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Who is 'An Authorised Person'?

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BestWestern

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Mod Note: Split from this thread.

Does being waved through the gateline not provide a degree of evidence regarding permission by an authorised person?
 
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455driver

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Gateline staff cannot authorise travel, neither can the cleaner, tea lady etc etc!
 

miami

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Gateline staff cannot authorise travel, neither can the cleaner, tea lady etc etc!

So what is the definition of "authorised person"?

So the gateline staff can prevent you from boarding, but not allow you to board?
 

Realfish

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Gateline staff cannot authorise travel, neither can the cleaner, tea lady etc etc!

Really? (Genuine question)

I would have thought that any passenger, having been given permission to proceed to the platforms by gateline staff (as in this case) could reasonably believe that they have permission to travel. They are seen as the gatekeepers by the uninitiated.

Also, in my own experience, the gateline staff at Cardiff are quite diligent in the normal course of their work.
 

reb0118

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So what is the definition of "authorised person"?

So the gateline staff can prevent you from boarding, but not allow you to board?

A member of the gateline staff may unofficially allow you to pass his gateline sans billet but he has no authority to allow you to board trains.

Even duty managers at our stations do not have the absolute authority to allow ticketless passengers to board trains as they had their "permit to travel" slips withdrawn a few years ago. They can ask the guard if he will allow it. However,........

.........even a guard can not officially allow you to travel without a ticket, pass, or permit unless he completes a TIR (Ticket Irregularity Report) and issues a zero fare.

AFAIAA It states in the bye-laws that a servant of the railway can not waive any of the bye-laws so even if you get permission you are not covered in the event of any prosecution unless you have been issued with either a written "permit to travel", an UFN, a zero fare, or equivalent. This is the theory. However,......

...........in practice?.........
 

gimmea50anyday

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The problem is the oft quoted "oh, the bloke on the platform said it was alright" when people are trying it on. Those gateline or platform staff will actively seek out and confer with the traincrew first but yes they are authorised to consider travelling publics needs. There are however too many people who arent genuine and instead pushing their luck in order to get away with paying less/nothing leaving gateline staff who have to put up with the crap they get to take a hard line.

This guy on wednesday, tried to barge past me thru the gateline in Newcastle. Was politely told where the ticket office was but insisted he would buy it on the train. Resorted to threats and abuse because neither myself or the gateline staff would let him through. Hovered over the ticket machine to make it look as tho he was buying a ticket then by this point station security were keeping an eye on him....

Thats what gateline staff have to face on a daily basis, and you wonder why they have to be so rigid!
 

crehld

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No one's suggesting some people don't chance it, which is why the testimony of those alleged to have given permission is important in providing evidence whether or not permission was actually given.
 

Clip

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This is alarmingly incorrect. This seems to have generated a fair amount of discussion of who an authorised person is. Helpfully byelaw 25(1)(i) provides the answer:



The gate line staff, who was employed by a railway operator and who was exercising their duties therefore falls well within the position of an authorised person.


No, you are alarmingly incorrect. Just because they are employed by the TOC doesn't automatically give them the power to authorise travel.
 

ian959

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The gate line staff, who was employed by a railway operator and who was exercising their duties therefore falls well within the position of an authorised person.

Surely that is dependent upon what their duties are? If their duties are to sweep the platforms only, then giving people permission to travel on trains is rather outside the extent of their duties? I presume that gateline staff are there to check tickets, assist passengers with queries and not much more than that? In which case, their duties would not extend to giving permission to travel thus it would fall outside the scope of "exercising their duties"?
 

crehld

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No, you are alarmingly incorrect. Just because they are employed by the TOC doesn't automatically give them the power to authorise travel.

I find myself in a bewilderment at having quoted directly from the railway byelaws, that I am incorrect. Perhaps I made the quotation up? Perhaps these railway byelaws don't actually exist? Or perhaps they do exist, they are exactly as I quote them and those who challenge their existence don't in fact know of their existence and/or their content? Who knows?

Perhaps it would help if I provided a link to what I believe are the relevant byelaws, so all can see my reasoning: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

I am willing to entertain the possibility that I may well be incorrect or even the possibility that I am making such byelaws up. All I ask is those who challenge this view could kindly point me in the direction of what are the definitive byelaws.

For the purpose of clarity and to ensure this thread stays on topic, let us walk through what the byelaws say about the OP's alleged situation. To ensure no unnecessary offence is caused to those who purport I know not what I am on about, let us simply say this is my opinion, although the passages from the byelaws I am about to quote remain matters of fact.

Railway byelaw 18(1) states that:

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.

and railway byelaw 18(2) states that:

A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.

By entering a train for the purpose of travel without a valid ticket and by being unable to produce a valid ticket on demand, the OP was in breach of these byelaws.

However, railway byelaw 18(3)(iii) states that:

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
...
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.

The OP states they were given permission to to board the train for the purpose of travel by three persons: the ticket office clerk, the gate line assistant and the guard of the train itself. All of these are employees of a railway operator who were, at the time of the OP's asking, exercising their duties. Whether or not such persons were authorized to grant travel is irrelevant in the view of byelaw 18(3)(iii). All that matters is that these people did give permission and that they were authorised persons, as defined in byelaw 25(1).

Should the OP's version of events be found to be true, I do not see how a prosecution under byelaw 18(1) or byelaw 18(2) can possibly succeed , given the conditions in byelaw 18(3) have been satisfied.
 

crehld

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Gateline staff cannot authorise travel, neither can the cleaner, tea lady etc etc!

This is alarmingly incorrect. This seems to have generated a fair amount of discussion of who an authorised person is. Helpfully byelaw 25(1)(i) provides the answer:

"authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;

The gate line staff, who was employed by a railway operator and who was exercising their duties therefore falls well within the position of an authorised person.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
AFAIAA It states in the bye-laws that a servant of the railway can not waive any of the bye-laws so even if you get permission you are not covered in the event of any prosecution unless you have been issued with either a written "permit to travel", an UFN, a zero fare, or equivalent. This is the theory. However,......

...........in practice?.........

Perhaps you could point us to this (mythical) byelaw which contains these provisions?
 
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HMS Ark Royal

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I find myself in a bewilderment at having quoted directly from the railway byelaws, that I am incorrect. Perhaps I made the quotation up? Perhaps these railway byelaws don't actually exist? Or perhaps they do exist, they are exactly as I quote them and those who challenge their existence don't in fact know of their existence and/or their content? Who knows?


It is okay, crehld - I believe you
 

Clip

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I find myself in a bewilderment at having quoted directly from the railway byelaws, that I am incorrect. Perhaps I made the quotation up? Perhaps these railway byelaws don't actually exist? Or perhaps they do exist, they are exactly as I quote them and those who challenge their existence don't in fact know of their existence and/or their content? Who knows?
.


Ok Ill point out the relevant parts that you yourself quoted but failed to take notice of

course of his duties

authorised by an Operator

execution of his duties

Now ill point out once again that not all gateline staff or other people working for TOCs are authorised or have duties that include giving people the right to travel without a ticket.

Its obvious that I don't know my job nor that of my staff over some people on the internet. May as well just leave now.
 

Stigy

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Ok Ill point out the relevant parts that you yourself quoted but failed to take notice of







Now ill point out once again that not all gateline staff or other people working for TOCs are authorised or have duties that include giving people the right to travel without a ticket.

Its obvious that I don't know my job nor that of my staff over some people on the internet. May as well just leave now.
I can see your point to an extent, but you're wrong regarding Gateline Staff. I appreciate that the station wouldn't authorise travel as it's not in their remit to, but that's not the case for those manning the gates at stations. For example in times of disruption, or when queues are excessive, it would be staff at the ticket gates that often tell passengers to board without a ticket etc. This is quite reasonable, and clearly within their remit.
 
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reb0118

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For example in times of disruption, or when queues are excessive, it would be the staff at the ticket gates that often tell passengers to board without a ticket etc.

Yes, agreed that this happens.

This is quite reasonable,....

Agreed that this is reasonable behaviour.

....and clearly within their remit.

This is the bit I'm not sure about. I would suspect that the gateline staff would be acting on the instructions of a higher authority. In any case being able to board without a ticket is not the same as being able to travel without a ticket. I would assume that the requirement for the passenger to purchase one at their earliest opportunity remains?......
 

Solent&Wessex

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A member of the gateline staff may unofficially allow you to pass his gateline sans billet but he has no authority to allow you to board trains.

Even duty managers at our stations do not have the absolute authority to allow ticketless passengers to board trains as they had their "permit to travel" slips withdrawn a few years ago. They can ask the guard if he will allow it. However,........

.........even a guard can not officially allow you to travel without a ticket, pass, or permit unless he completes a TIR (Ticket Irregularity Report) and issues a zero fare.

AFAIAA It states in the bye-laws that a servant of the railway can not waive any of the bye-laws so even if you get permission you are not covered in the event of any prosecution unless you have been issued with either a written "permit to travel", an UFN, a zero fare, or equivalent. This is the theory. However,......

...........in practice?.........

There is no such provision in the Byelaws, but there is in the Conditions of Carriage, which state:

58. Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents
A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

Personally I tend to agree that it isn't up the gateline staff to decide whether somebody can travel for free or not. Should any staff in the course of their duties decide that somebody can travel without a ticket, then verbal authorisation is never sufficient, but an authority to travel, unpaid fares notice or some other similar written authorisation should be issued.
 
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Clip

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I can see your point to an extent, but you're wrong regarding Gateline Staff. I appreciate that the station wouldn't authorise travel as it's not in their remit to, but that's not the case for those manning the gates at stations. For example in times of disruption, or when queues are excessive, it would be staff at the ticket gates that often tell passengers to board without a ticket etc. This is quite reasonable, and clearly within their remit.

I'm not wrong as ours and most at TOCs I have worked for do not hold the authority to give people travel without a ticket. You are using an extreme disruption as a condition that they may be allowed to say so but as has already been mentioned that comes from a higher authority.

Gateline assistants are there to help those who have trouble with their tickets and any irregularities to be passed on to someone else - like yourself(still an RPI I take it).

I still remember at one TOC we had to remove the cards to give people travel because it was being heavily abused not only by gateline assistants ~( to their mates) but also those who had access to them and not from the retail environment.
 

crehld

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This has all the hallmarks of an interesting debate. Again, so not to offend those who seem so easily offended, allow me to present my opinion (which is open to change if a coherent, well grounded and rational argument can be presented).

Firstly, we need to recognize that the purpose of byelaw 18(3)(iii) is not to specify who is allowed to give permission to travel, so all discussions around this are maybe irrelevant here (I imagine this is a matter for the management of the railway company). Rather the purpose of byelaw 18(3) is to exclude certain persons who meet the criteria outlined in that byelaw who may otherwise be in breach of byelaws 18(1) and 18(2). Byelaw 18(3)(iii) in particular excludes those who have been given permission by an 'authorised person'.

The purpose of byelaw 25(1)(i) is to define what is meant by an authorized person:

"authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;

It's clear that the phrase "acting in the course of his duties" is the area of contention. This I think comes down to whether we adopt a 'narrow' or 'broad' definition of this phrase. In the 'narrow' conception a person is only permitted to give permission if expressly authorised (and/or not expressly forbidden) to do so by their employing railway company. In the 'broad' conception, the person giving permission simply has to be fulfilling their duties of employment at the time of giving permission (regardless of whether or not they are allowed to give permission).

If we were to take the 'narrow' approach this leads to an additional interesting question around whether or not certain railway employees are expressly forbidden to grant permission to travel. If they are forbidden then, under the 'narrow' interpretation, those employees have acted beyond the course of their duties (which in itself raises questions as to why many seemingly do so when they are not permitted). If they are not expressly forbidden, and in the context of their duties it might be seen as entirely reasonable for those duties to encompass the process of giving permission to travel to passengers (as one might expect ticket office clerks, gateline assistants and guards to be) then we might say they are acting within the course of their duties.

I'm minded to go for the 'broad' definition personally, but on reflection I'm now not too sure. The phrase "acting in the course of his duties" (or similar) appears frequently in legislation, so one would expect a wide range of case law is available to assist our interpretation. Perhaps one of our more learned forum posters is in position to mobilize such case law and inform this interesting debate further.

For now I'll summarize my position (which remains an opinion and open to change) as follows: whether or not a member of gateline staff, ticket office clerk or train guard are actually authorized to give permission is irrelevant in the view of the byelaws (subject to the broad interpretation outlined above). What is relevant is:
  • Was the passenger given permission to board a train for the purpose of travel?
  • Was the person giving permission an employee or agent of a railway operator?
  • Was the person giving permission at the time fulfilling their duties of employment (interpreted broadly)?

I will conclude by simply saying that discussions on whether or not such permission to travel should be phsyically written are irrelevant. The byelaws make no such requirement. This much, at least, I feel confident saying is a matter of fact.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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You know, I always chuckle when I see "agent" being used in railway law - always gives me images of 007 acting as guard on 2C07 from Hull!
 

HMS Ark Royal

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"So, Goldfinger, you travelled in First Class but only had a standard class ticket...?"
 

HMS Ark Royal

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"Bond, we've had reports of a large number people fare evading out of St Pancras - find them and eliminate them. Once that happens, travel to Nottingham and speak to a man disguised as the Excess Fares office"
 

Fare-Cop

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The phrase "acting in the course of his duties" (or similar) appears frequently in legislation, so one would expect a wide range of case law is available to assist our interpretation. Perhaps one of our more learned forum posters is in position to mobilize such case law and inform this interesting debate further.

For now I'll summarize my position (which remains an opinion and open to change) as follows: whether or not a member of gateline staff, ticket office clerk or train guard are actually authorized to give permission is irrelevant in the view of the byelaws (subject to the broad interpretation outlined above). What is relevant is:
  • Was the passenger given permission to board a train for the purpose of travel?
  • Was the person giving permission an employee or agent of a railway operator?
  • Was the person giving permission at the time fulfilling their duties of employment?
.


This is exactly why, when training new inspectors in the Police & Criminal Evidence Act (1984) Codes of Practice as relevant to RPIs for when gathering evidence and making out statements, I always insist that the RPI starts their statement by giving a clear, written definition of the writer's job title and summary of their duties.

We frequently see this dispute raised, i.e: Traveller is reported and says - 'I showed the bloke at the barrier, he said it was OK and let me through.' , but when Barrier staff are questioned the response is very frequently along these lines - 'I wasn't sure if the Train Manager would allow him to use it so I let him through and told him to check with the TM. I said he could go and ask, but I am not able to say the ticket was valid.'

That isn't the same as giving someone authority to travel without a valid ticket.

In my experience, all rail staff will have a clear idea of their role and level of authority from their individual job specification. If, on occasion it is necessary for us to get a statement from the barrier staff in such cases, that much always becomes abundantly clear.
 

lejog

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This has all the hallmarks of an interesting debate. Again, so not to offend those who seem so easily offended, allow me to present my opinion (which is open to change if a coherent, well grounded and rational argument can be presented).

<snip>

It's clear that the phrase "acting in the course of his duties" is the area of contention. .

I agree with crehld. The bylaws define an "authorised person" to be "a person acting in the course of his duties who is an employee or agent of an Operator", it appears to me that in fairly plain English that a passenger may assume that any railway employee performing their job is an authorised person. What are we supposed to do if a railway employee allows travel without a ticket, start an inquisition to determine whether or not they are authorised by their company to do so?

If the person is not authorised by the TOC to allow ticketless travel, but does so, then that is the TOC's problem not the passenger's.

(This assumes that there is no case law that invalidates the plain English interpretation of that clause).
 
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CheesyChips

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Just to muddy the waters even more...even though we can spend days presenting back and forth arguments and rebuttals on a forum, it's just as important to consider what the "typical passenger" would perceive as being an authorised agent. They only get to consider the matter for a few seconds and I'm sure nowhere near the same length.

If a passenger is given authority by somebody who has no right to do so (i.e a clown with a jacket on adorned with TOC branding) is the passenger in the same position legally as if they just jumped over the barriers?
 

najaB

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Posts #26 and #27 highlight that the key issue with Byelaw 18.3 is people assuming that they have been given permission to travel by an authorised person, rather than being given permission to travel by a person they assumed to be authorised.
 

Jonfun

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The problem is, the question asked by the passenger isn't always the question they want answering. "Yes, this train stops at Macclesfield" isn't the same as "Yes, you can use this ticket on this train to Macclesfield" yet very often you'll get "oh, well I asked him, and he said it was okay". In a number of cases, the passenger will deliberately look for a member of staff they think are unlikely to know about tickets. Of course, the easiest way to solve this would be to insist that staff mark tickets with a suitable endorsement having seen them, but the challenge then is persuading certain staff to actually do it - whether for fear of getting it wrong and dropping themselves in it or other reasons.
 
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