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Virgin Group explores the return of Virgin Trains as an Open Access operator

LTJ87

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This week's Sunday Times carries an interview with the CEO of Virgin Group Josh Bayliss who says Virgin is looking to return to the UK railways as an Open Access operator:


The finer details are being worked through, but he is looking at launching an “open access” operator, similar to the likes of Lumo and Grand Central, on the east coast mainline, which take full commercial responsibility for running services rather than being tied to state-mandated timetables. No final decision has been made, he stresses.

“The opportunity which open access presents to continue to provide that experience on the rail network is something that is very interesting to us,” Bayliss says. “We would love to be able to serve those customers who so enjoyed Virgin on the UK rail network.”

Services to Europe are also said to be under consideration:

As EU countries are forced by Brussels legislation to break up state rail monopolies, opportunities abound on the Continent, too. This is why Virgin is looking at a potential rival to Eurostar to run train services through the Channel Tunnel. “It’s a huge undertaking to establish a new operator in the industry and in that market. We’re continuing to advance our preparation and delighted with progress so far,” Bayliss says.

If these plans do come to fruition (and there is a long list of things in the past that Virgin has said were under consideration that came to nothing) it's unlikely that Virgin would go it alone and risk much of its own capital.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Interesting. It did plan an Open Access operation between Liverpool and London back in 2020 but withdrew when COVID came about presumably because it created too many uncertainties.
 

Trackman

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If these plans do come to fruition (and there is a long list of things in the past that Virgin has said were under consideration that came to nothing) it's unlikely that Virgin would go it alone and risk much of its own capital.
Last time it was Virgin Group, Stagecoach, SNCF and Alstom.
Interesting. It did plan an Open Access operation between Liverpool and London back in 2020 but withdrew when COVID came about presumably because it created too many uncertainties.
There is a thread about it somewhere, tbh, I'd forgotten all about it because of Covid. Speculation then was they would use Voyagers, I guess even more so now.
 

LTJ87

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There's another story in this week's Sunday Times confirming Virgin Trains has applied to run services from Euston:


Virgin services from Euston will be hourly to Preston via Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham New Street and Liverpool Lime Street under the application to the rail regulator. They will run every two hours to Glasgow.

Josh Bayliss, the Virgin Group chief executive, confirmed this weekend that an application had been made to the Office of Rail and Road.
 

Energy

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There's another story in this week's Sunday Times confirming Virgin Trains has applied to run services from Euston:

Apparently using 10-car trains (I'd guess Voyagers...).

I'm assuming a misprint, via Liverpool Lime Street would require a reversal. P13 and P14 at Manchester Picadilly (the only through platforms) can fit a 10-car Voyager or 80X (just) but I'd be surprised if they can get paths through there.

Assuming they can get paths (that's a big assumption) then 1tp2h Liverpool Lime St via Birmingham & Manchester and 1tp2h Glasgow via Birmingham & Manchester isn't impossible but would struggle to compete with journey times on established flows, like London - Liverpool.
 

Sorcerer

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Quite bold ambitions, given the limited availability of paths on the WCML.

That said, if I were in their position, I would certainly think about running a Liverpool service to fill the void left by what seems to be an increasingly unlikely second Avanti service, though what kind of trains that would require I do not know.

Ideally I'd also have wanted to invest in new trains, but I don't know whether that could be done without needing an overhead line power upgrade north of Crewe.

But in any case, we'd have to see if the ORR approves their application.

Running via Birmingham and Manchester might be good alternatives for local passengers, but for end-to-end intercity travellers, it's simply not competitive.
 
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Rail Quest

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Surely there's no paths through Manchester that could be used by an open access operator? The dreaded Castlefield corridor is so busy, if there's any regular space in it's schedule, I would be shocked.

Come to think of it, given this service would use Ordsall Ln Jnc (either to head towards Liverpool or Preston, depending on how the service(s) are arranged), that's the second open access request to the ORR for that chunk of track in such a short amount of time :lol:
 

fishwomp

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Surely there's no paths through Manchester that could be used by an open access operator? The dreaded Castlefield corridor is so busy, if there's any regular space in it's schedule, I would be shocked.
Perhaps it wants to take the route of 1980s before the then new Windsor Curve took the long distance through-Manchester services to Pic instead of Vic.

Turn right after Stockport at Heaton Norris Jct, straight to Ashton Moss Jct, and in to Vic and then on chat moss line to Liverpool , or usual Bolton route. It could even stop at Denton - I was joking - but actually Denton would make a great M50/M67 parkway!

Sadly the monumental short-sighted mess up that is the contracted Victoria may not fit it either..
 

Toby268

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How would this not be abstractive, Avanti, LNWR and TPE would all be impacted?
And XC from Birmingham to manchester. A part of me wonders if this is some sort of test by virgin, publicity stunt in some way. 1TPH to Preston and every other hour to Glasgow is the boldest open access application we’ve seen in terms of number of services, but it also has to be the most abstractive we’ve seen.

I don’t think the press release has the most accurate info, as I’m not sure how the services can be routed via Liverpool without a reversal. Journey times would be very non competitive if so.
 

Clarence Yard

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Is there a reason why their seems to been a flury of open access west coast proposals recently?

Yes, this Government has been quietly encouraging OA applications, hoping to dent Labour’s plans for GBR and keeping the private sector in the rail operations business. If it also compels Labour to say something negative about OA before the election, the Conservatives can make it a “wedge” issue.

The problem for any OA application on the WCML is that a key part of it has been declared “Congested Infrastructure” so the ORR may side with NR and say there is no more room at present.
 

Rail Quest

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Perhaps it wants to take the route of 1980s before the then new Windsor Curve took the long distance through-Manchester services to Pic instead of Vic.

Turn right after Stockport at Heaton Norris Jct, straight to Ashton Moss Jct, and in to Vic and then on chat moss line to Liverpool , or usual Bolton route. It could even stop at Denton - I was joking - but actually Denton would make a great M50/M67 parkway!

Sadly the monumental short-sighted mess up that is the contracted Victoria may not fit it either..
This would be interesting though, for a single track line, that section is pretty well utilized by freight so perhaps capacity issues there as well
 

Class 800

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How would this not be abstractive, Avanti, LNWR and TPE would all be impacted?
Easy. Strip Avanti of the concession and hand it to Virgin. They ran it for 22 years. Avanti have run it for five and have been afflicted with reduced timetables, strike action and a whole lot more mess.
 

Manutd1999

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hoping to dent Labour’s plans for GBR and keeping the private sector in the rail operations business.
Going a bit off topic but if anything a fully nationalised GBR could be a good thing for OA.

A world where "InterCity" competes with a flurry of OA services could work quite nicely. The ECML is a reasonable example, where the OAs have 1-2 paths between them, providing a mix of extra destinations (Grand Central, Hull) and competition for the core route (Lumo)
 

irish_rail

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If the reason we supposedly need HS2 so much is lack of space on the WCML, where are all these extra paths coming from?......
 

Energy

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If the reason we supposedly need HS2 so much is lack of space on the WCML, where are all these extra paths coming from?......
There aren't enough paths for all these operators and I wouldn't expect all of them to be successful.

I'm not confident Grand Union will end up running. We'll have to wait to see Virgin's full application (I suspect it got submitted right before the weekend so ORR won't have processed it yet) to find out more details and what paths they have identified, particularly around Manchester.
Probably freed up when hs2 opens
They'd be freed up if HS2 was built to Crewe, as it is currently only being built to Handsacre the only freed paths are a couple of Birmingham - London via Coventry.
 

Snow1964

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BBC story of Virgin bid

Virgin Group confirmed to the BBC that it had applied to the Office of Rail and Road, the regulator, for an Open Access licence.

Under this type of licence, a firm does not receive any state subsidies and takes on the risk of running a rail service itself. In contrast, a franchised operator, such as Avanti, holds a contact with the government to run the route.

A spokesperson for Virgin Group said: "While this application is just the first step towards exploring what might be possible, we think Open Access is the way forward.

"Open Access increases consumer choice and competition both of which Virgin has always supported."

Since taking over the franchise, Avanti has faced fierce criticism over delays and cancellations.
Virgin Group said that it has applied to run services between London Euston to Preston and Rochdale via Manchester and Bolton in the north west as well as to Birmingham, Liverpool and Glasgow.

The previous train company was a joint venture between Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Group and Stagecoach, the Scottish bus and rail company.

But a spokesperson for Virgin said that it had had made the application independently. If it was successful, it would manage the trains itself.

When Virgin Trains lost the contract, it had provided almost 500 million journeys. Sir Richard said at the time that he was "devastated".

 

The Prisoner

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Maybe someone is noting the growth in train usage in the likes of Italy where Italo's competition with Trenitalia has led to additional users. Same also applies with Lumo and the ECML?

Labour have green lighted OA continuing.

Can only be a good thing if we have decent operators....
 

Clarence Yard

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Easy. Strip Avanti of the concession and hand it to Virgin. They ran it for 22 years. Avanti have run it for five and have been afflicted with reduced timetables, strike action and a whole lot more mess.

Not going to happen because that is not how Government procurement works and in any event, in the now very likely event of Labour winning the next GE, it will move from partial Government control to full public ownership in or shortly after October 2026.

Avanti have just been running it on behalf of the DfT in the last 4 years. The DfT have been calling the shots on this TOC during that time, not really the Avanti management.
 

Chester1

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If the reason we supposedly need HS2 so much is lack of space on the WCML, where are all these extra paths coming from?......

There are 1tph of empty off peak fast paths in the WCML timetable. There appears to be a scramble for all of them. I doubt less than 4tpd will be viable so only 2 or 3 of the 4 operators can actually launch services. The government helped the Wrexham and Shropshire proposal by allowing Avanti to withdraw its unprofitable Shrewsbury service.
 

Energy

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BBC story of Virgin bid




So looks like 1tp2h will run London - Preston*/Rochdale via Manchester and another 1tp2h will run London - Preston*/Liverpool via West Midlands. With splitting on both services at some point.

This sounds like its going to have a high staff training and route learning requirement for quite a small operator...

*one of these services would be extended to Glasgow.

How does the ORR handle multiple operators applying for the same path?
The government helped the Wrexham and Shropshire proposal by allowing Avanti to withdraw its unprofitable Shrewsbury service.
The government would be quite happy for someone else to take on its losses, or make it profitable if 5th (or 6th?) time is the charm.
 

JaJaWa

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There's another story in this week's Sunday Times confirming Virgin Trains has applied to run services from Euston:

Virgin Trains to take on Avanti as Branson returns to west coast line
The Richard Branson-led rail company has applied for a licence to be an open-access operator on the London-to-Scotland line, in competition with the main operator
Oliver Gill
Saturday May 18 2024, 6.00pm, The Sunday Times
Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Group is to return to Britain’s railways by launching services on the west coast mainline — the route that the billionaire was booted off by ministers five years ago.
The reborn Virgin Trains, which will compete head-to-head with the under-fire operator Avanti, has applied to run ten-carriage trains between London Euston and Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow.
The company has applied for a licence to be a new “open access” operator under rules allowing rivals to run trains on lines alongside the main operator.

Virgin services from Euston will be hourly to Preston via Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham New Street and Liverpool Lime Street under the application to the rail regulator. They will run every two hours to Glasgow.
Branson plans to undercut Avanti fares and is looking at offering automatic delay repay — meaning customers will be reimbursed without having to take action if their train is delayed or cancelled. It is also expected to bring back some of the more quirky elements to train travel such as its “talking toilets.”
The new services are not expected to begin until after the general election, but will be unaffected by Labour plans to nationalise prime rail operatorssuch as Avanti, Southern and Thameslink into a single British Rail entity. Open access operators will continue to be allowed to run alongside the main service.
Branson was seen as the poster child of rail privatisation begun under the Conservatives in the mid-1990s and accelerated under Labour in the 2000s. He overturned a decision to eject Virgin Trains from the west coast mainline in 2012 after a High Court challenge.
However, Virgin Trains was then disqualified from re-tendering for the same line in 2019 because its bid did not meet pension rules, according to the Department for Transport.
It was replaced in 2019 by Avanti, which has been rocked by widespread cancellations and delays as bosses grapple with driver shortages and poor industrial relations. Andy Burnham, mayor of Greater Manchester, and his counterparts across the north have repeatedly demanded that Avanti be stripped of the contract to operate intercity services up and down the west coast.
Passengers have also been angered by spiralling fares. A standard-class anytime return ticket leaving at 6am on Tuesday and returning at midday on Thursday costs £369, for example.
Services have, however, improved after Avanti offered drivers a £600 flat fee for working on rest days. Avanti’s co-owner, FirstGroup, took the unusual step of applying to run its own rival open-access service to Rochdale last week.
Josh Bayliss, the Virgin Group chief executive, confirmed this weekend that an application had been made to the Office of Rail and Road.
He said: “We think open access is the way forward. Open access increases consumer choice and competition, both of which Virgin has always supported.
“In the 20 years Virgin Trains operated on the west coast, it reduced journey times considerably, tripled services on key routes and provided an exceptional customer experience while increasing passenger numbers to 42 million a year.
“We’re confident customers would welcome Virgin Trains back, providing them with much-needed choice and competition.”
Talking toilets mentioned as returning!
 

Chester1

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The government would be quite happy for someone else to take on its losses, or make it profitable if 5th (or 6th?) time is the charm.

I think that is spot on. The government sees it as saving the taxpayer money and if they prove the doubters wrong then good for them.

The Virgin proposal looks too far the other way i.e. profitable but too abstractive.
 

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