What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can the OP or a mod please edit the title of this topic? The way it's written makes no sense at all.

I think "are replaced" is meant to be "replace them."

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think "are replaced" is meant to be "replace them."

I know what was intended, but that isn't what it actually says. I'm relatively tolerant of poor spelling and grammar most of the time (as long as the meaning is clear), but for some reason this one is really grinding my gears!

 

[87015]

I wouldn't say convinced... more told.

Wrong, GWR withdrew maintenance ability. XC and DfT weren’t behind it.

 

[cactustwirly]

Major upgrade in my view then, though I know few will agree.
Mind you, the lovely warm red interiors would then no doubt go a drab blue.

Hopefully yes, I'm not sure a ripped seat and interior fixed with gaffer tape is particularly comfortable on a journey like Edinburgh to Inverness

 

[DanNCL]

You don't know that. The government are taking away the ancient HSTs, yes, and they're giving Grand Central Voyagers that might have worked well on XC - not all of them mind - yes, but that doesn't mean they won't allow any improvements. They may simply believe EMR's redundant fleet of Meridians to make more sense than HSTs.


Those posts are members discussing the possibilities of ScotRail or XC. They certainly don't suggest all the 222s are lined up to be taken by one of them, so I don't think it's fair for me to have expected to known which TOC you meant from those

Which of the two sorry?

The sole involvement of the government in the 221s to GC situation is the government’s refusal to let XC have the sets.

They're not "giving" GC anything. GC (Arriva) and the ROSCO are private companies. They have negotiated a lease, it seems. The Government has nothing to do with it. It wouldn't be the first time a TOC was screwed over by another TOC getting in there first.

In this case it’s one Arriva TOC screwing over another!

Major upgrade in my view then, though I know few will agree.
Mind you, the lovely warm red interiors would then no doubt go a drab blue.

It’s the incumbent Holyrood administration here, so no doubt the units will be covered in Saltires and Tartan.

 

[43096]

Wrong, GWR withdrew maintenance ability. XC and DfT weren’t behind it.

DfT could just have easily told GWR to continue maintaining them. So it was ultimately a DfT/Treasury responsibility.

 

[XAM2175]

"Already lined up for ScotRail" doesn't gel all that well with ASLEF saying that absolutely nothing's happened, but I suppose that nobody knowing what the other hands are doing is nothing new.

It’s the incumbent Holyrood administration here, so no doubt the units will be covered in Saltires and Tartan.

I'm not sure how this is meant to be either erudite or humorous considering that we already know how both the HSTs and ScotRail's ordinary fleet are kitted out.

 

[JonathanH]

The sole involvement of the government in the 221s to GC situation is the government’s refusal to let XC have the sets.

Do you know that? What if XC are equally comfortable to operate as they are doing at the moment? What if the additional stabling, timetable changes, staff etc aren't lined up yet?

 

[DanNCL]

I'm not sure how this is meant to be either erudite or humorous considering that we already know how both the HSTs and ScotRail's ordinary fleet are kitted out.

P*ss take out of the SNP’s recent desire to have tartan or saltire on just about everything.
ScotRail’s ‘ordinary fleet’ has got Saltires on it, indeed Saltire is the name of the livery.

Do you know that? What if XC are equally comfortable to operate as they are doing at the moment? What if the additional stabling, timetable changes, staff etc aren't lined up yet?

Yes I do know that the government had no involvement whatsoever in a private company leasing trains from another private company.
The government have full control over what stock XC use, what XC itself thinks is ultimately irrelevant as it has little-no impact on the outcome.

 

[RailWonderer]

The Meridians seem to be a perfect match for Scotrail to see off unreliable costly HSTs. They just need a refurbishment as the seats and carpets are very dirty and I imagine they will be very popular.

 

[m79900]

I can't imagine they'd manage too well with relatively slow, stop-start nature of the scotrail services

 

[Energy]

Wrong, GWR withdrew maintenance ability. XC and DfT weren’t behind it.

Exactly, XC would likely still have them running otherwise. GWR's removal of HST maintanence to allow 802 maintanence instead would have been singed of by the DfT.

 

[43096]

Exactly, XC would likely still have them running otherwise. GWR's removal of HST maintanence to allow 802 maintanence instead would have been singed of by the DfT.

But GWR have somehow miraculously re-found the ability to maintain HST sets beyond the end of this year for their volte face on their own fleet?

Come on. It's all DfT's doing and to pretend otherwise is naive.

 

[Energy]

But GWR have somehow miraculously re-found the ability to maintain HST sets beyond the end of this year for their volte face on their own fleet?

Come on. It's all DfT's doing and to pretend otherwise is naive.

Maintaining the 4 HSTs is going to be much less than the current XC and GWR HSTs.

 

[MML]

The Meridians need a re-glaze too. Lots of blown windows with condensation between the glass.
I actually think the seating on the class 180s was better. Meridians with fabric arm and headrests is a really big mistake.

 

[43096]

Maintaining the 4 HSTs is going to be much less than the current XC and GWR HSTs.

You’ve missed the point. There’s not a huge amount of difference between 4 retained GWR sets and the XC fleet. At one point there was no plan for either to be retained, yet now there is capacity for some GWR sets.

I’ll repeat, the XC decision was a DfT one, not a GWR one.

 

[Railperf]

I can't imagine they'd manage too well with relatively slow, stop-start nature of the scotrail services

Why not? They coped very well with EMT/ EMR stoppjng services over the years. From a performance view they have good acceleration and brakes, ample power to tackle HML gradients without losing speed. And the most reliable DMU fleet in the country. Thr question is whether Scotrail can maintain them to similar levels if they go there.

 

[Energy]

I’ll repeat, the XC decision was a DfT one, not a GWR one.

Of course, the DfT are the ones in charge now.

You’ve missed the point. There’s not a huge amount of difference between 4 retained GWR sets and the XC fleet. At one point there was no plan for either to be retained, yet now there is capacity for some GWR sets.

GWR and XC would be 10 HSTs, bit different to just 4. GWR is short term anyway due to staff training.

 

[D365]

Why not? They coped very well with EMT/ EMR stoppjng services over the years.

The Class 222s were reported at the time as not being suitable on EMT Sprinter diagrams.

 

[liamf656]

Why not? They coped very well with EMT/ EMR stoppjng services over the years.

No they didn’t. They became very unreliable on the Leicester to Lincoln stopper and their capacity is awful for a route like Nottingham to Liverpool and I believe there are one or two minor issues in the Hope Valley with speed restrictions. They have 20mph speed restrictions across the fens so can’t go to Norwich and they’re not cleared on anything else so they can’t go to Skegness, Doncaster, Worksop or Matlock

These issues will only be repeated if they worked the Scotrail services mentioned above

 

[RobShipway]

No they didn’t. They became very unreliable on the Leicester to Lincoln stopper and their capacity is awful for a route like Nottingham to Liverpool and I believe there are one or two minor issues in the Hope Valley with speed restrictions. They have 20mph speed restrictions across the fens so can’t go to Norwich and they’re not cleared on anything else so they can’t go to Skegness, Doncaster, Worksop or Matlock

These issues will only be repeated if they worked the Scotrail services mentioned above

Before any mentions it, I don't believe that the remaining class 221's with AWC, after the ones have moved to Grand Central would be any better on the stop/start services at Scotrail and there would not be enough anyway to cover all the HST services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Before any mentions it, I don't believe that the remaining class 221's with AWC, after the ones have moved to Grand Central would be any better on the stop/start services at Scotrail and there would not be enough anyway to cover all the HST services.

The ScotRail services the 222s will be used on are no more stop start than the MML, for which these things were built. I think some people forget how big Scotland is!

 

[stevieinselby]

The ScotRail services the 222s will be used on are no more stop start than the MML, for which these things were built. I think some people forget how big Scotland is!

Exactly! On the HML, apart from Kingussie to Newtonmore and Haymarket to Waverley, stops are generally at least 10 minutes apart and often quite a bit more than that. On the Aberdeen route, you're looking at running times of 15–20 minutes and upwards. EMR services to Nottingham stop more frequently than that!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The motors could be regeared for higher acceleration but lower top speed.....

 

[Speed43125]

Exactly! On the HML, apart from Kingussie to Newtonmore and Haymarket to Waverley, stops are generally at least 10 minutes apart and often quite a bit more than that. On the Aberdeen route, you're looking at running times of 15–20 minutes and upwards. EMR services to Nottingham stop more frequently than that!

In fairness you do get the odd peak extra stop in the likes of Larbert or Dunblane.

The motors could be regeared for higher acceleration but lower top speed.....

Do we know why didn't this happen for the short HST sets then? I suspect ROI on essentially short term uses of stock doesn't justify the outlay?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

The ScotRail services the 222s will be used on are no more stop start than the MML, for which these things were built. I think some people forget how big Scotland is!

How do you know the 222's will be at ScotRail though? There's nothing been mentioned about it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you know the 222's will be at ScotRail though? There's nothing been mentioned about it.

Sorry, typo, should have said "would".

 

[MarkyT]

Do we know why didn't this happen for the short HST sets then? I suspect ROI on essentially short term uses of stock doesn't justify the outlay?

I suspect it would be an expensive exercise manufacturing and changing those big main precision-made gears. And there might plausibly be space issues too, changing the relative diameters of the final drive gear wheels could foul some other equipment on the bogies.

 

[Snow1964]

Bit in bold is worth noting


Given that the tender only specifies up to 17 Class 810 units then subsequently up to 17 Class 222 units I’m unsure where the rest of the 222 fleet will go. Although I’m not fully clued up on this sort of thing the 28 day wheel rotation must be a good sign, unless anyone can explain further?

Does anywhere actually have minimum 10m high fences (33 feet), even most MOD sites, prisons, and airports tend to have fences nearer 4-6m with barbed wire at the top

Class 810 and Class 222 Vehicle Storage [Tender Notice]

The contract is for the storage of up to 17, 5 car Class 810 vehicles prior to entry into service. ... A Tender Notice by Abellio East Midlands. Value £900K.

bidstats.uk

 

[Energy]

Does anywhere actually have minimum 10m high fences (33 feet), even most MOD sites, prisons, and airports tend to have fences nearer 4-6m with barbed wire at the top

Class 810 and Class 222 Vehicle Storage [Tender Notice]

The contract is for the storage of up to 17, 5 car Class 810 vehicles prior to entry into service. ... A Tender Notice by Abellio East Midlands. Value £900K.

bidstats.uk

I suspect they meant 10ft.