information about the proposed dispute resolution process which has been shared to RMT members with the quoted email below. Attached to this post is that proposed process and the accompanying offer letter from the RDG which were linked from the email.

DEFEND JOBS, PAY & CONDITIONS - TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES

Your union has today received further details from the Rail Delivery Group providing an updated offer and a Dispute Resolution Process document, which can be found here and here.

Your union's National Executive Committee has given initial consideration but has major concerns about the contents of the RDG proposals.

I am therefore providing you with the information so that discussions among our membership can take place in all union forums ahead of the NEC considering this matter further.

I will of course provide an update after the NEC has taken a decision next week.

 

[Boski]

same offer as last time just in different wording. Also little parts of the previous deal seem to be missing. Like points such as tocs can decide if dispatchers are kept seperate etc etc.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

I really don’t think it’s going to get any better than this…

 

[matthewjohnson]

Two weeks after next week is the Coronation Bank Holiday...

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Two weeks after next week is the Coronation Bank Holiday...

Didn't ASLEF and the RMT say that they'd be leaving the Coronation weekend alone?

 

[father_jack]

Pay has gone down before it even went up

 

[matthewjohnson]

Didn't ASLEF and the RMT say that they'd be leaving the Coronation weekend alone?

I'd be surprised if they did anything then tbh. I'm only bothered about getting to Luton away on the Monday really!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I can see this one going to a membership vote if I'm honest, the wording has given more clarity to me than previous, and for want of better word, is tighter. Less scope to take the biscuit with poorly written terms.

Doesn't seem to be asking for my TOC to potentially give up that much, though it's interesting that rosters and movement of hours seem to not be in there other than 3hr max moves which we have currently. The week of spares wil be a sticking point possibly.

It's not a great or even good deal by any stretch of the imagination, but it may seem acceptable to a number of members.

 

[CFRAIL]

The week of spares with the accompanying rest day move (with perhaps a few days notice) is a big sticking point for me personally. The tone of the RMT emails didn't seem to change and it'll go before the NEC to decide. I didn't think they'd budge and give the members a vote, but I now think that perhaps they may do. There was a lot of chat last time how colleagues thought we should've been given a vote. The reality is that any IA (particularly strike action) would be less effective now that NR have "settled"

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The week of spares with the accompanying rest day move (with perhaps a few days notice) is a big sticking point for me personally. The tone of the RMT emails didn't seem to change and it'll go before the NEC to decide. I didn't think they'd budge and give the members a vote, but I now think that perhaps they may do. There was a lot of chat last time how colleagues thought we should've been given a vote. The reality is that any IA (particularly strike action) would be less effective now that NR have "settled"

It would be nice if the NEC told us which bits they want changing so we all know what the sticking points are. Up to this point the offer has been a smack in the face, this seems to be closer to an agreeable compromise. But we're still at the hands of the NEC and their games.

Mood at the depot overall still seems to be reject outright, but there's likely to never be an unconditional offer ever again so I'm not sure where the middle ground is.

 

[Horizon22]

Looks like the aim is is to go for committed Sundays across the board…except existing staff can opt out so this could result in potentially minimal to zero difference on staff availability.

There’s still lots of vagueness (and duplication!) around CSA1 to CSA5 but perhaps the TOCs individually would adapt that as makes sense.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Looks like the aim is is to go for committed Sundays across the board…except existing staff can opt out so this could result in potentially minimal to zero difference on staff availability.

There’s still lots of vagueness (and duplication!) around CSA1 to CSA5 but perhaps the TOCs individually would adapt that as makes sense.

I guess with this being a framework rather than a finalised offer, there will aways be bits that are ambiguous or not well defined. This is where (hopefully) negotiations take over at TOC/local levels.

 

[158801]

How can you ever have a week's holiday of you have to work the Sunday beforehand?

Surely, annual leave should run Sunday to Saturday.

This is the sticking point for me - not being able to guarantee having a 7 day holiday and maybe only getting 6. What if I book a week in benidorm for October only for the roster to change and they more say that I'm rostered to work that day.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

How can you ever have a week's holiday of you have to work the Sunday beforehand?

Surely, annual leave should run Sunday to Saturday.

This is the sticking point for me - not being able to guarantee having a 7 day holiday and maybe only getting 6. What if I book a week in benidorm for October only for the roster to change and they more say that I'm rostered to work that day.

For us, being on commited Sundays, you know what Sundays you are booked/required to work based on our link (so 60 weeks worth).

Whilst we cannot book off a Sunday, we can make ourselves unavailable and never really any issue getting it off. Though you could obviously have no cover and therefore are required to work it. We have train crew who worked zero Sundays in the last 2 years covered by the equalisation sheet for instance.

Sundays in the middle of 2 week block are blocked from being rostered even if it's a booked day.

If Sundays were part of the holiday week, then more days entitlement would need to be added which they won't do.

 

[142blue]

So nothing new, no real improvement

Am I reading that a new entrants salary for a guard would be £24k

I see the issues being weeks of work where you are basically expected to be there as and when you are told

So spare is basically GPR disguised

Station groups? How far are you expected to go, how do you get there, is their parking, what if there is no public transport home

Get it rejected

 

[LowLevel]

For us, being on commited Sundays, you know what Sundays you are booked/required to work based on our link (so 60 weeks worth).

Whilst we cannot book off a Sunday, we can make ourselves unavailable and never really any issue getting it off. Though you could obviously have no cover and therefore are required to work it. We have train crew who worked zero Sundays in the last 2 years covered by the equalisation sheet for instance.

Sundays in the middle of 2 week block are blocked from being rostered even if it's a booked day.

If Sundays were part of the holiday week, then more days entitlement would need to be added which they won't do.

At the moment though our T&Cs say that the Sundays before and after, as well as in the middle, of the A/L booked weeks, can be given up without penalty. This would appear to remove that, albeit probably not for us as we already have a committed Sunday agreement.

Unless they get rid of the stuff about rest day patterns effectively being randomised every time there's a cycle change I would never vote for it. I went to a lot if effort to have matching RD patterns with my partner and that would make it much more difficult.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

At the moment though our T&Cs say that the Sundays before and after, as well as in the middle, of the A/L booked weeks, can be given up without penalty. This would appear to remove that, albeit probably not for us as we already have a committed Sunday agreement.

Unless they get rid of the stuff about rest day patterns effectively being randomised every time there's a cycle change I would never vote for it. I went to a lot if effort to have matching RD patterns with my partner and that would make it much more difficult.

Agreed on the rest day pattern. And I'm pretty sure your Sunday agreement will remain as it says where there is already a robust agreement it will remain as is. I'd like that Sunday rule at my place please

 

[lammergeier]

How can you ever have a week's holiday of you have to work the Sunday beforehand?

Surely, annual leave should run Sunday to Saturday.

This is the sticking point for me - not being able to guarantee having a 7 day holiday and maybe only getting 6. What if I book a week in benidorm for October only for the roster to change and they more say that I'm rostered to work that day.

We have committed Sunday working and although I'd prefer it properly in the working week, it's not a big deal and certainly not a hill to die on. If we have an annual leave week, we can have either the Sunday before or after off, guaranteed. Just go not available and even if there's no cover (which there always is) it is granted. If we have two or more weeks AL then the middle Sunday plus one either before or after is guaranteed.

Whether or not this sort of guarantee would apply would, presumably, be up to each individual company council to negotiate after implication of the offer.

For me, the week of spares would be more of an issue than committed Sunday working.

 

[KM1991]

The reality is that there is no easy answer for the RMT. The negotiators know in their hearts that this is as “good” as an offer as it’s going to get. And it’s not a good offer, just to be clear.

We’ve been in a dispute for almost a year now, most of the T&C changes they wanted from last June are still in the document today. How many strike days has there been? We need to accept it’s not going to get better.

Some TOCs stand to lose a lot, whilst some will lose very little. This is why this offer needs to go to a vote so that the sticking points can negotiated on a TOC by TOC basis under the 2nd phase.

 

[CFRAIL]

A further consideration right now is that the RMT Wang members to vote in the re-ballot for all the obvious reasons but seem reluctant to give the membership a vote. I accept there are some grey areas and some stand to lose more than others. But surely a TOC by TOC vote seems to be the sensible way forward to breaking the deadlock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless they get rid of the stuff about rest day patterns effectively being randomised every time there's a cycle change I would never vote for it. I went to a lot if effort to have matching RD patterns with my partner and that would make it much more difficult.

I'd have more of a problem with that than I would with destaffing ticket offices and similar (provided a quality redundancy and redeployment package was provided). I'd go as far as to call that a red line if it was me.

 

[158801]

As for a week of spares and then moving your shifts and rest days - it needs to be made clear the frequency of this.

1 week in 20 - not bad
1 week in 3 - no way

 

[Msq71423]

Unless I'm missing something, the new document no longer makes any reference to ticket office closures (which the previous document did)?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Unless I'm missing something, the new document no longer makes any reference to ticket office closures (which the previous document did)?

Integral Principle No1

 

[Msq71423]

Yes, which covers the multi skilled station grade role. But there is no longer any explicit reference to closure of ticket offices, which there was previously?

 

[whoosh]

The depot/link average turn length will determine the number of rest days in the roster.

Goodbye four day week if the computer spits out short jobs for your depot.

Movement for a weeks’ work: there is no restriction in movement where a week’s work consists of 3 or more days rostered. Where this is not the case daily movement arrangements apply. Spare turns will be grouped together whenever possible, in the link structure to form full weeks of spare turns, Full weeks spares will take the rest day pattern of the line of work covered.

So for a rôle which already has unsocial hours, you can be messed around with no parameters when they roster you three spare turns in a row. Which they say they will.

Absolute garbage.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Yes, which covers the multi skilled station grade role. But there is no longer any explicit reference to closure of ticket offices, which there was previously?

The biggest problem for ticket offices is the smartphone though. When you can buy your ticket from an app, it eliminates the risk of missing your train due to being stuck in the queue behind the chairperson of the National Dawdling Society.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Could someone remind me, please, which are the TOCs that would be affected should there be any further strike action in this dispute?

 

[Msq71423]

Could someone remind me, please, which are the TOCs that would be affected should there be any further strike action in this dispute?

These are listed on page 11 of the new document attached in post 1 above.

They are
Avanti West Coast
C2C
Chiltern
CrossCountry
EMR
Thameslink
Greater Anglia
GWR
LNER
Northern
South Eastern
South Western
TPE
West Midlands Trains

 

[Railwayowl80]

Only read a few things currently my contract I’m on 6 months full pay 6 months half pay for sick pay how does a 12 month rolling year sick work?