Venice Night Jet arrival in Stuttgart

[Sieni]

Planning on travelling Venice-London on Night Jet sleeper from Venice to Stuttgart then Eurostar from Paris Nord.

We're planning on getting 16:12 out of Paris Nord to London, but could go later.

We have two options:

(A) Short changeover (33 min) in Stuttgart. Sleeper is due in 08:38; Service to Paris Est leaves 09:11. Long changeover (3h 39m) in Paris
(B) Long changeover in Stuttgart (2hr 15m). Service to Paris Est leaves 10:52. Have 1h 59m in Paris to get from Est to Nord and check in.

The problem with (B) is that the 10:52 is the last direct service Stuttgart-Paris. So if it does not run we are stuck in Stuttgart.

(A) has a short changeover in Stuttgart, but at least it's in-station. And if the 09:11 doesn't run or if we miss the connection then at least we have the 10:52 to fall back on. This is what we think is best.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the Night Jet arrivals in Stuttgart. Are they habitually late? What's Stuttgart station like? Is it compact and easy to change? Is this short changeover very risky?

Take the risk on the short changeover, or take the risk on riding the last departure to Paris from Stuttgart?

 

[30907]

1. This site may help you evaluate the delays
https://www.zugfinder.net/en/train-NJ_236
As you can see, punctuality is reasonable but it can go pear-shaped- quite typical for sleeper trains.

2. Stuttgart station is a dead-end terminus so changing platforms isn't difficult BUT it is undergoing a major rebuild so not quite as good

3. Barring a strike or severe weather, the 1052 is pretty certain to run, and if it doesn't you are entitled to be rerouted even if you have a booked-train-only ticket.
(Note - there is a 1452 to Paris, but obviously you'd need to be booked on a later ES to London.)

4. I would take the Man in Seat61's advice, which is to take the later train from Stuttgart (there's a pleasant park right by the station -platform 16 side) then the 17.12 Eurostar (I'd risk the 1612).

5. BTW if you have a railpass or similar, there are various alternative routes for Stuttgart-London in emergency.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Stuttgart is a bit of mess at the moment with the much delayed rebuilding still ongoing and last minute changes of platforms, so the connection is rather risky, I'd be inclined to plan to have a leisurely breakfast there and go for the 10:52. You can walk from Est to Nord in Paris in 20mins, so 1h 59m is more than ample. If the 10:52 does not run, your fall back option would be to go on to Mannheim and pick up a Frankfurt to Paris service there, but that depends on the ticket / pass you have.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I agree that the Stuttgart building works make it a bit of a pain; in your situation I'd be liable to do as others say and add time in Stuttgart even though there's less time in Paris. In my experience, 1h59m between scheduled arrival at Paris Est and departure from Paris Nord is still more than adequate. In fact I'd probably feel pretty comfortable with much less time than that; it's only 10 minutes round the corner to Gare de Nord, even with luggage (if you know where you're going); and providing you're in the check-in queue 30 mins before departure, you've played by the rules and Eurostar will look after you. If - despite allowing sufficient time - railway problems mean you're late for Eurostar, they have a decent reputation for putting you on a later departure without too much fuss.

Also, your problem (B) isn't that much of a problem; if that train didn't run there are other indirect services to Paris (which DB would put you on) rather than waiting many hours for the next direct one. And they'd endorse your ticket so that Eurostar should shift your booking if necessary. Delays in Germany are sufficiently common that - in my experience - DB are well practised at looking after you and ensuring your onward connections are dealt with. (Thanks to a DB problem a few years back, I had an extra day's break - including a very pleasant hotel B&B, a couple of taxi rides, a visit to an extra country not on my planned itinerary, and an arrival in London about 20 hours later then intended from a direction not planned ... all sorted out with no-one batting an eyelid and at no cost to me.)

My attitude when travelling around Europe by rail, based on my own experience, is that I'm always very relaxed and trusting (despite odd delays); but I realise I might just have been lucky. I accept that Seat 61 always advises a bit more caution and says to allow more leeway, and I know that you can get stuck with lack of co-ordination between different train companies, so I guess it's down to how prone you are to worrying! (Maybe my attitude is based on my having first travelled decades back when all the continent's railways were publicly owned, run as public services, and co-operated rather than competed; in those days, a ticket from A to B meant "the railway" would get you from A to B somehow, come what may.) One point where I do certainly concur with Seat 61 is in allowing plenty of leeway when starting a sleeper journey (as opposed to when arriving from one as in your case); if the connection you want only runs once a day, it's silly not to allow for problems on the way to connect with it - I've only ever done that once, and I did find I was getting a bit stressed for the last hour or so on my incoming connection.)

 

[doc7austin]

(A) Short changeover (33 min) in Stuttgart. Sleeper is due in 08:38; Service to Paris Est leaves 09:11. Long changeover (3h 39m) in Paris

A big NO on that.
I'd recommend to leave plenty time in Stuttgart to connect onwards to France.

The problem with (B) is that the 10:52 is the last direct service Stuttgart-Paris. So if it does not run we are stuck in Stuttgart.

Is the ICE train at 14:52 from Stuttgart no running on your travel day to Paris ?
That would be the recommended train for connecting in Stuttgart.

 

[Sieni]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Lots of food for thought.

@doc7austin 10:52 was a typo. The last one is 14:52. That's the more chilled out change in Stuttgart. But the fact that there's no fallback if it doesn't run is worrying me. But as @AlbertBeale says there are indirect services if that happens. Then we would have to throw ourselves on the mercy of Eurostar if we miss our connection as a result.

We've had some exciting adventures crossing Europe by train in the past. Maybe sometimes a bit more exciting than we'd like! That's why I'm trying to build maximum resilience into our plans this time.

 

[doc7austin]

With the 14:52 option from Stuttgart you would be protected via HOTNAT in Paris. With a cancellation/delay of the ICE/Inoui train into Paris, Eurostar is supposed to rebook you for free onto the next available service.

HOTNAT is, however, worthless, if you miss the ICE/Inoui in Stuttgart.
If you travel on an railpass, the 13:42 Inoui train from Mannheim to Paris could be interesting for you.

Connections between Nightjet and global-priced Eurostar/Inoui trains can be "dangerous". There is no ticket protection in place, moreover, if you miss the next train, you could get stuck as availability (esp. for railpass-holders) can cause major headache during high traffic periods.

 

[Krokodil]

I'd go for the earlier one. If the sleeper is late then just go to the booking office and get them to stamp your ticket to authorise you to take the later train. DB staff are well used to delayed passengers. Eurostar are generally pretty good too, but it can be subject to space.

 

[jeremyjh]

I'd go for the earlier one. If the sleeper is late then just go to the booking office and get them to stamp your ticket to authorise you to take the later train. DB staff are well used to delayed passengers. Eurostar are generally pretty good too, but it can be subject to space.

At this point you'd be relying on the goodwill of Eurostar. The NightJet might well run too late to make the earlier connection, and there is no formal connection protection on Eurostar as a result of this delay.

OP's option 2 is far more resilient. Nearly two hours is a lot of time to make the connection in Paris.

 

[doc7austin]

I'd go for the earlier one. If the sleeper is late then just go to the booking office and get them to stamp your ticket to authorise you to take the later train. DB staff are well used to delayed passengers. Eurostar are generally pretty good too, but it can be subject to space.

No, I cannot concur with this recommendation.

1. A stamp from DB InfraGO may or may not be accepted by the DB FV / SNCF staff on the ICE/Inoui train from Stuttgart to Paris.

2. DB InfraGO may not give you that stamp at all. There is a rumour that a gentlemen agreement exists between DB FV and ÖBB to accept delayed Nightjet passenger on later DB FV trains for free. However, I am not sure if this gentlemen agreement extends to the DB/SNCF high-speed trains to Paris. And DB FV won't issue any free replacement tickets in the DB ReiseZentrum.

3. Again, you might be lucky having reached Paris. But the buck stops with Eurostar. It is highly unlikely that Eurostar is going to issue you a free boarding pass for the next available Eurostar train to London with just a stamp by DB InfraGO from Stuttgart.

 

[rvdborgt]

3. Again, you might be lucky having reached Paris. But the buck stops with Eurostar. It is highly unlikely that Eurostar is going to issue you a free boarding pass for the next available Eurostar train to London with just a stamp by DB InfraGO from Stuttgart.

AFAIK Eurostar (to London) are generally quite helpful in doing just that.

 

[Sieni]

Thanks everyone. I'm leaning towards:

Arr Stuttgart 08:38. Layover of 02:14 Looking at past history on zugfinder.net this doesn't look like too much of a risk.
Dep Stuttgart - Paris 10:52.
Arr Paris 14:13. Layover of 02:59 Leaves plenty of room for delay. We don't want a repeat of our previous epic chase across Paris, getting on the Eurostar with seconds to spare!
Dep Paris 17:12

I was wrong in that there are a few other trains from Stuttgart to Paris, as late as 18:52. So if it all goes horribly wrong we should be able to get home even if we end up - worst case - having to buy new tickets. What was making me really antsy was the prosect of being stuck in Stuttgart, but that was due to my misapprehension that there were no later trains.

We're not travelling until September but I'll be sure to come back and let you all know how it went.

 

[30907]

Thanks everyone. I'm leaning towards:

Arr Stuttgart 08:38. Layover of 02:14 Looking at past history on zugfinder.net this doesn't look like too much of a risk.
Dep Stuttgart - Paris 10:52.
Arr Paris 14:13. Layover of 02:59 Leaves plenty of room for delay. We don't want a repeat of our previous epic chase across Paris, getting on the Eurostar with seconds to spare!
Dep Paris 17:12

The Seat61 option - he has definitely moved towards slack connections, no doubt in response to feedback from his more cautious passengers!

We're not travelling until September but I'll be sure to come back and let you all know how it went.

Please do. One thing to check is the Austrian engineering works, which may not be published that far ahead. A block on the Tauernbahn, for example, will have a massive impact on NJ236!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Again, you might be lucky having reached Paris. But the buck stops with Eurostar. It is highly unlikely that Eurostar is going to issue you a free boarding pass for the next available Eurostar train to London with just a stamp by DB InfraGO from Stuttgart.

AFAIK Eurostar (to London) are generally quite helpful in doing just that.

My experience is the latter; a missed connection in Germany because of DB late running meant an endorsement from them to send me onwards, and then at my next change a further endorsement from a different operator to send me on the next leg, etc; finally Eurostar took a quick look my ticket with its various rubber stamps and notes on it and reissued my (now long out of time) Eurostar ticket. They even asked me which of the forthcoming trains I'd prefer to be on, in case I wanted to have something to eat first.