Why did we need HS1?

[Sir Felix Pole]

From the perspective of running a high-speed continental train service it was, but having French travellers arrive into the UK at a station called Waterloo is arguably one of the greatest examples of British cheekiness you could find in the history books.

Some wags wanted to rename St. Pancras Agincourt when the service was moved from Waterloo. Winston Churchill allegedly wanted his funeral train to depart from Waterloo - Paddington would have been the logical choice - specifically to annoy attendee Charles de Gaulle.

 

[Bald Rick]

the line is very much underutilised as of now.

Not compared to most other high speed lines in Europe, it isn’t!

but there was a real magic in boarding Eurostar and weaving your way through through Herne Hill and Beckenham Junction on your way to the Mediterranean, as I did on my first use of Eurostar in 1999.

On my first Eurostar trip in 1997, weaving through the wilds of SE London at 60mph if you were lucky (and on later trips) running parallel to trams - once even being overtaken by one - was frankly *embarrassing*

Departing St Pancras for Brussels the week after Phase 2 opened, and belting along the rollercaoster that is Aveley viaduct, under thA13, over the Tilbury Loop, over then under the approaches to the Dartford Crossing, plunging rapidly into the Thames Tunnel, all at 225km/h - now that was magic.

 

[nw1]

Some wags wanted to rename St. Pancras Agincourt when the service was moved from Waterloo. Winston Churchill allegedly wanted his funeral train to depart from Waterloo - Paddington would have been the logical choice - specifically to annoy attendee Charles de Gaulle.

Oh dear, if true that has lessened my opinion of him.

Not compared to most other high speed lines in Europe, it isn’t!




On my first Eurostar trip in 1997, weaving through the wilds of SE London at 60mph if you were lucky (and on later trips) running parallel to trams - once even being overtaken by one - was frankly *embarrassing*

But it was arguably quite a feat to build the tunnel and connect it to the UK rail network in the first place. Baby steps and all that...

(I will admit that I have a strong emotional connection to the "Southern" (Southern Region, NSE and successors), dating from first using it back in 1982, which might explain my possibly illogical comment about the magic of being on a Eurostar and passing through familiar "Southern" stations and sharing the line with familiar "Southern" EMUs).

Departing St Pancras for Brussels the week after Phase 2 opened, and belting along the rollercaoster that is Aveley viaduct, under thA13, over the Tilbury Loop, over then under the approaches to the Dartford Crossing, plunging rapidly into the Thames Tunnel, all at 225km/h - now that was magic.

I don't disagree but there was something special about those early pioneering days .

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It did have a lot of charm, though, arguably. There was something strangely appealing in starting your long journey to the South of France sharing your railway with CEPs and VEPs. The contrast between the familiar and the exotic, I guess.

That's not to say I'd want a return to the slower journey times now, but there was a real magic in boarding Eurostar and weaving your way through through Herne Hill and Beckenham Junction on your way to the Mediterranean, as I did on my first use of Eurostar in 1999.

Still remember the time of my first ever Eurostar: the 0823 non-stop to Paris. The pattern at the time seemed to be xx23 to Paris and xx27 to Brussels, but not every hour (sometimes also the xx53 and xx57 paths were used too). The WTTs from the late 90s and early 00s on Network Rail show the timings, there was some quite clever "flighting" of South Eastern domestic services to allow free paths through Tonbridge for a couple of Eurostars each half hour.


I suppose in the more liberal, globalist and broad-minded times of 1991, we saw closer integration with the continent as our future and envisaged a softer, not harder, border. The hard border really kills any possibility of HS1 expansion to a wider range of destinations as it requires the installation of border facilities in every continental station served. But hey, that's the British Way I guess. Hard borders are more important than being an integral part of an international inter-city rail network.

My understanding was that the early 80s computers used to do demand modelling predicted insane passenger numbers for the Eurostar, hence the crazy long train. Although I might have completely misread that passage.

which might explain my possibly illogical comment about the magic of being on a Eurostar and passing through familiar "Southern" stations and sharing the line with familiar "Southern" EMUs).

No it absolutely was. Growing up in South London and weaving through Brixton and Herne Hill, overlooking Brockwell Park on the way to Paris was truly magical.

 

[ExRes]

Oh dear, if true that has lessened my opinion of him.

What's your opinion of De Gaulle then? he openly hated Britain and the British

 

[HST43257]

Did HS1 receive the same level of backlash HS2 gets?

Yes until, shock horror, it was useful

 

[AlbertBeale]

I used Eurostar once prior to HS1 opening, in 1999 to view the total eclipse in Northern France. The route into Waterloo was totally unsuitable, slow and busy. Once HS1 opened in full journey times were slashed. Terminating at St Pancras is much more useful than Waterloo, taking Euston as well which is only 10mins walk, you have every major north of London destination available in one place with no need to use the underground to transfer which saves further time if you are travelling from the Midlands or North.

Since HS1 opened we use Eurostar regularly, if it hadn't been built and we still had to get to Waterloo and then spend an hour ambling through South London on commuter lines before getting onto high speed track towards Paris then we would fly. I cant be alone in this view, which is backed up by the number of people who get off arriving services at Kings X and make for the Eurostar terminal, also the number of people dragging suitcases down Euston Rd from Euston.

As has been aired in other threads Eurostar capacity is limited by facilities at St Pancras to process passengers, I suspect if more trains could run they would be filled, the demand appears to be there.

Finally, anyone who travelled through Kings Cross or St Pancras in the 80s will remember just how bad the surroundings were, compare that with today, the redevelopment that HS1 helped has transformed the area. Just a shame they didnt build the HS2 terminal instead of the British Library, but I realise HS2 wasn't on the agenda when the redevelopment of the area took place.

HS1 also gives better access domestically to Kent

So whilst some of the planned cross channel services never materialised I would suggest that HS1 acheived a lot of positives.

Re that point about the transformation...

Some of the earlier plans for a KX/StP terminal for international trains would have trashed a lot of the area. As it ended up, much of the inevitably destructive (re)building for the actual terminal facilities has thankfully been on brownfield land (ie the old disused railway lands) - though some people lost their homes in the process. Worse than the rail development itself, however, is the surrounding "regeneration" that has gone along with it. People who've lived and/or worked in the area for much of their lives, and long-existing local businesses, would disagree with the implication that the local transformation has been positive. The development plans themselves brought blight and dereliction onto the local area for decades; locals lost homes and jobs; plans which had been drawn up for (locally much needed) social housing, a school, open space, sports and other facilities for locals, etc etc (on the leftover railway lands) were thrown out and the land was given to "developers" to build high-end shops and "investment homes", corporate offices, etc. This affected not only the remaining parts of the old railway lands, but quite a bit of the surrounding area too. Sometimes, to outsiders, an area can seem run-down and unloved, when for the people actually there it is a functioning community - a community which needs better resources, not obliterating and replacing with something different which is out of reach of the displaced locals.

I speak as someone who didn't "travel through" the area in the '80s, but as someone who's worked there for much of my life and lived in the area for some of the time too.

It did have a lot of charm, though, arguably. There was something strangely appealing in starting your long journey to the South of France sharing your railway with CEPs and VEPs. The contrast between the familiar and the exotic, I guess.

That's not to say I'd want a return to the slower journey times now, but there was a real magic in boarding Eurostar and weaving your way through through Herne Hill and Beckenham Junction on your way to the Mediterranean, as I did on my first use of Eurostar in 1999.

Still remember the time of my first ever Eurostar: the 0823 non-stop to Paris. The pattern at the time seemed to be xx23 to Paris and xx27 to Brussels, but not every hour (sometimes also the xx53 and xx57 paths were used too). The WTTs from the late 90s and early 00s on Network Rail show the timings, there was some quite clever "flighting" of South Eastern domestic services to allow free paths through Tonbridge for a couple of Eurostars each half hour.


I suppose in the more liberal, globalist and broad-minded times of 1991, we saw closer integration with the continent as our future and envisaged a softer, not harder, border. The hard border really kills any possibility of HS1 expansion to a wider range of destinations as it requires the installation of border facilities in every continental station served. But hey, that's the British Way I guess. Hard borders are more important than being an integral part of an international inter-city rail network.

The "hard border" is more to do with Schengen than EU membership or not, and the UK being in Schengen has never really been on the agenda. So surely - unless there were passport checks on trains again - the problem of needing border facilities at every station served by Eurostar is the same as it's always been.

 

[E27007]

What's your opinion of De Gaulle then? he openly hated Britain and the British

Such was the rift between the two, Churchill excluded De Gaulle from the list of VIPs to attend the funeral, Churchill was advised of the strain upon the diplomatic relationship it would cause, an advisor to Churchill suggested Waterloo for De Gaulle to feature in the funeral arrangements, no doubt Churchill was very amused by the idea.

Churchill's viewpoint on De Gaulle

 

[nw1]

The "hard border" is more to do with Schengen than EU membership or not, and the UK being in Schengen has never really been on the agenda.

I realise that, but perhaps it (Schengen) was an aspiration for the medium term in 1991. (I honestly can't remember, at that time I didn't have so much interest in EEC/EU matters). Remember we had a government with the likes of Major, Clarke and Heseltine as key players.

What's your opinion of De Gaulle then? he openly hated Britain and the British

I don't know much about him to be honest but I do take exception to UK leaders picking fights with allies for no reason, unless we're talking about someone truly outrageous (i.e. Trump, and that's about it).

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

I don't know much about him to be honest but I do take exception to UK leaders picking fights with allies for no reason, unless we're talking about someone truly outrageous (i.e. Trump, and that's about it).

Read up about him then, horrible vindictive man.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not from the area, but I get the impression high speed service to London has been a big benefit to the Ashford area, which was previously rather deprived.

 

[PaulJ]

I assume the same applies to the Class 395s that are used on domestic services, the only difference being top speed.


My understanding was there would have been a 'fork' with some services continuing to use Waterloo. The route finally chosen looks to be the best one, as I was told that tunneling under SE London is quite tricky due to ground conditions.

Makes me wonder how the HS2 choices will be viewed in 25 years time, not as positivley I suspect.

I agree but people unfamiliar with the area will not be aware of the route. A simple fix would be marking a level walking route with markers or a line.

I thought the route was marked? It's my default choice when walking from St Pan to Euston.

 

[mike57]

I thought the route was marked? It's my default choice when walking from St Pan to Euston.

It is but a quick look at Streetview shows it to be patchy. To use the old school report phrase 'Could do better'. The silly thing is it wouldn't take much to sort it.

 

[zwk500]

I'm not from the area, but I get the impression high speed service to London has been a big benefit to the Ashford area, which was previously rather deprived.

Ashford and much of Kent have certainly benefitted from the Domestic services. Ashford also did quite well for a time from having the good connections to Lille and Brussels but those seem to be some way off now.

 

[E27007]

The National Audit Office Report of 2012 stated HS1 international passenger volumes are falling far short of original forecasts and the project costs NAU report on HS1

 

[telstarbox]

Re that point about the transformation...

Some of the earlier plans for a KX/StP terminal for international trains would have trashed a lot of the area. As it ended up, much of the inevitably destructive (re)building for the actual terminal facilities has thankfully been on brownfield land (ie the old disused railway lands) - though some people lost their homes in the process. Worse than the rail development itself, however, is the surrounding "regeneration" that has gone along with it. People who've lived and/or worked in the area for much of their lives, and long-existing local businesses, would disagree with the implication that the local transformation has been positive. The development plans themselves brought blight and dereliction onto the local area for decades; locals lost homes and jobs; plans which had been drawn up for (locally much needed) social housing, a school, open space, sports and other facilities for locals, etc etc (on the leftover railway lands) were thrown out and the land was given to "developers" to build high-end shops and "investment homes", corporate offices, etc. This affected not only the remaining parts of the old railway lands, but quite a bit of the surrounding area too. Sometimes, to outsiders, an area can seem run-down and unloved, when for the people actually there it is a functioning community - a community which needs better resources, not obliterating and replacing with something different which is out of reach of the displaced locals.

I speak as someone who didn't "travel through" the area in the '80s, but as someone who's worked there for much of my life and lived in the area for some of the time too.



The "hard border" is more to do with Schengen than EU membership or not, and the UK being in Schengen has never really been on the agenda. So surely - unless there were passport checks on trains again - the problem of needing border facilities at every station served by Eurostar is the same as it's always been.

Urban regeneration is tricky to get right - on one hand there are probably more jobs in the area than in the 1990s but parts of KX do feel very sterile and corporate now. The area around Waterloo feels like it's going the same way.

Ashford and much of Kent have certainly benefitted from the Domestic services. Ashford also did quite well for a time from having the good connections to Lille and Brussels but those seem to be some way off now.

It's definitely helped to reboot the Kent seaside towns as well which were some of the poorest places in the SE.

 

[zwk500]

NAO report on HS1

Link is broken for me

 

[stuu]

The National Audit Office Report of 2012 stated HS1 international passenger volumes are falling far short of original forecasts and the project costs exceed the value of journey time saving benefits. So HS1 is a FAIL

NAO report on HS1

Is that still the case 12 years later? The SE high speed services had only been running for 3 years, and the whole line only open 5 at the time. That's far too short a timescale to describe it as a FAIL

 

[zwk500]

Is that still the case 12 years later? The SE high speed services had only been running for 3 years, and the whole line only open 5 at the time. That's far too short a timescale to describe it as a FAIL

It also needs to consider the value of freeing up capacity on the classic lines and the economic impacts on South London for that

 

[JonathanH]

It also needs to consider the value of freeing up capacity on the classic lines and the economic impacts on South London for that

Where is the service in South London now more frequent than it was prior to 2007 when Eurostar was running on the classic lines? (Just wondering, not questioning that it may be the case.)

 

[Mikey C]

It's definitely helped to reboot the Kent seaside towns as well which were some of the poorest places in the SE.

Indeed, Margate for example has transformed its image from a depressing dump to a cool place in recent years. Not the only reason, but HS1 has definitely helped.

 

[Energy]

The National Audit Office Report of 2012 stated HS1 international passenger volumes are falling far short of original forecasts and the project costs exceed the value of journey time saving benefits. So HS1 is a FAIL

NAO report on HS1

International traffic being short of expected is well known, HS1 international services are constrained by St Pancras' check in facilities being constrained.

However, there are more domestic services than originally envisioned.

 

[Hadders]

I seem to remember there was a lot of backlash against HS1, or the Channel Tunnel Rail Link as it was known at the time. It was only renamed HS1 when it opened.

When catching a Eurostar from Paris to Waterloo the train would speed along the high speed line between Paris and Calais at 186 mph, do 100mph through the tunnel istself and then slow down to 60mph so that passengers 'could admire the scenery in Kent'. It was utterly embarrassing.

As with all infrastructure projects like this we now wonder how we'd manage without HS1. This sort of infrastristure is built for 100 years worth of growth, and 38 minutes from Ashford to St Pancras is amazing and brings more prosperity and prospects to Kent for decades to come.

 

[E27007]

Link is broken

Link is corrected.
NAO HS1 corrected broken link

 

[Bald Rick]

Where is the service in South London now more frequent than it was prior to 2007 when Eurostar was running on the classic lines? (Just wondering, not questioning that it may be the case.)

IIRC there was the increase to 4tph from 2tph for stoppers on the Chatham line corridor from Orpington, and an additional 2tph Tunbridge Wells to Charing Cross.

 

[may032]

Indeed, Margate for example has transformed its image from a depressing dump to a cool place in recent years. Not the only reason, but HS1 has definitely helped.

I’d be interested to know to what extent the south-eastern rail capacity increase helped with this. I suspect it’s more to do with other factors… namely the unaffordable London housing market!

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d be interested to know to what extent the south-eastern rail capacity increase helped with this. I suspect it’s more to do with other factors… namely the unaffordable London housing market!

HS1 is very much a contributoy factor. Not so much the capacity increase, but the reduced journey time to London.

 

[D6130]

When catching a Eurostar from Paris to Waterloo the train would speed along the high speed line between Paris and Calais at 186 mph, do 100mph through the tunnel istself and then slow down to 60mph so that passengers 'could admire the scenery in Kent'. It was utterly embarrassing.

The 60 mph speed widely quoted in the press at the time was, I believe, the average speed....and not the maximum. IIRC, Eurostar trains were permitted to run at 100 mph between Dollands Moor and Tonbridge....and 90 between Tonbridge and Sevenoaks.

 

[may032]

HS1 is very much a contributoy factor. Not so much the capacity increase, but the reduced journey time to London.

Given a significant part of the journey to Margate is still on conventional lines, how much did the journey time descrease? Looks to only be about 15 minutes compared to the Chatham main line

 

[30907]

Churchill was advised of the strain upon the diplomatic relationship it would cause, an advisor to Churchill suggested Waterloo for De Gaulle to feature in the funeral arrangements, no doubt Churchill was very amused by the idea.

But there was a much better reason for using Waterloo - it is adjacent to the river, and using the Thames was (surely) always part of the plan for the cortege. After all, he had been First Lord of the Admiralty.