West Midlands Class 323 - the final countdown

[Techniquest]

I still commute on the 323s after two decades and think they’re brilliant units and I will be sad to see them go.

I think they definitely have a good decade left in them - still as fast as ever on the Cross City.

I'd agree with that, they could easily see their 40s. I don't travel all the time on 323s, I'm just not in the Midlands that often these days, but I'd absolutely agree they're still putting in an excellent performance!

 

[themiller]

Many, many years ago when the 323s were still fairly new, I rode in one from Crewe to Manchester Piccadilly. It was a very fast journey so, when we arrived at Manchester, I asked the driver about them and his reply was to the effect that we'd easily hit 90mph and that all the drivers were really pushing them. I don't know if it was to explore their limits or even if that sort of speed was sanctioned from "on high".

 

[The_Train]

Slow, smelly, terrible seats and consistently poor reliability? No thanks. The 323s are superior by an order of magnitude as far as I'm concerned.

To me, 319s feel every day of their age when you ride them, yet the 323s could pass for years younger.

I love them all - give me the character of the older stock over the new stock any day

 

[Jamesrob637]

323s would easily go another 15 years if retrofitted with air-con.

 

[QSK19]

They need to be kept solely for their legendary sound - that is the most important criterion

Seriously though, as others have said, they don’t seem as old as they actually are. Many years of service ahead of them (providing that funding continues, of course!).

 

[GWVillager]

I have to disagree with everyone - I think they feel very old and tired. They’re not quite good enough for a modern urban transport network, and I very much look forward to using the 730s.

Of course, I will miss the sounds!

 

[jfollows]

323s would easily go another 15 years if retrofitted with air-con.

323s don't need air conditioning; it usually means that the opening windows get sealed closed and then the trains are intolerable when the air conditioning fails, such as on 158s.
I'm happy that they (and the 331s) are now on my local services. We had to put up with a motley collection of DMUs after the 2018 timetable change. 319s are knackered although they're fine to travel on when they don't break down. I don't mind the 3+2 seating, it's not inappropriate for a Wilmslow-Manchester stopping service, the journey is short enough to make little difference. So I'd be happy with them for 15 more years as they are today.

 

[Liam L]

I have to disagree with everyone - I think they feel very old and tired. They’re not quite good enough for a modern urban transport network,

I have to disagree, There perfectly suited for cross city work with their quick acceleration and braking. However I don't think the recent refurb hasn't aged very well in my opinion, Does look a bit tatty already but the trains are always clean and tidy when I use them. In terms of their age, I do find it quite hard to believe it will be their 30th year in service next year though.

 

[AJDesiro]

323s don't need air conditioning; it usually means that the opening windows get sealed closed and then the trains are intolerable when the air conditioning fails, such as on 158s.
I'm happy that they (and the 331s) are now on my local services. We had to put up with a motley collection of DMUs after the 2018 timetable change. 319s are knackered although they're fine to travel on when they don't break down. I don't mind the 3+2 seating, it's not inappropriate for a Wilmslow-Manchester stopping service, the journey is short enough to make little difference. So I'd be happy with them for 15 more years as they are today.

158s aren’t exactly a brilliant example, since the air con unreliability is due to the coolant the units were designed for being outlawed, the retrofitted air con on the 165s works very well, and I’ve never been on one that’s failed. I’d much rather the air con having a small chance of failure on a hot summers day, than all trains having no air con, and still being swelteringly hot even with the windows open.

 

[Liam L]

the retrofitted air con on the 165s works very well, and I’ve never been on one that’s failed.

I've been on a few which have failed but when it works, I have to agree it's lovely on warm days

 

[AlastairFraser]

Please, we do not want these cast off 323s in the north-west. We want new air-conditioned trains in 6 or 8 car formations.
The 323s are hot in summer and freezing in winter especially when passing Pendolinos or Voyagers at speed causes all the hopper windows to blow open.
Although very nippy, they are well past their “best before” date.

You won't get what you want until the new rolling stock order arrives.
A 323 over the 319s any day, because they can reliably operate the diagram and that is the most important quality when selecting a class of units for use.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I have to disagree with everyone - I think they feel very old and tired. They’re not quite good enough for a modern urban transport network, and I very much look forward to using the 730s.

Of course, I will miss the sounds!

No I agree with you completely.

 

[Techniquest]

They need to be kept solely for their legendary sound - that is the most important criterion

Seriously though, as others have said, they don’t seem as old as they actually are. Many years of service ahead of them (providing that funding continues, of course!).

Oh yes, the sound of a 323 'Starship' is just amazing. That is probably the primary reason why they're my favourite EMU, although I will add that the 380s are a close second!

Your post inspired me to dig out a video on my YouTube channel, I didn't realise it was from May 2012 until now. The nostalgia is real!

 

[QSK19]

Oh yes, the sound of a 323 'Starship' is just amazing. That is probably the primary reason why they're my favourite EMU, although I will add that the 380s are a close second!

Your post inspired me to dig out a video on my YouTube channel, I didn't realise it was from May 2012 until now. The nostalgia is real!

And this photo - a still from a video that I took in April 2023 (but is too large for the forum) - reflects, IMO, that they don’t look 11 years older! A great image of one departing whilst one arrives (was my son’s first 323 and he was thrilled to see two at the same time!).

 

[Techniquest]

Agreed with you there, the 323s have a rather special ability to defy age it seems! I suspect that may change once the 730s are running alongside them, and the differences between classes becomes much clearer, much like the difference between a 172 and a 196 on WMR is huge now. Until then though, I'm fully expecting a trip to Lichfield on a 323 soon and maybe even Redditch. That's all for a future discussion on a separate thread of course

 

[The_Train]

Oh yes, the sound of a 323 'Starship' is just amazing. That is probably the primary reason why they're my favourite EMU, although I will add that the 380s are a close second!

Your post inspired me to dig out a video on my YouTube channel, I didn't realise it was from May 2012 until now. The nostalgia is real!

The sound is what makes the 323. Very iconic from my childhood, albeit the ones on the Stoke to Manchester line!

 

[Techniquest]

The sound is what makes the 323. Very iconic from my childhood, albeit the ones on the Stoke to Manchester line!

Oh yes! I have good memories of a 323 between Macclesfield and Stoke-on-Trent on my 2011 ALR, the racket they make on that stretch between Macclesfield and Kidsgrove is just mega!

I still think the WMR 323s have gone quieter in recent years, it might just be me!

 

[The_Train]

Oh yes! I have good memories of a 323 between Macclesfield and Stoke-on-Trent on my 2011 ALR, the racket they make on that stretch between Macclesfield and Kidsgrove is just mega!

I still think the WMR 323s have gone quieter in recent years, it might just be me!

There are some good parts on the Crewe to Manchester route as well for them to stretch their legs a bit

 

[Liam L]

I suspect that may change once the 730s are running alongside them,

I'll be the one who waits for the 323 over a 730

I still think the WMR 323s have gone quieter in recent years, it might just be me!

Depends on the unit imo, most of them are quite tuneful, some are quite quiet.

 

[Techniquest]

There are some good parts on the Crewe to Manchester route as well for them to stretch their legs a bit

True that, if you're on a 323 that doesn't stop at Chelford and Goostrey then the opportunity for a 323 to really 'sing' is definitely there.

I'll be the one who waits for the 323 over a 730


Depends on the unit imo, most of them are quite tuneful, some are quite quiet.

I think most of us will favour a 323 over a 730, I think the new trains will be great but the 323s will get me whenever possible. I'll give the 730s a good go though when they arrive

I seem to always land on the really quiet 323s, as if someone found a volume dial and put it from 9 to 4!

 

[Liam L]

I seem to always land on the really quiet 323s, as if someone found a volume dial and put it from 9 to 4!

With the heaters now being on through to Spring Now, it doesn't help, at least the windows can be opened

 

[js1000]

323s would easily go another 15 years if retrofitted with air-con.

Assuming the chassis is in good condition they could do another 20+ years if Porterbrook did a '321 Renatus' style project on them.

And good riddance to the Northern 319s. Far beyond their sell by date. Ridiculously low seats, cramped interior, malfunctioning doors and dreadful acceleration.

 

[43096]

Assuming the chassis is in good condition they could do another 20+ years if Porterbrook did a '321 Renatus' style project on them.

Porterbrook have already upgraded the traction packages on them with new IGBT converters. Internal upgrade would be down to the customer agreeing to it.

 

[childwallblues]

There are some good parts on the Crewe to Manchester route as well for them to stretch their legs a bit

And don't the 319/331 racing track between Euxton Balshaw Lane and Wigan North Western if they ever get up there.

 

[birchesgreen]

I have to disagree with everyone - I think they feel very old and tired. They’re not quite good enough for a modern urban transport network, and I very much look forward to using the 730s.

Of course, I will miss the sounds!

730s will have a lot fewer seats though, at least it will be nicer to stand in.

 

[Liam L]

According to article in the rail magazine, 323212 & 323220 will transfer to northern in mid January. (Subject to change obviously)

Photo credit: @Jacob Porrett

 

[DM352]

I hope any future traction changes don't take that unique sound away like they did with the similar type reinstated Malaysia KTM class 81 that sound more like a 331!

 

[43096]

I hope any future traction changes don't take that unique sound away like they did with the similar type reinstated Malaysia KTM class 81 that sound more like a 331!

The 323s have already been re-tractioned. The new Alstom IGBT converters mimic the original GTO converters to aid re-certification, so they sound the same.

 

[Liam L]

I hope any future traction changes don't take that unique sound away like they did with the similar type reinstated Malaysia KTM class 81 that sound more like a 331!

They had brand new traction racks back in 2017. The nosie was kept the same due to the safety case for the work iirc.

Here the article on the work: https://www.modernrailways.com/article/traction-heart-transplant

 

[Mat17]

Surprised to learn that, likely suffering a touch of memory fade but I imagined all AC slam door EMUs were confined only to perhaps LT&S & certain former GE lines by that point in time?

Some 304s were knocking around until '96.

I still think the 323s look modern and smart, and have aged really well. I remember the 304 and 305 sets in their last few years running around Manchester, they looked like dinosaurs in comparison.