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What is first class?

Pseudonym

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Apologies if already covered - I did a search but didn't find an answer to my question.
Is there a national standard as to what is first class, e.g. from the ORR?
There seems to be a massive difference between operators these days. EMR and XC seems to be a "premium economy" offering with a bit of a better seat, but no hot food and very limited refreshments. LNER seems like proper first class with hot food and decent refreshments (often repeated drinks runs).
My worst recently was XC - one lukewarm coffee and a packet of biscuits from Cheltenham to WKF (2 1/2 hours)
My best was LNER - a 2 course hot meal with 3 glasses of wine and 2 coffees from KGX to WKF (2 hours)
I have no experience of the West Coast or GWR.
 
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Horizon22

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No I don't believe there is a national standard.

My worst recently was XC - one lukewarm coffee and a packet of biscuits from Cheltenham to WKF (2 1/2 hours)

Don't try "First Class" in Southern england then - mostly it just sort of guarantees you a seat and a antimacassar on Southeastern, SWR or GTR!
 
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Mojo

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What you consider to be a “proper First class” is a relatively new innovation post-privatisation, with prior to that First class on InterCity services typically including tea and coffee and maybe a packet of biscuits/snacks or the odd exception like some wine on a Friday evening train. Food service on board trains almost always was a paid extra.
 

Pseudonym

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What you consider to be a “proper First class” is a relatively new innovation post-privatisation, with prior to that First class on InterCity services typically including tea and coffee and maybe a packet of biscuits/snacks or the odd exception like some wine on a Friday evening train. Food service on board trains almost always was a paid extra.
True. But at least there was the option.
I asked about hot food on EMR when KGX was shut a good few weeks ago and you couldn't even buy any. Just got an eye roll and "do you you usually travel on LNER?" :lol:
I loved the restaurant car on the old GNER, complete with silver service. If you picked the right train and were polite to the staff you didn't always need a first class ticket to ride all the way in the restaurant. And the food was great.
 

Mugby

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Surely EMR and XC trains no longer have any capability of producing hot food? In fact hasn't even microwaved stuff been withdrawn now too?
 

Jimini

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Surely EMR and XC trains no longer have any capability of producing hot food? In fact hasn't even microwaved stuff been withdrawn now too?

Still get hot bacon rolls (if you're lucky!) on XC.
 

RJ

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For some inspiration of what a First Class service can be, maybe look at the Middle Eastern airlines.

First Class is a good service on the railways if you’re prepared to pay and adjust your expectations suitably. Commuter trains are what they are, there’s not much to mock or complain about other than the lack of policing of them. You don’t want to be paying extra for the space only for it to be oversubscribed with people without valid tickets.

You don’t do First Class for the catering on long distance trains, you do it for a more comfortable seat, more space and maybe a charging point. The catering is too inconsistent between services to really rely on it. Especially on CrossCountry where you can be on a train for 5+ hours with no catering at all.

Then there is the customer service. A few of times staff have created awkward situations for no reason. Once on a York to London service I was asked four times if I was aware I was in First Class then told I needed to present a ticket before I was allowed to sit down. Normally staff warmly greet passengers. On the same line I was denied anything off the trolley despite showing a public rate First Class All Line Rover, because I also my staff pass in my wallet.

Another time on a East Mids service the host streamed straight past me with the trolley and when I raised this with the Train Manager, she rather threateningly said she’d get her to bring the trolley but I’d better not say anything else. A scornful at best approach to service recovery. I was uncomfortable enough with the atmosphere created to move to Standard. Again I was on the First ALR.

Grand Central, the one time I tried them, the carriage was strewn with litter, no hot food or charging points due to a fault, but the carriage was hot due to an aircon defect. The carriage had people who didn’t have a valid ticket (in conversation with each other they revealed they’d move if challenged, which they weren’t) and the guy on the trolley seemed unhappy and unwilling to offer what was on the menu, like juice. Once was enough, I’ve never used Grand Central’s First again.

At Cardiff Central I had the return portion of a London - Cardiff FOR and I was held up at the barriers for a few minutes by a member of staff who decided it had already been used and was searching for evidence of this. It hadn’t been and had been in the ticket wallet for the three weeks since purchase. No marks or damage. Not that he asked, but I frequently passed through the gateline with other tickets after the AM peak, on this occasion it was 7am on a weekday and I decided to use the ticket so I’d have more space to work. I almost missed the train. It wouldn’t be the first time a point was made of getting worse treatment for holding an expensive ticket.

This kind of thing might make a person think “stick First Class, I’m not paying extra to be treated shoddily” but it’s only a tiny minority of staff who make it unpleasant.

Compare and contrast with the airlines. I’ve travelled with British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Emirates, Qatar and Singpore Airlines in First Class. I can categorically state that the staff are never rude, dismissive or outwardly judgemental. Never been accused of fraud for choosing to buy a First Class ticket. And there’s no “best endeavour” approach to the catering - if something is advertised on the menu, it’s available. And they’re always staffed. The railways could do the same if the will was there.

All that said, I do regularly travel in First on GWR between London and Cardiff. The catering consists of drinks and packaged cold food. But the seats are nice, they’re big, they recline and have charging ports. And the staff are always lovely! It’s also policed most of the time so it makes for a very pleasant travel experience.
 

greyman42

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My worst recently was XC - one lukewarm coffee and a packet of biscuits from Cheltenham to WKF (2 1/2 hours)
My best was LNER - a 2 course hot meal with 3 glasses of wine and 2 coffees from KGX to WKF (2 hours)
If you are judging it on the food offering then your comments are fine, however the actual first class coach on a XC service is superior to a first class coach on a LNER service.
 

Fawkes Cat

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For the original question, it's perhaps possible to reverse-engineer an answer from the NRCoT:

15. Using First Class Accommodation
15.1 Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked.

(source: https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf)

So first class accommodation is that within the clearly marked relevant area(s) of the train, and clearly marked relevant seats. Or put more simply, first class is the part of the train that is marked 'first class'.
 

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