West Sutton route closure 20.04.24

[Deepgreen]

I am trying to establish what is taking place on the West Sutton route today, as NRE has no mention of either engineering works or disruption, but there are no trains all day.

What brought this to my attention was that a steam tour ECS was due to run from Southall via Streatham Junction to join the SWML at Wimbledon, but it encountered a line block and had to make a tortuous set of reversals via Clapham Junction and Queenstown Road.

The ECS arrived at its passenger start point of Horsham over two hours late as a result.

 

[Trainguy34]

Looks like the Thameslink Cores shut so no Sutton loops...

 

[Deepgreen]

Not a significant enough closure to warrant the public being told, perhaps (or the special train planners)!

 

[30907]

Not a significant enough closure to warrant the public being told, perhaps (or the special train planners)!

Not brilliantly described on NRE, certainly, as it's not immediately obvious that eg Elephant is closed, but the absence of W&S trains is listed. Looks like work south of Blackfriars.

How that affects Streatham Jn - Wimbledon isn't clear, though - maybe an unplanned extra bit of work? And why LSL couldn't divert via Sutton or East Croydon isn't obvious - route knowledge?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

At least one train cancellation at Epsom was shown as being due to emergency repairs on the railway, which suggests a broken rail somewhere?

 

[Deepgreen]

At least one train cancellation at Epsom was shown as being due to emergency repairs on the railway, which suggests a broken rail somewhere?

The Sutton loop's closure isn't emergency work, it was planned engineering works that were hidden so well that even the steam special's NR planners missed it.

 

[IrishDave]

The only Thameslink drivers who sign the Sutton Loop are based at Cricklewood, St Albans, Luton and Bedford - all north of the river.

As I understand it there is also a restriction that no driver may be diagrammed to work more than two Sutton Loop trains per shift (as it would be too repetitive). Therefore, it would be so inefficient to try and run a Sutton Loop service with the core blocked, that they don't have enough drivers to make it work.

Therefore, whenever the Core is shut, the Sutton Loop gets no service. What I suspect happened is, the Core block was planned in long ago (I think it's fairly standard for London Marathon weekend as Blackfriars would get too overcrowded anyway), and GTR as usual planned no trains via the Sutton Loop.

At some point after that, NR noticed GTR weren't running anything via the Sutton Loop, asked GTR if they could take an additional possession, and then didn't notice the steam ECS... it's so rare to get non-Thameslink traffic on that line that it probably just didn't occur to anyone.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Not brilliantly described on NRE, certainly, as it's not immediately obvious that eg Elephant is closed, but the absence of W&S trains is listed. Looks like work south of Blackfriars.

How that affects Streatham Jn - Wimbledon isn't clear, though - maybe an unplanned extra bit of work? And why LSL couldn't divert via Sutton or East Croydon isn't obvious - route knowledge?

indeed!

"No trains between Finsbury Park / London St Pancras International and London Bridge on Saturday 20 and Sunday 21 April "

doesn't naturally imply that the Sevenoaks Service will be diverted to Victoria (and halved in frequency too)

 

[30907]

indeed!

"No trains between Finsbury Park / London St Pancras International and London Bridge on Saturday 20 and Sunday 21 April "

doesn't naturally imply that the Sevenoaks Service will be diverted to Victoria (and halved in frequency too)

That is poor - I was surprised to see it.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Sutton loop's closure isn't emergency work, it was planned engineering works that were hidden so well that even the steam special's NR planners missed it.

Thank you; in that case - do we know what exactly the emergency work that led to a cancellation was? ( It was the 07.24 to Dorking; RTT however suggests it was simply terminated at Epsom 25 minutes late - in which case was the wrong code used on the information screens? Or was it 25 late in the first place because of emergency engineering works? )

 

[westcoaster]

The only Thameslink drivers who sign the Sutton Loop are based at Cricklewood, St Albans, Luton and Bedford - all north of the river.

As I understand it there is also a restriction that no driver may be diagrammed to work more than two Sutton Loop trains per shift (as it would be too repetitive). Therefore, it would be so inefficient to try and run a Sutton Loop service with the core blocked, that they don't have enough drivers to make it work.

Therefore, whenever the Core is shut, the Sutton Loop gets no service. What I suspect happened is, the Core block was planned in long ago (I think it's fairly standard for London Marathon weekend as Blackfriars would get too overcrowded anyway), and GTR as usual planned no trains via the Sutton Loop.

At some point after that, NR noticed GTR weren't running anything via the Sutton Loop, asked GTR if they could take an additional possession, and then didn't notice the steam ECS... it's so rare to get non-Thameslink traffic on that line that it probably just didn't occur to anyone.

Quick point Thameslink does not have any restrictions on the number of loops on a drivers shift.

St Albans and cricklewood have done four trips in a shift, and Luton and Bedford have done triple trips.

The issue would be limited stabling facilities south of the river. Also if the line south of Blackfriars is shut the only option would to be running to and from London Bridge.

The issue then would be no St Alban's drivers sign the London bridge diversion routes.

 

[Minstral25]

indeed!

"No trains between Finsbury Park / London St Pancras International and London Bridge on Saturday 20 and Sunday 21 April "

doesn't naturally imply that the Sevenoaks Service will be diverted to Victoria (and halved in frequency too)

It is very common for engineering works and disruptions north of the Core being flagged by Thameslink in their social media, website & other sources but completely ignore the disruption it will cause South of the Core.

With services on both sides they need to think through the full effects of what they are doing.

 

[westcoaster]

Just looked in the relevant publication

Engineering works between Sutton and Wimbledon all weekend.
Engineering works between Blackfriars and Herne hill all weekend.

 

[30907]

Just looked in the relevant publication

Engineering works between Sutton and Wimbledon all weekend.
Engineering works between Blackfriars and Herne hill all weekend.

Which might mean that the TL to SW connection at Wimbledon was inaccessible?

 

[SE%Traveller]

That is poor - I was surprised to see it.

Yeah it's been like that for a few years now pretty poor really

 

[westcoaster]

At least one train cancellation at Epsom was shown as being due to emergency repairs on the railway, which suggests a broken rail somewhere

That service was delayed at Balham most likely due to the special shunting away. Why they didn't send the special down the mainline via Redhill or straight ahead via Sutton is odd.

 

[TRXsouth]

I am trying to establish what is taking place on the West Sutton route today, as NRE has no mention of either engineering works or disruption, but there are no trains all day.

What brought this to my attention was that a steam tour ECS was due to run from Southall via Streatham Junction to join the SWML at Wimbledon, but it encountered a line block and had to make a tortuous set of reversals via Clapham Junction and Queenstown Road.

The ECS arrived at its passenger start point of Horsham over two hours late as a result.

Just to pick up a couple of aspects from the original query; first, what was the steam tour that started from Horsham, an unusual starting point? Second, assuming the tour finished back at Horsham, what alternative route was provided to return the ECS (and the loco?) to Southall?

 

[30907]

Second, assuming the tour finished back at Horsham, what alternative route was provided to return the ECS (and the loco?) to Southall?

RTT says it went as booked, via Redhill, Thornton Heath, Herne Hill, Longhedge Jn - why it wasn't booked outward that way is a mystery.

 

[Class2ldn]

Quick point Thameslink does not have any restrictions on the number of loops on a drivers shift.

St Albans and cricklewood have done four trips in a shift, and Luton and Bedford have done triple trips.

The issue would be limited stabling facilities south of the river. Also if the line south of Blackfriars is shut the only option would to be running to and from London Bridge.

The issue then would be no St Alban's drivers sign the London bridge diversion routes.

There used to be a restriction of only 2 full loops but thats up to st albans or Luton if I remember rightly, from blackfriars we regularly done 3 or 4 on a Sunday or during booked works but you'd never do more then 2 full runs, not that you'd have time anyway in a shift, sometimes and 2 and a half if ecs to Streatham and back to Sutton then clockwise back to blackfriars.
What a job that was lol

 

[Somewhere]

That service was delayed at Balham most likely due to the special shunting away. Why they didn't send the special down the mainline via Redhill or straight ahead via Sutton is odd.

From what I've heard, it was driver route knowledge