• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Carwyn is setting the scene trying to dampen expectation and shift the blame.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-44109482
Rail passengers on local services in Wales have been warned by the first minister that substantial improvements could be three or four years away.

A new operator to run the Wales and Borders franchise for the next 15 years is due to be announced this month.

Carwyn Jones said the standards of outgoing operator Arriva Trains Wales had not been good enough.

He said it was "going to take some time" for new carriages and electric services to come through.

The Wales and Border franchise and its terms were of course set by a Labour Government in Westminster and welcomed by their colleagues in Cardiff Bay I cant remember Carwyn bouncing up and down objecting......

Welsh Government have also chosen to let the franchise run its course knowing it has been beneath the standard expected.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
3,744
It is reasonable to expect people to make some effort to avoid being embarrassed by calls of nature. Stations like Richmond and Waterloo have public lavatories which can be used before people begin their journey. If passengers are taken by surprise mid-journey, in some cases it is possible to avoid a crisis by getting off the train. For example, Finsbury Park has platform lavatories for Moorgate to Letchworth passengers. Willesden Junction and Gospel Oak have platform lavatories for the Richmond to Stratford journey.

Passengers travelling some distance through stations with no facilities need on-train provision.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to know which stations have toilets and which don't, though. I've no confidence in any operator who claims that on-station facilities are a suitable alternative to on-board ones. When there was a hoo-hah over Connex South Eastern ordering trains with no toilets (class 376) they said they'd open and improve station toilets, which to noone's surprise never happened.

The busiest station South Eastern serve, London Bridge, has not long re-opened after years of being rebuilt, with proud boasts that it has a concourse bigger than Wembley's pitch. Yup, a concourse with no toilets - there are no toilets at all other than very well hidden RADAR-key only disabled toilets on the platform side of the barrier lines, despite it being an enormous interchange station with a large number of trains without toilets.

If they can't be bothered doing it properly there, there's no way you're ever going to see a station toilet at Valleys lines stations.
 

Del1977

Member
Joined
16 Jan 2018
Messages
224
Location
Canada Water
I'm surprised this toilet controversy has come back again, despite posters pointing out the various other services around the country without toilets. Apparently the 45 minutes to an hour is far too long for people to be able to wait, but let's consider the alternative modes of transport between Merthyr Tydfil and Cardiff:

Drive car (no toilet), take bus (no toilet), a future tram/train (no toilet).

The lack of toilets isn't impacting on the demand for people to make this journey by car or bus, so perhaps this is why the provision of toilets on a 45-50 minute journey isn't deemed as being absolutely necessary?
 

squizzler

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2017
Messages
1,906
Location
Jersey, Channel Islands
It's interesting that the idea only seems to have surfaced after the electrification is well in its way to completion. I wonder whether Cardiff Bay would have been willing to contribute to electrifying the English part of the route which, as you say, benefits South Wales at least as much as the West of England and more than London.

I suppose in this it is analogous to the Scottish desire for HS2 extension into the lowlands emerging as the HS2 as far as Northern England becomes a done deal.

I may have said that peripheral regions have more to gain than core regions when establishing better linkages between periphery and core. There is unfortunately a flip side, which is that the peripheral regions don't generally have the money to make that happen. Wealthy core regions will always suck money from the periphery, it is only just that wealth should be returned from the core to the periphery through strategic planning. Europe recognises that (hence the structural funds that Wales has benefitted from), it can sometimes seem only the UK has a problem with this.

Arguably, Wales, Scotland should be able to specify the services that connect their economies to core economies (maybe not just London, But continental destinations!), even if wealth redistribution requires that infrastructure to do this would inevitably mostly be paid for by the central economy.

Whereas you can argue its damaging economically to North Wales to have poorer links to North West England because of Cardiff obsession from he Welsh Government the reverse true of connecting Cardiff to London which is done by the Westminster Government!

Whilst I feel that peripheral regions (Scotland, Wales, Southwest) should have responsibility to specify their own services into larger economies, this requires that the region be geographically coherent. As far as rail in concerned, Wales network forms three different watersheds: the South Wales mainline (with its hub at Cardiff), the Cambrian mainline (with its hub at Shrewsbury) and the North Wales coast (with its hub at Chester). Much of the problems with the Wales franchise result from trying to amalgamate these three different networks. To make things worse, two of these three networks have their hubs outside Wales! Compared to the current situation, giving Cardiff control of the intercity route to London might seem sensible. Shame Cardiff cannot in turn release its grip on the lines radiating from Shrewsbury and Chester, because as you said, the WG is in denial about the fact that traffic through these hubs mainly wants to go from east to west and vice-versa, not along the Marches to and From Cardiff, and as such does not provide the service that people in mid and North Wales actually want!
 

gareth950

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2013
Messages
1,009
I have a strong feeling that if the WG do announce the winner next week it will be heavy on nauseous spin and light on real world detail. They will continue to play secret squirrel about the all important detail it will all be about image and proclaiming greatness so getting that detail out and cutting through the BS will be the next phase.

Shall we play 'buzz word bingo' over the next two weeks?
Let's count how many times we hear Skates and Jones use the words "world class", "transformative" and "step change" in announcements or press releases about the winning bidder, without actually giving any detail.
Also get ready for them to say "we'd love to do X and Y but we can't because Network Rail is crap and Westminster won't let us" (insert crying baby tantrum emoji here)
 

Del1977

Member
Joined
16 Jan 2018
Messages
224
Location
Canada Water
Shall we play 'buzz word bingo' over the next two weeks?
Let's count how many times we hear Skates and Jones use the words "world class", "transformative" and "step change" in announcements or press releases about the winning bidder, without actually giving any detail.
Also get ready for them to say "we'd love to do X and Y but we can't because Network Rail is crap and Westminster won't let us"

I can't wait to see the announcement, personally. Who knows, they may all surprise us!
 

gareth950

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2013
Messages
1,009
I can't wait to see the announcement, personally. Who knows, they may all surprise us!
I'd love to know what surprises you're expecting.
That they've seen sense and binned the fundamentally flawed ''Core Valley lines" concept would be a nice one.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to know which stations have toilets and which don't, though.
TOC's could do more to publicise this though, in the way that TfL publishes a version of the tube map showing which stations have toilet facilities - it also includes DLR, LO and TfL Rail stations and tram stops. The map shows what facilities are available and whether they are inside or outside the barrier.

Fairly simple for TOCs to do the same so that people who frequently need to access toilets can get the information easily. It just requires the will to do it.
 

Del1977

Member
Joined
16 Jan 2018
Messages
224
Location
Canada Water
I'd love to know what surprises you're expecting.
That they've seen sense and binned the fundamentally flawed ''Core Valley lines" concept would be a nice one.

Well I'd be pleasantly surprised to see the following (thinking just of South Wales):

- Tram/trains north of Cardiff Central
- A sensible solution for dealing with the VoG until the Tram/train solution is extended there.
- 4tph to Ebbw Vale
- 2tph to Maesteg
- An additional stopper as far as Hereford, or failing that Abergavenny.
- (More) / Trains between Swansea & Bristol.
 

drdan888

New Member
Joined
12 Jun 2015
Messages
2
I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to know which stations have toilets and which don't, though. I've no confidence in any operator who claims that on-station facilities are a suitable alternative to on-board ones. When there was a hoo-hah over Connex South Eastern ordering trains with no toilets (class 376) they said they'd open and improve station toilets, which to noone's surprise never happened.

The busiest station South Eastern serve, London Bridge, has not long re-opened after years of being rebuilt, with proud boasts that it has a concourse bigger than Wembley's pitch. Yup, a concourse with no toilets - there are no toilets at all other than very well hidden RADAR-key only disabled toilets on the platform side of the barrier lines, despite it being an enormous interchange station with a large number of trains without toilets.

If they can't be bothered doing it properly there, there's no way you're ever going to see a station toilet at Valleys lines stations.

Simply untrue - there are free to use toilets at London Bridge
 

gareth950

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2013
Messages
1,009
Well I'd be pleasantly surprised to see the following (thinking just of South Wales):

- Tram/trains north of Cardiff Central
- A sensible solution for dealing with the VoG until the Tram/train solution is extended there.
- 4tph to Ebbw Vale
- 2tph to Maesteg
- An additional stopper as far as Hereford, or failing that Abergavenny.
- (More) / Trains between Swansea & Bristol.
Yep, a sensible, world class, transformative solution for Barry / Penarth / VoG / City line that disregards the frequency increases that CASR enabled on those lines, due to the Core Valley lines being removed from NR and the wider network, is exactly what I'm looking forward to seeing.
When the Vale starts complaining about them being left behind by the Metro, the response will be it's all Grayling's fault.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
Just heard on BBC Wales News that Carwyn James at Bridgend for the opening of the new ticket hall that he was questioned about overcrowding and replied that it could take 3/4 years before any improvement can be seen.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
I'd love to know what surprises you're expecting.
That they've seen sense and binned the fundamentally flawed ''Core Valley lines" concept would be a nice one.
Due to an outbreak of common sense it would be a surprise however because theres no agreement for transfer perhaps wouldn't be.

A surprise would be anything bar Class 158's on the Cambrian.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
Well I'd be pleasantly surprised to see the following (thinking just of South Wales):

- Tram/trains north of Cardiff Central
- A sensible solution for dealing with the VoG until the Tram/train solution is extended there.
- 4tph to Ebbw Vale
- 2tph to Maesteg
- An additional stopper as far as Hereford, or failing that Abergavenny.
- (More) / Trains between Swansea & Bristol.

The last is expressly forbidden ( DFT has declared w&b franchise is not allowed).
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,793
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The last is expressly forbidden ( DFT has declared w&b franchise is not allowed).

Until 2023 or some magic date when resignalling around Bristol allows more paths.
Actually, reletting GWR (if they do that rather than give First another direct award) might throw up some options for the Bristol services.
There's nothing which says the GW franchise has to operate both Bristol services for ever.
Sadly, it will need bi-modes for Swansea-Bristol.
 

gareth950

Member
Joined
3 Nov 2013
Messages
1,009
Due to an outbreak of common sense it would be a surprise however because theres no agreement for transfer perhaps wouldn't be.

A surprise would be anything bar Class 158's on the Cambrian.
Are we absolutely sure that there's been no agreement on the transfer, or is this another thing that is being guarded with MI5 levels of secrecy?

Anyone who has seen Nick Servini's report on Wales Today on Carwyn Jones' comments today, did you notice how CJ got on to a GWR 800 at Bridgend to do his interview and not an ATW 143? The irony.
 
Last edited:

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
3,947
I’m half expecting the announcement this month to be “Arriva Trains Wales given 3 year franchise extension” :lol:
 

Rhydgaled

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
4,570
CAF have already altered the 195 to add unit end gangways for WMR, they could have end doors too. They would probably be a different class number but basically the same.
I think the class 397 'Nova 2' trains for TPE are from the same 'Civity' family as the 195s, so CAF have all the necessary 'components' (doors at vehicle ends, unit end gangways and diesel engines) for a suitable train; they just need to put all those elements together.

I don't think W&B need 5 coach long distance sets, most extra capacity will be provided by extra services such as hourly Holyhead-Cardiff and services on the Halton Curve to Liverpool.
Neither of those will do anything to increase capacity between Cardiff and Swansea, between Shrewsbury and Manchester or between Chester and Manchester, all of which see ATW's class 175s rather heavily loaded at times (I think, I don't have personal experience of the latter). In terms of loadings, from my own observations (mostly between Cardiff and Swansea) most Swansea-Manchester trains ought to be 4-car with a few 5-car diagrams and possibly a handful (or less) of 3-car diagrams. That, or use something with unit-end gangways and split so that different parts of the route have different train lengths.

If the new operator was to go for LHCS though, I wouldn't be surprised if Eversholt are keen to ensure their mark 4 fleet is leased out and will offer a cheaper rate than new mark 5s.

2 coach 175s are best being relegated to South West Wales and the HoW line. I would be surprised if sufficient plugs and USB ports could be installed to meet modern demands and the lack of end gangways to enable easy multiple working is a huge disadvantage.
I agree that the 175/0 fleet (the 2-car units) should be taken off mainline duties, unless permanently coupled to form 4-car sets. Assuming they remain as 2-car units, I think they should be used on:
  • Conwy Valley Line (2 diagrams for a service every 2hrs); I think Chester is the nearest maintainance depot (unless Holyhead has one) to the Conwy Valley
  • Cardiff - Carmarthen/Milford Haven/Fishguard express services via the Swansea District Line (2-car on some diagrams 3-car on others)
  • Heart Of Wales line (possibly shared with class 156s, with 175s on limited-stop services and 156s on stoppers)
Rail improvements on Wales network to 'take some time' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-44109482
No surprise there; new build rolling stock never comes quickly and infrustructure works take even longer. Really this should have been forseen 15 years ago rather than letting a no-growth franchise which ends so soon before the TSI-PRM deadline.

Let's count how many times we hear Skates and Jones use the words "world class", "transformative" and "step change" in announcements or press releases about the winning bidder, without actually giving any detail.
That would also be no surprise; it is standard procedure on DfT-let franchises to announce the winning bidder but near-zero detail on their plans until a 'standstill period' has passed. That said:
is this another thing that is being guarded with MI5 levels of secrecy?
The only way we will get details on the day of the announcement is if the bidders have already been notified of which has won but are sworn to secrecy during the 'standstill period' with a public announcement only made at the end of that period.

A surprise would be anything bar Class 158's on the Cambrian.
If brand-new a new long-distance DMU fleet happens, I wouldn't be all that surprised if Machynlleth was to be the home of the new units. Fitting ETCS is not likely to be as much of a hassle on a brand new train that is designed for it compared to retro-fitting an ex-BR fleet. A new fleet with some 3-car units as well as 2-car ones would be useful for the Cambrian (2-cars isn't always enough west of Machynlleth, but 4-cars will mostly be overkill). That way, the Machynlleth fleet could be slightly bigger than the existing class 158 ETCS fleet allowing the Holyhead-Wrexham-Birmingham through services to continue while providing the necessary extra units to provide a full hourly Aberystwyth-Birmingham service. The 158s could then be paired up to form 4-car trains out of Manchester, perhaps splitting to serve both Holyhead and Llandudno on the north Wales route, or at Crewe or Shrewsbury late in the evening with only one unit going through to Cardiff in the dead of night.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,371
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Not untrue at all folks, as I said there are no toilets within the barriered area at London Bridge other than remarkably camouflaged and unsignposted RADAR key ones at the country ends of the through platforms.

Oh, sorry, I misread. If there aren't any toilets inside the barriered area then, er, go outside the barriered area! :)
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
Not untrue at all folks, as I said there are no toilets within the barriered area at London Bridge other than remarkably camouflaged and unsignposted RADAR key ones at the country ends of the through platforms.
That's not really unusual is it? I can think of other large stations which don't have toilets in the barriered areas; King's Cross, Manchester Victoria?
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
If brand-new a new long-distance DMU fleet happens, I wouldn't be all that surprised if Machynlleth was to be the home of the new units. Fitting ETCS is not likely to be as much of a hassle on a brand new train that is designed for it compared to retro-fitting an ex-BR fleet. A new fleet with some 3-car units as well as 2-car ones would be useful for the Cambrian (2-cars isn't always enough west of Machynlleth, but 4-cars will mostly be overkill). That way, the Machynlleth fleet could be slightly bigger than the existing class 158 ETCS fleet allowing the Holyhead-Wrexham-Birmingham through services to continue while providing the necessary extra units to provide a full hourly Aberystwyth-Birmingham service. The 158s could then be paired up to form 4-car trains out of Manchester, perhaps splitting to serve both Holyhead and Llandudno on the north Wales route, or at Crewe or Shrewsbury late in the evening with only one unit going through to Cardiff in the dead of night.

I would say any new long distance stock would be expected to be put on the Cardiff to Holyhead trains by TfW/WG and any sensible operator would want it on its actual premier route which is Manchester to Swansea.

Ive said all along lets get the entire 24 fleet of Class 158's concentrated on diagrams that go through Machynlleth. We still have to "fill the gaps" on the Cambrian mainline timetable to make it hourly all day and there's need for more stock to strengthen services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham International. The 0832 departure from Shrewsbury and the 1609 & 1709 from International need to be six car formations and all too often ATW turn up in the West Midlands with just a 2 car unit because of shortages in the franchise.
 

sw1ller

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2013
Messages
1,567
the buses near me stick to one route, they have that route printed on the side so I know they (mainly) only do the one route.

Why is it so hard for trains to do the same? I know it’s not practical for all routes but something could be done.

Look at the issues with 175s not so long back with the broken railhead. All 175s and a lot of 158s had to be taken out of service. If trains had their own routes then this wouldn’t have caused such an issue.

Just a thought, please don’t shout if I’ve missed something blindingly obvious. Haha
 

berneyarms

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
2,814
Location
Dublin
They don’t have any spare rolling stock within each class.

Hence they need to swap around if sets go out of service. Also several Class 158 sets are required in South Wales each day as there aren’t enough sets to go around.
 

PHILIPE

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Nov 2011
Messages
13,472
Location
Caerphilly
I would say any new long distance stock would be expected to be put on the Cardiff to Holyhead trains by TfW/WG and any sensible operator would want it on its actual premier route which is Manchester to Swansea.

Ive said all along lets get the entire 24 fleet of Class 158's concentrated on diagrams that go through Machynlleth. We still have to "fill the gaps" on the Cambrian mainline timetable to make it hourly all day and there's need for more stock to strengthen services between Shrewsbury and Birmingham International. The 0832 departure from Shrewsbury and the 1609 & 1709 from International need to be six car formations and all too often ATW turn up in the West Midlands with just a 2 car unit because of shortages in the franchise.

There will have to be cycling via Canton as some heavier maintenance has to be carried out there rather than at Machynlleth. The 1709 from International is the subject of many Twitter complaints to ATW re overcrowding as it seems to be formed with only 2 x 158s on most days instead of 4. This results in passengers being left behind at New St
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,110
There will have to be cycling via Canton as some heavier maintenance has to be carried out there rather than at Machynlleth. The 1709 from International is the subject of many Twitter complaints to ATW re overcrowding as it seems to be formed with only 2 x 158s on most days instead of 4. This results in passengers being left behind at New St

Not that often, almost all the work on them is done at Machynlleth - and I suspect that anything that did require Canton could be done at Crewe, nearer to home, if required - or if they really did need to go to Canton, there would still be enough staff in the North who signed them if they were normally confined to Birmingham - Cambrian to send them down to Canton ECS.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top