Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[pemma]

Regarding 155s it's worth noting they have a very high seating density considering they have 2+2 seating. I think it's around 8 more seats per carriage than a 156 or around 12 more seats per carriage than a standard class only 158.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When the ValleyLines electrification was given the go-ahead, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and the Vale Of Glamorgan were all very much part of the plan

The electrification was not given the go-ahead.
There was a funding deal between UK/WG against the cost of a notional combined electrification/metro project still in development.
That project has got nowhere in the interim, in fact it has gone backwards from an electrification point of view (routes, cost, timescale, ownership).
There is no start date.
Prospects for Cardiff-Swansea are possibly a bit better, as NR will have a design (but no money).

 

[Gareth Marston]

The electrification was not given the go-ahead.
There was a funding deal between UK/WG against the cost of a notional combined electrification/metro project still in development.
That project has got nowhere in the interim, in fact it has gone backwards from an electrification point of view (routes, cost, timescale, ownership).
There is no start date.
Prospects for Cardiff-Swansea are possibly a bit better, as NR will have a design (but no money).

Massive over promising from Politicians from both main party's who didn't realize that Network Rail's ability to conduct electrification work at a sensible cost was non existent.

A brief glance at the almost signed off BR/Dot Joint Electrification plan of the early 1980's would have told them its was a rolling programme that would take between 20 and 30 years years to complete depending at what pace it went and the latter add on's or not. Instead it was all jam tomorrow......

 

[Philip]

Currently on the 11:52 Chester-Manchester which is a 3-coach 175...and very full. Up until Warrington it was near enough packed out. Is this normal for this train on a Friday?

 

[pemma]

Currently on the 11:52 Chester-Manchester which is a 3-coach 175...and very full. Up until Warrington it was near enough packed out. Is this normal for this train on a Friday?

It's half term this week. Public transport is generally busier at off-peak times during school holidays (and quieter in the morning peak.)

However, there are very busy off-peak services on both Chester-Manchester lines even when it's school term time which justifies the requirement for additional services which will be introduced next May.

 

[Philip]

Could a UK railway gauge version of the Hyundai Rotum 22000 class be an option for this franchise? Having travelled long distances on both this and the 175 in consecutive days, I would say the 22000 is a better quality DMU. They would suit the long distance South Wales services down to the ground, if ordered in 4-car formation.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Could a UK railway gauge version of the Hyundai Rotum 22000 class be an option for this franchise? Having travelled long distances on both this and the 175 in consecutive days, I would say the 22000 is a better quality DMU. They would suit the long distance South Wales services down to the ground, if ordered in 4-car formation.

I see the Marches line as the benchmark for the rest of the franchise (outside of Cardiff Metro area) if we get new longer length stock to run an hourly IC/ Regional Express type Manchester to Swansea service then it bodes well for cascades/ elsewhere.

 

[craigybagel]

I see the Marches line as the benchmark for the rest of the franchise (outside of Cardiff Metro area) if we get new longer length stock to run an hourly IC/ Regional Express type Manchester to Swansea service then it bodes well for cascades/ elsewhere.

I'd like to agree with you - but I fear that the Manchester's will be left as is with all investment going into the Holyhead Cardiff instead......

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I see the Marches line as the benchmark for the rest of the franchise (outside of Cardiff Metro area) if we get new longer length stock to run an hourly IC/ Regional Express type Manchester to Swansea service then it bodes well for cascades/ elsewhere.

Which I believe is one of the more commercial routes - though Cambrian - Salop - Brum must be well up there.

 

[PHILIPE]

Which I believe is one of the more commercial routes - though Cambrian - Salop - Brum must be well up there.

And not Cardiff through to Holyhead which the Welsh Government seem to be obsessed with

 

[ChiefPlanner]

And not Cardiff through to Holyhead which the Welsh Government seem to be obsessed with

Quite .....never let economics get in the way of running a proper railway......

 

[Gareth Marston]

Playing on the minds of the franchise bidders will be the inevitable drop in revenue due on the Chester to Manchester route where the new franchise will have the Northern Connect Chester to Bradford service to split with and the extra Shrewsbury to Birmingham Off Peak trains in the new West Midlands franchise will dilute the income stream from the West Midlands.

An hourly Caordiff to Holyhead service will not generate much new revenue and may even depress it as intermediate stations find their trains don't go directly to where they want to go.

Investing in the Manchester to Cardiff route is the obvious icing on the cake in the franchise area its profitable and has the best potential for growth.

I suspect the Welsh Government will choke on the cost of prioritising the hourly Holyhead fantasy. Please sir can we have some more subsidy?

 

[Parallel]

Interestingly, I was on a 143 that had been refreshed internally today (don't ask me which) - It had new seat covers and the tops of the seats had been painted with a greeny-blue. It's the first 143 I've seen refreshed, the rest being 142s.

 

[gareth950]

Interestingly, I was on a 143 that had been refreshed internally today (don't ask me which) - It had new seat covers and the tops of the seats had been painted with a greeny-blue. It's the first 143 I've seen refreshed, the rest being 142s.

Yes, the 143s are being 'refreshed' as well, with WiFi soon to be fitted to ATW's Pacers also.
The priority should be to finish refreshing the remaining 150/2s that need to be done IMO.

 

[6Gman]

Currently on the 11:52 Chester-Manchester which is a 3-coach 175...and very full. Up until Warrington it was near enough packed out. Is this normal for this train on a Friday?

What do you mean by "packed out"?

 

[Philip]

What do you mean by "packed out"?

I meant it was packed to the rafters! Not quite sardines, but the vestibules were just about full... In contrast I was on the 20:34 Chester to Holyhead a couple of nights previously and you could literally count the number of passengers on the whole train with one hand, what's more it was like that all the way to Holyhead. This was also a 3-car 175, I think as booked, but I'm guessing it's for the purpose of stock movement.

 

[gareth950]

The other option is cascading Northern and GWR Pacers to Wales as they're released end of 2018/early 2019 to allow 150/2s to go away for work in bulk throughout 2019, but that option is not very appealing.

I can categorically disagree with these comments. I'm in Northern land this week, and was subjected to the full horrors of two Northern 142 journeys today, with one journey being full and standing at peak time.
These 142s seemed unchanged from the 1980s, complete with 3+2 bus seats. I haven't been on a bus seated Pacer for over 15 years. I like to bash ATW Pacers on here, but at least ATW have made an effort to make their Pacers tolerable but fitting 2+2 chapman seats and refreshing internally.
I don't know what the solution to the impending Welsh 2020 DMU crisis is, I'm not sure many people do, but taking on Northern's 142s, even as a 'stop-gap' for a year whilst 150/2s are away for mods, is totally unacceptable in the state they're in.

I'm sure the state of Northern's Pacers has been done to death on these forums and of course discussing it in this thread would be going way off topic anyway, but I was genuienly shocked at the dire state of the 142s I was on today. Not even Wales deserves that forced on it!

Here's an example of the two 142s I had today

 

[Parallel]

Northern definitely operate some of the most tired looking pacers in the fleet. That said, Northern's 144s are fairly smart compared to the 142s, but the 142s that have the 2+2 style 'car seats' on Northern would be OK for a stop gap. ATW wouldn't need to take on ALL 142s though, to allow the 150s to all be refurbished, factoring in GWR's 143s too.

 

[pemma]

Is the image above an old photo? I thought Northern had refreshed all the ex-Merseytravel 142s.

If the GWR 143s are available and W&B needs more Pacers then they surely must be the first option as they are the same type and same standard as ones already in the GWR fleet. As already mentioned the 144s are the best Northern Pacers and there's 23 of them - 10 with 3 cars, so the 143s and 144s combined would be enough to directly/indirectly replace the 142s and 153s in the W&B fleet as well as adding additional carriages to the fleet.

My guess is the 'ePacer' will end up at W&B even if they withdraw all the others as it would be an ideal unit for the Cardiff Bay shuttle and using that on the Cardiff Bay shuttle would mean it's not using a Sprinter which could be used to strengthen services elsewhere.

 

[gareth950]

Is the image above an old photo? I thought Northern had refreshed all the ex-Merseytravel 142s.

It is an old photo, but the 142s I endured yesterday on the Man Picc - Knutsford journeys I made were exactly the same as in that photo, apart from the seat coverings being Northern navy rather than the colour in that picture.

 

[philthetube]

I can categorically disagree with these comments. I'm in Northern land this week, and was subjected to the full horrors of two Northern 142 journeys today, with one journey being full and standing at peak time.
These 142s seemed unchanged from the 1980s, complete with 3+2 bus seats. I haven't been on a bus seated Pacer for over 15 years.

You got lucky, you missed out on the bus seats.

 

[pemma]

It is an old photo, but the 142s I endured yesterday on the Man Picc - Knutsford journeys I made were exactly the same as in that photo, apart from the seat coverings being Northern navy rather than the colour in that picture.

Interesting you mention Knutsford and using 2+2 seating would be more tolerable. Passenger counts have shown even when passengers are squashed like sardines the ex-ATN ones hold around 30 fewer passengers than the other types Northern have. I'm not sure the counter peak flow commuters on the Mid-Cheshire line will find arriving an hour late, due to the train being too full to board, more tolerable.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As crunch time approaches various bodies have resorted to issuing reports to the press after the lackluster performance of Transport for Wales...

From the Assembly Economy Committee

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40443476

Effective monitoring of performance
Greener, cleaner service
Integrated network with buses and other train operators
New routes and service frequencies responding to passenger needs
Affordable fares with clear, simple ticketing options
New trains with adequate space and on-board services
Better information and communication on connections and delays
Modern stations
Ensure all passengers pay their fares
Reduced disruption

and from Transport Focus

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/r...e-wales-borders-rail-service-passengers-want/

Overview
Passengers would like to see the operator of the new franchise
to have a very local focus and ‘non-corporate’ feel. Current
passengers often speak highly of local staff members. They
recognise the big gaps in the network between North, Mid
and South Wales, and would like to see more of a coherent
organisation behind the provision of transport services in Wales.
Overall, passengers want the basics fixed before focusing on
advanced improvements and a significantly enhanced service.
Passengers see these as the overarching themes, which are
manifested in a number of day-to-day concerns.
The reasons passengers choose to use Arriva Trains Wales
services are similar to those for other operators. Driving (and
parking) is seen as expensive, time consuming and more
stressful than taking the train, although for group travel it can be
cheaper. Buses are useful for short journeys, but where the train
is an option it is seen as preferable due to speed, predictability
and comfort. Coaches for longer journeys are perceived to be
cheaper, but also slower, more unpredictable and seldom an

Decision day looms for Welsh Government which at the speed they move is a nano second away......

 

[Gareth Marston]

Better quality carriages must be a "priority" for the next Wales and Border rail franchise, the economy secretary has said. Ken Skates said bidders for the franchise had been told improvements would need to be seen quickly.

from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wal...ages-a-priority-for-next-wales-rail-franchise


The competitive tender spiel were not specifying anything seems to have been ditched.....

 

[daikilo]

from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wal...ages-a-priority-for-next-wales-rail-franchise

The competitive tender spiel were not specifying anything seems to have been ditched.....

Should I understand that (belatedly) an assembly economic committee has spent money doing a survey that presumably TfW has already done? Also, whilst it is true that this is the first franchise that TfW will let, I cannot believe that they are really starting from square one; if they are, then there is reason to expect a delay and/or a mess.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Should I understand that (belatedly) an assembly economic committee has spent money doing a survey that presumably TfW has already done? Also, whilst it is true that this is the first franchise that TfW will let, I cannot believe that they are really starting from square one; if they are, then there is reason to expect a delay and/or a mess.

Sounds like their setting the scene to deflect future criticism. Sorry we forgot to specify trains to Treherbert but it is out first time and it was jolly hard you know"

 

[daikilo]

Sounds like their setting the scene to deflect future criticism. Sorry we forgot to specify trains to Treherbert but it is out first time and it was jolly hard you know"

Which I think has been the fear of many of us i.e. they don't know how to do it (or rather that e.g. trams in the valleys is not a magic solution to the entire network) but nor do they know how to ask for or admit they need help. I also suspect that without European or Westminster help, the numbers will never be affordable.

 

[gareth950]

Ken Skates on TV today saying they have told bidders that WG 'expects to see significant improvements in rolling stock very early on in the next franchise' here and also mentioned on BBC Wales in the Assembly report that Wales needs a 'green' railway.

How's that going to happen then Mr. Skates when:

• It takes 3 - 4 years to order, build and design new trains (let alone any fancy bespoke trams or tram-trains for the valleys)
  
• It will take at least 5 years to electrify/convert the valley lines, unless the network is completely shut down for a year or two, resulting in gridlock on Cardiff's roads in the meantime.
  
• There are no DMU's going spare in the UK anywhere
  
• The only extra DMU options are D-trains or converted 319s/455s, and these are not any younger than ATWs current stock and won't offer any improvements over the refreshed ATW 150/2 interiors that are demanded. Again, orders need to be placed for these trains and this can't be done until the franchise is awarded.
  
• The Welsh Govt's failiure to take any action, either by lobbying the DfT or providing funding directly to upgrade the current ATW fleet ready for 2020 means Wales will be the only part of the UK in January 2020 without disability compliant trains.
  
• Only committing to electrifying the valley lines north of Queen St in the 'Metro' area isn't exactly providing Wales with a 'green' railway is it?

I don't know whether to feel :cry: or :-x or even on WG's behalf.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There will of course be many other "priorities".
Nothing will happen until a franchise contract is signed, unless WG opens its wallet earlier, so at least 6 months away.

 

[gareth950]

There will of course be many other "priorities".
Nothing will happen until a franchise contract is signed, unless WG opens its wallet earlier, so at least 6 months away.

'Priorities' like what? There will be no immediate solutions available to overcrowding and ageing trains next October, apart from the new franchise scraping together any spare 143/144/153s that no-one wants.