Used 16-17 instead of 16-25 railcard

[Ishray]

Hey,

I took the GWR train today from london to exeter and used the wrong rail card. I always use the 16-25 railcard as I am 22 but I put 16-17 this time instead. It was a mistake but the train conductor took down a whole page of notes and interrogated me. He said I’ll hear back in a couple of weeks and I might have to either pay a fine or go to court.
What is the usual fine for this and will I go to court for this?

 

[Brissle Girl]

You are likely to be offered an out of court settlement, which could be the cost of an Anytime single £149.50, together with an administration fee of around £150 to avoid it going to court.

Presumably the investigator won’t find any other such purchases using the wrong railcard when they check your account (which they will typically do)?

 

[Haywain]

What is the usual fine for this and will I go to court for this?

You are unlikely to go to court as GWR usually settle without court action. You won't, technically, pay a fine in those circumstances but you will have to pay the outstanding fare and GWR's admin costs - this could be up to around £250, depending on what they calculate to be the fare owed and whether you have done this on other occasions.

 

[Ishray]

You are unlikely to go to court as GWR usually settle without court action. You won't, technically, pay a fine in those circumstances but you will have to pay the outstanding fare and GWR's admin costs - this could be up to around £250, depending on what they calculate to be the fare owed and whether you have done this on other occasions.

Thanks for your response. I was a bit taken aback and got annoyed so I asked the inspector why this was such a big deal and how I didn’t understand why I can’t just pay off the difference now. He noted this down as I think he was noting down our whole conversation. Do you think this will negatively impact my case?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Unlikely to, unless you were being particularly rude or abusive to him.

 

[Haywain]

Do you think this will negatively impact my case?

No. He was noting down your conversation as this can be used to make a decision about prosecution and can form part of the evidence in the case. As I said, that is unlikely to happen. Do you actually have a valid 16-25 Railcard, and have you previously purchased with the wrong discount?

 

[Ishray]

No. He was noting down your conversation as this can be used to make a decision about prosecution and can form part of the evidence in the case. As I said, that is unlikely to happen. Do you actually have a valid 16-25 Railcard, and have you previously purchased with the wrong discount?

I do have a valid 16-25 railcard and I’ve never purchased the wrong discount before. I usually book through Trainline and this was the first time I put down 16-17

 

[Western Sunset]

Having two distinct railcards, but both starting at age 16, must lead to confusion for some ticket purchasers.

 

[Haywain]

I do have a valid 16-25 railcard and I’ve never purchased the wrong discount before. I usually book through Trainline and this was the first time I put down 16-17

In which case this should prove to be a fairly easy case for GWR to deal with. For now, you will have to wait until you receive a letter from GWR when they will ask for your comments. At that point you can reply with a letter of the type recommended in many other threads on here, which is basically an apology, an acceptance of your error and a request that they allow you to settle. What I think may work in your favour is that you have a valid railcard and haven't done this before, so it is more demonstrably an error - with a bit of luck this might mean they don't ask for the full fare of £149.50 but a smaller amount. However, that's a little way off yet and now all you can do is play the waiting game.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for your response. I was a bit taken aback and got annoyed so I asked the inspector why this was such a big deal and how I didn’t understand why I can’t just pay off the difference now. He noted this down as I think he was noting down our whole conversation. Do you think this will negatively impact my case?

Staff probably see it as a big problem because so many people make the same mistake, as you can see from other people’s threads in this forum. We probably only hear about a small minority of cases. The problem is, I think, that if the normal response by staff was simply to charge the difference between the amount paid and the correct fare, then there’d be a heck of a lot more cases of people either choosing the wrong railcard, or using a railcard discount with no railcard held at all.

 

[Brissle Girl]

When you get the letter I would certainly stress in your reply that this is an isolated mistake, and maybe somehow show evidence from your Trainline account that preceding transactions consistently used the correct discount.

 

[RPI]

Staff probably see it as a big problem because so many people make the same mistake, as you can see from other people’s threads in this forum. We probably only hear about a small minority of cases. The problem is, I think, that if the normal response by staff was simply to charge the difference between the amount paid and the correct fare, then there’d be a heck of a lot more cases of people either choosing the wrong railcard, or using a railcard discount with no railcard held at all.

Spot on and it's also so strange that no-one ever seems to make the mistake the other way around (applying a 16-25 discount when they hold a 16-17 saver)

 

[Haywain]

Spot on and it's also so strange that no-one ever seems to make the mistake the other way around (applying a 16-25 discount when they hold a 16-17 saver)

Or is it just that we don't hear about such errors because they are not seen as suspicious?

 

[Buzby]

Having two distinct railcards, but both starting at age 16, must lead to confusion for some ticket purchasers.

Couldn’t agree more. It is often a drop-down (and truncate) selection and whilst not an irrelevance, is pretty low down in importance of selecting the correct day and time of the journey(s). NR seem to acknowledge that their station names can cause confusion by altering the display to highlight the difference. When Neilston High was renamed just Neilston, it was claimed this looked similar to Newton when displayed on the LED screens - apparently some customers ended up at the wrong destination.

NR changed the display so it used square brackets < > making it look ‘less similar, Neilston then became <Neilston> from then on, the only Scottish station to be described in this way. With so much at stake with Railcards - and a possible criminal conviction, Why they don’t use <16-17> to differentiate from 16-25 and perhaps do more to help the purchaser - other than rebrand it 17-25?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Spot on and it's also so strange that no-one ever seems to make the mistake the other way around (applying a 16-25 discount when they hold a 16-17 saver)

I’m sure they do, all the time, but in that case they’ve overpaid so the railway- rightly- will just consider that to be their tough luck. Some staff might point out their error, but I’m sure plenty wouldn’t.

Having two railcards with almost identical names is utterly ridiculous. But no doubt GWR will see it as a nice way of charging the OP for a new full price single and a £150 “administration fee”, which is what I would expect the OP to be offered in this case.

 

[mangyiscute]

I don't know why the 16-25 isn't just changed to be an 18-25 railcard since there's (almost?) no reason for anyone under 18 to buy one.
At the same time, since there are clear cases where people are making this "mistake" when selecting a railcard as a genuine means to save money, telling people "you can save 25% of the fare and if you get caught you just have to pay this extra" means everyone will start doing it, because why wouldn't they?
Unfortunately this means when it is a genuine accident the result is quite a bit more harsh than perhaps deserved, but that's just tough luck.

 

[Haywain]

I don't know why the 16-25 isn't just changed to be an 18-25 railcard since there's (almost?) no reason for anyone under 18 to buy one

Unfortunately, the 16-17 Saver isn't a truly national product, because it isn't valid on Scotrail and Caledonian Sleepers. This means that there is a use case for a 16/17 year old needing to also hold a 16-25 Railcard for a journey including those TOCs and others. It is a daft situation that results from the devolution of control of some parts of the railway.

 

[Titfield]

Couldn’t agree more. It is often a drop-down (and truncate) selection and whilst not an irrelevance, is pretty low down in importance of selecting the correct day and time of the journey(s). NR seem to acknowledge that their station names can cause confusion by altering the display to highlight the difference. When Neilston High was renamed just Neilston, it was claimed this looked similar to Newton when displayed on the LED screens - apparently some customers ended up at the wrong destination.

NR changed the display so it used square brackets < > making it look ‘less similar, Neilston then became <Neilston> from then on, the only Scottish station to be described in this way. With so much at stake with Railcards - and a possible criminal conviction, Why they don’t use <16-17> to differentiate from 16-25 and perhaps do more to help the purchaser - other than rebrand it 17-25?

Yes I absolutely agree that having these two very similar cards seems to be inviting mistakes, the consequences of which are born by the passenger.

As regards station names Ware (Herts) and Wareham (Dorset) are shown with their counties in brackets presumably to try and avoid confusing them.

 

[father_jack]

Spot on and it's also so strange that no-one ever seems to make the mistake the other way around (applying a 16-25 discount when they hold a 16-17 saver)

Or how many children accidentally buy adult tickets, particularly from TVMs or online rather than the opposite....... (as I'm sure you know @RPI )

 

[WesternLancer]

Spot on and it's also so strange that no-one ever seems to make the mistake the other way around (applying a 16-25 discount when they hold a 16-17 saver)

Yes, often think this - tho they would presumably not get threatened with prosecution since they would have overpaid - but of the people on the forum you would be one to give a clear idea of how many cases of such errors you notice or have to point out when people have over paid in those circs....
sounds like that is, lets say, not a big part of the job?

Wonder if even TIL subcontracted revenue protection people would report people for overpaying if it was backed up by the wrong railcard. Probably would...

 

[MotCO]

Yes, often think this - tho they would presumably not get threatened with prosecution since they would have overpaid - but of the people on the forum you would be one to give a clear idea of how many cases of such errors you notice or have to point out when people have over paid in those circs....
sounds like that is, lets say, not a big part of the job?

Wonder if even TIL subcontracted revenue protection people would report people for overpaying if it was backed up by the wrong railcard. Probably would...

But isn't a 16-25 ticket purchased alongside a 16-17 railcard technically wrong, and therefore invalidating the ticket? In theory, this would be a reportable offence.

 

[WesternLancer]

But isn't a 16-25 ticket purchased alongside a 16-17 railcard technically wrong, and therefore invalidating the ticket? In theory, this would be a reportable offence.

Yes, I would agree that it is the wrong ticket as you say - so I wonder how often it actually get s reported - what with it resulting in paying more for the ticket., and how often people make that mistake.

But we should not go off topic on this one too much as not much help to the OP and the advice they will need in order to avoid prosecution.

 

[387masterrace]

Staff probably see it as a big problem because so many people make the same mistake, as you can see from other people’s threads in this forum. We probably only hear about a small minority of cases. The problem is, I think, that if the normal response by staff was simply to charge the difference between the amount paid and the correct fare, then there’d be a heck of a lot more cases of people either choosing the wrong railcard, or using a railcard discount with no railcard held at all.

The issue is, from my (very anecdotal) observation of my friends in their late teens/early 20s, many people deliberately make the same mistake.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Or is it just that we don't hear about such errors because they are not seen as suspicious?

No, it's because it doesn't happen.

I check tickets and railcards, rigorously, every day at work. I don't think I have ever seen anyone with a 16-17 Saver select 16-25 Railcard by mistake. If I have, I certainly don't remember and could certainly count the instances on the fingers of one hand.

Strangely, however, it is an almost daily occurence to find at least one person with a 16-25 Railcard who has mistakenly, just this once, purely by accident, selected a 16-17 Saver discount instead.

It's always someone accidentally selecting a cheaper ticket or discount. Never the other way round. (The only exception being irregular travellers who unnecessarily purchase Anytime tickets at Weekends from TVMs).

 

[Brissle Girl]

who has mistakenly, just this once, purely by accident,

… until their purchase history is examined, possibly.

 

[LAX54]

Do away with 16 - 17 and it's discount and just have the 16 - 25 Railcard , the 'confusion' then ends

 

[_toommm_]

Couldn’t agree more. It is often a drop-down (and truncate) selection and whilst not an irrelevance, is pretty low down in importance of selecting the correct day and time of the journey(s).

But surely the passenger should take responsibility to select the correct one?

I recently travelled to Norway, and saw they offer student discount. Of course I thought that’s great and I was eligible with just my student card, but I made sure I had the correct proof with me and it turns out I didn’t, so I didn’t avail myself of the discount. Similarly, a passenger in the UK should make sure they have a 16-17 Railcard if they choose it, a 16-25 Railcard if they choose it etc.

 

[mrmartin]

But surely the passenger should take responsibility to select the correct one?

I recently travelled to Norway, and saw they offer student discount. Of course I thought that’s great and I was eligible with just my student card, but I made sure I had the correct proof with me and it turns out I didn’t, so I didn’t avail myself of the discount. Similarly, a passenger in the UK should make sure they have a 16-17 Railcard if they choose it, a 16-25 Railcard if they choose it etc.

I totally agree with your sentiments, but what makes it difference is the threat of court action if you get it wrong. It's a completely disproportionate response.

It would be like Ryanair taking you to court if you selected a 10kg bag instead of 20kg, you got it there and it weighed 15kg. Obviously the customer is in the wrong and even if they don't like it they need to pay the correct amount, but on the railway it's the way that 'mistakes' quickly/instantly escalate into court action that gets me.

 

[Hadders]

Do away with 16 - 17 and it's discount and just have the 16 - 25 Railcard , the 'confusion' then ends

Are you suggesting that 16 and 17 year olds lose their 50% discount and have to put up with a 34% one instead? I don't think that would be popular.
Alternatively, would you rather the 50% discount was extended to 16-25 Railcards? If so, where is the funding for it coming from?

 

[Starmill]

But isn't a 16-25 ticket purchased alongside a 16-17 railcard technically wrong, and therefore invalidating the ticket? In theory, this would be a reportable offence.

Yes and this is likely to result in being charged a Penalty Fare if you're stopped by an authorised collector and travelled from a relevant station. There have been cases of prosecution threatened where the wrong railcard type is in use even though the price paid isn't lower.