Why do only Worcester and Hereford InterCity services call at Slough, whilst the rest of GWR inter city services to Paddington skip it.

[Barn]

So fast to Slough?

Some peak trains skip Slough and are fast to/from Maidenhead or Twyford.

Looks like Slough has lost its off-peak advantage over Maidenhead, whilst Maidenhead has kept its peak advantage over Slough.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Vinter's booklet on GW Expresses dated 1901 tells of non-stop expresses between Paddington and Worcester. One each way daily. The down train was timetabled to do the run in 2h 16m start to stop (with 170 tons behind the tender)!

That's pretty amazing, I grant you. I'm really surprised that they didn't stop at least at Oxford - for the university traffic. But of course, in 1901, what other trains were there? I suspect very few, and most of those would have stopped an awful lot of times. In those days, the railways had a stranglehold on long-distance traffic. Passengers travelled when the railway told them they should!

 

[Rescars]

That's pretty amazing, I grant you. I'm really surprised that they didn't stop at least at Oxford - for the university traffic. But of course, in 1901, what other trains were there? I suspect very few, and most of those would have stopped an awful lot of times. In those days, the railways had a stranglehold on long-distance traffic. Passengers travelled when the railway told them they should!

It does seem surprising that even in 1901 there was sufficient traffic to make this service viable. A train of 170 tons can't have had a lot of accommodation though, once you've allowed for a dining car, brake and luggage vans etc, so perhaps there was insufficient space for passengers from the Dreaming Spires! I wonder if someone on the Board lived near Worcester!

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, Maidenhead and Twyford are definite winners from May. It will be interesting to see to what extent passengers ignore the EL services in favour of the much improved 2tph to Paddington terminus. I think the branch timetables are also aligned to connect with the GWR services so Henley and Marlow etc also benefit from improved journey times to/from the capital.

They've been ignoring the Elizabeth line as much as they can since the route opened! Not too much of a fan of the 345s and they are slower of course.

The losers are places like West Drayton.

As for Slough, generally the Worcesters and Herefords have been seen as the "least express" so better to put on, and also I'm fairly sure there's something historical around "Slough for Windsor" and giving the latter a fast connection (although this will be moot in a couple of weeks as the fast services depart from Platforms 4/5 not Platforms 2/3).

 

[brad465]

I (perhaps jokingly) thought that these trains called at Slough so Eton boys had a more direct service to their prospective University (before going onto ruin the country)

 

[davetheguard]

Also worth bearing in mind Slough's status as the junction for Windsor - there's a strong tourist demand for trips out to the Castle and so on.

The Slough stops in Oxford and Cotswold services are effectively a legacy of it having been Thames Trains who had run the Cotswold services.

I think the Slough stops on Paddington - Oxford services date back to Network SouthEast/Thames Trains days, when the idea was to link the tourist hot spots of Windsor & Oxford. The Paddington to Stratford on Avon service that then ran called at Slough for the same reason.

Of course, a lot of the Paddington - Oxfords were then extended in greater & greater numbers to Worcester/Gt. Malvern/Hereford as frequencies were improved on the Cotswold Line, but the Slough stops remained for the original purpose - linking Windsor & Oxford.

 

[cle]

I would think giving Slough a fast London service would, and was, far more busily used and more the intent, than flows from Windsor to Oxford.

 

[Benjwri]

I would think giving Slough a fast London service would, and was, far more busily used and more the intent, than flows from Windsor to Oxford.

And the change of the 387 services to non stop after Slough is likely the reason these Slough stoppers have disappeared for good.

 

[cle]

In theory the 4tph HEx should enable 4tph fast to stop at Slough, by creating that path gap leaving the mainline. I'm not entirely sure why that isn't done, maybe not needed - but could always be something for the future possibly, if ever demand is there.

That service, should in theory, end up back in Oxford one day - albeit not express.

 

[Benjwri]

In theory the 4tph HEx should enable 4tph fast to stop at Slough, by creating that path gap leaving the mainline. I'm not entirely sure why that isn't done, maybe not needed - but could always be something for the future possibly, if ever demand is there.

That service, should in theory, end up back in Oxford one day - albeit not express.

Does it allow enough of a gap? You’re slowing from 125mph to 0 and back to 125. Even with the HEX service between the path gap is only 9 minutes.

Regardless the Slough stoppers we’re causing issues very frequently because the Cotswold services had a strong tendency to be delayed, so they almost always showed a train behind regardless.

 

[nw1]

The new arrangement is something which passengers from Maidenhead and Twyford have been calling for for some time.

I can kind-of attest to that having spent a weekend in Maidenhead (staying with someone) in 2015 and "commuting" into central London on the Saturday and Sunday,
The services definitely seemed slow - there were 4tph but none of the 4 were limited-stop. All 4 stopped either at Taplow and Burnham or Langley and Iver; can't help thinking that an 00-10-30-40 pattern (00/30 skipping all four, and 10/40 calling at all four) would have been better.

Also had cause to travel to Ealing Broadway in 2008, from Reading, using the same pattern of service. This was equally slow, and the return (perhaps around 1600 or 1630 from Ealing) was both slow and overcrowded.

The current arrangement of Maidenhead-Slough-Hayes-Ealing-Paddington (that's right, isn't it?) is itself very much improved on what was present in 2015.

On the other hand, earlier timetables, such as the early Turbo timetables of the 90s, or even the old 117 timetables of the 60s, 70s and 80s, also seemed to be quite limited stop from Maidenhead. The 2004-19 (ish) pattern was notably slow.

Does it allow enough of a gap? You’re slowing from 125mph to 0 and back to 125. Even with the HEX service between the path gap is only 9 minutes.

Regardless the Slough stoppers we’re causing issues very frequently because the Cotswold services had a strong tendency to be delayed, so they almost always showed a train behind regardless.

One interesting design (and I presume it was a design) of the 2004 fast-line timetable was that the Bedwyn at xx18 (Turbo operated) was followed immediately by a Slough stopper (xx21, towards Oxford). The latter was sometimes an HST, so the Slough stop would presumably compensate for the HST potentially catching up the Turbo by Reading.

I (perhaps jokingly) thought that these trains called at Slough so Eton boys had a more direct service to their prospective University (before going onto ruin the country)

Ah, but for the likes of Boris nothing but a quarter-hourly non-stop to Paddington would have sufficed. Operated using HSTs, of course.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It does seem surprising that even in 1901 there was sufficient traffic to make this service viable. A train of 170 tons can't have had a lot of accommodation though, once you've allowed for a dining car, brake and luggage vans etc, so perhaps there was insufficient space for passengers from the Dreaming Spires! I wonder if someone on the Board lived near Worcester!

That might explain a lot!

I think the Slough stops on Paddington - Oxford services date back to Network SouthEast/Thames Trains days, when the idea was to link the tourist hot spots of Windsor & Oxford. The Paddington to Stratford on Avon service that then ran called at Slough for the same reason.

I think they date back to well before such modern ideas as NSE, though I agree that NSE could well have considered the tourism traffic as worth especially catering for when in it existed.

 

[30907]

That might explain a lot!


I think they date back to well before such modern ideas as NSE, though I agree that NSE could well have considered the tourism traffic as worth especially catering for when in it existed.

I don't recall Slough stops on Oxford fasts in my time (pre 78) and in 1982 the stops are on the Cardiff/Bristol semi-fast HSTs. I think they came in with the Turbos.

 

[JonathanH]

1989 timetable - weekday fast line trains from Paddington calling at Slough

0700 Cardiff Central
0715 Bristol Temple Meads
0718 Wolverhampton
0815 Oxford
0840 Cardiff Central
0842 Newbury
1130 Bristol Temple Meads
1215 Oxford
1230 Bristol Temple Meads
1240 Newbury
1440 Newbury
1615 Oxford
1730 Oxford (called all stations from Reading)
1905 Reading
2045 Bristol Temple Meads
2200 Plymouth via Bristol Temple Meads

Up Intercity trains calling at Slough were the 1020 from Bristol Temple Meads (1146), 1126 from Cardiff Central (1310), 1240 from Bristol Temple Meads (1404), 1340 from Bristol Temple Meads (1504), 1414 from Great Malvern (via Cheltenham) (1637), 1545 from Weston-super-Mare (1729), 1536 from Swansea (1810), 1518 from Manchester Piccadilly (1919), 1820 from Bristol Temple Meads (1944), 1935 from Bristol Temple Meads (2100), 2100 from Bristol Temple Meads (2225)

The only through trains to the North Cotswold Line were 1115 Cotswold Express to Worcester Shrub Hill (first stop Reading), 1715 to Hereford (first stop Didcot) and 1815 Cathedrals Express to Hereford (first stop Oxford)

1996 timetable - weekday fast line trains from Paddington calling at Slough

0530 Oxford
0630 Plymouth via Bristol Temple Meads
0720 Oxford (also called Maidenhead / Twyford)
0748 Worcester Foregate Street (also called Maidenhead / Twyford)
0808 Newbury
0815 Bristol Temple Meads
0818 Oxford
0848 Great Malvern
0918 Stratford-upon-Avon
0945 Exeter St Davids via Bristol Temple Meads
0948 Banbury
1048 Hereford
1148 Banbury
1248 Great Malvern
1348 Stratford-upon-Avon
1448 Oxford
1520 Worcester Foregate Street
1548 Oxford
1618 Oxford
1653 Didcot Parkway (also called Maidenhead / Twyford, stopper from Reading)
1723 Oxford (also called Maidenhead / Twyford, stopper from Reading)
1853 Didcot Parkway (also called Maidenhead / Twyford, stopper from Reading)
1920 Hereford
1948 Oxford
2048 Banbury
2148 Banbury
2248 Oxford

Note that this is before Thames Trains ran half hourly to Oxford.

Basically, as Thames Trains stopped more trains at Slough, Great Western stopped less. It is likely that the peak time trains crossed to the relief line before stopping at Slough. Other xx23 / xx53 trains from Paddington in the peak ran to Henley (1753 / 1823) first stop Slough

The 1015 from Bristol Temple Meads was the only up GWT train that called at Slough, at 1144.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I don't recall Slough stops on Oxford fasts in my time (pre 78) and in 1982 the stops are on the Cardiff/Bristol semi-fast HSTs. I think they came in with the Turbos.

Sorry - my argumentation got slightly muddled, because what I wanted to argue was that Slough used to have Inter-City services way back in BR times - as I posited in my post #5 in this thread.

I didn't actually mean all or most Worcester-Herefords stopped there historically - though of course, I can see how it was read that way.

By good fortune, @JonathanH has come up with some evidence of these (very varied, if somewhat random) Inter-City stops in #44. I think back in the early 60s there were probably even more Slough stops - at least relative to the total Inter-City services on offer in those times.

 

[Purple Train]

As for Slough, generally the Worcesters and Herefords have been seen as the "least express" so better to put on, and also I'm fairly sure there's something historical around "Slough for Windsor" and giving the latter a fast connection (although this will be moot in a couple of weeks as the fast services depart from Platforms 4/5 not Platforms 2/3).

That's what I thought - people from Worcester and Hereford were far more deserving of having to halt in this miserable place and observe our mighty fine burnt-out bus station than everyone else (though it made such journeys much easier for Slough locals)! Having said that, the one time I've been up to the Cotswolds, I was only able to make use of the Slough stop on the return journey, as the outbound train was amended to start at Reading due to storm damage, so I should probably leave that judgement for someone who's suffered longer...

 

[30907]

Sorry - my argumentation got slightly muddled, because what I wanted to argue was that Slough used to have Inter-City services way back in BR times - as I posited in my post #5 in this thread.

I didn't actually mean all or most Worcester-Herefords stopped there historically - though of course, I can see how it was read that way.

By good fortune, @JonathanH has come up with some evidence of these (very varied, if somewhat random) Inter-City stops in #44. I think back in the early 60s there were probably even more Slough stops - at least relative to the total Inter-City services on offer in those times.

1965: 0800 and 1000 Paddington-Swansea called, and that was it.
1958: 7.55am Pembroke Dock and 7.30pm Birmingham via Oxford.

 

[jfollows]

1996 timetable - weekday fast line trains from Paddington calling at Slough

0530 Oxford
0630 Plymouth via Bristol Temple Meads
0720 Oxford (also called Maidenhead / Twyford)
0748 Worcester Foregate Street (also called Maidenhead / Twyford)
0808 Newbury
0815 Bristol Temple Meads
0818 Oxford
0848 Great Malvern
0918 Stratford-upon-Avon
0945 Exeter St Davids via Bristol Temple Meads
0948 Banbury
1048 Hereford
1148 Banbury
1248 Great Malvern
1348 Stratford-upon-Avon
1448 Oxford
1520 Worcester Foregate Street
1548 Oxford
1618 Oxford
1653 Didcot Parkway (also called Maidenhead / Twyford, stopper from Reading)
1723 Oxford (also called Maidenhead / Twyford, stopper from Reading)
1853 Didcot Parkway (also called Maidenhead / Twyford, stopper from Reading)
1920 Hereford
1948 Oxford
2048 Banbury
2148 Banbury
2248 Oxford

Note that this is before Thames Trains ran half hourly to Oxford.

Basically, as Thames Trains stopped more trains at Slough, Great Western stopped less. It is likely that the peak time trains crossed to the relief line before stopping at Slough. Other xx23 / xx53 trains from Paddington in the peak ran to Henley (1753 / 1823) first stop Slough

The 1015 from Bristol Temple Meads was the only up GWT train that called at Slough, at 1144.

10:18 down to Windsor also, but it was only advertised to pick up at Slough.
16:53, 17:23, 17p54 (to Henley), 18:23 (to Twyford, then ECS to Reading) & 18:53 crossed to RL at Dolphin Junction, yes. See Network Rail's timetable archive at https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/IO_50c2c773-ef87-4ce2-a0ff-1a2e99a45e49/

 

[Taunton]

Does it allow enough of a gap? You’re slowing from 125mph to 0 and back to 125. Even with the HEX service between the path gap is only 9 minutes.

Regardless the Slough stoppers we’re causing issues very frequently because the Cotswold services had a strong tendency to be delayed, so they almost always showed a train behind regardless.

They are not stopping on the Mains, but crossing at speed to the Reliefs on the high speed crossovers at Dolphin Junction, west of Langley.

However, that in itself seems a risk; these crossovers have been used periodically before, but not for a half-hourly service both ways all day. And of course you only make the move at high speed if you are running on clear signals, for which you need three of the four tracks clear to do. Every 15 minutes. All day. They are not even scheduled to cross both ways in parallel moves.

My experience at Didcot East junction, less traffic than here, is that on an Oxford express service crossing from the Down Main to the Didcot Avoider I get checked 50% of the time. I believe it was for this reason that the Cross Country service, nonstop from Reading to Oxford, was rearranged to run nonstop on the Reliefs from Reading to Didcot to avoid such conflicts.

Sir Humphrey would have said it was "courageous scheduling".

 

[Horizon22]

They are not stopping on the Mains, but crossing at speed to the Reliefs on the high speed crossovers at Dolphin Junction, west of Langley.

However, that in itself seems a risk; these crossovers have been used periodically before, but not for a half-hourly service both ways all day. And of course you only make the move at high speed if you are running on clear signals, for which you need three of the four tracks clear to do. Every 15 minutes. All day. They are not even scheduled to cross both ways in parallel moves.

My experience at Didcot East junction, less traffic than here, is that on an Oxford express service crossing from the Down Main to the Didcot Avoider I get checked 50% of the time. I believe it was for this reason that the Cross Country service, nonstop from Reading to Oxford, was rearranged to run nonstop on the Reliefs from Reading to Didcot to avoid such conflicts.

Sir Humphrey would have said it was "courageous scheduling".

The service pattern of the Elizabeth line and freight will necessitate this.

If it didn’t cross here it would run essentially non stop to Reading, and Maidenhead and Twyford would get an inferior service provision.

This is an outer suburban service; tricky as it’s too many stops to run fully on a 125mph main line but too few stops to be an effective use of Relief line capacity.

Performance will have to be kept an eye on although peak services have done this for several years (or at Maidenhead).

 

[JonathanH]

And of course you only make the move at high speed if you are running on clear signals, for which you need three of the four tracks clear to do. Every 15 minutes. All day. They are not even scheduled to cross both ways in parallel moves

40mph at Dolphin Junction I think.

I think the initial Turbo timetables for Oxford services had hourly moves at Slough West, after a call at Slough. The reliability of the various junctions will no doubt have been assessed as part of the plan.

 

[Taunton]

The service pattern of the Elizabeth line and freight will necessitate this.

If it didn’t cross here it would run essentially non stop to Reading, and Maidenhead and Twyford would get an inferior service provision.

This is an outer suburban service; tricky as it’s too many stops to run fully on a 125mph main line but too few stops to be an effective use of Relief line capacity.

Performance will have to be kept an eye on although peak services have done this for several years (or at Maidenhead).

Indeed. We can only hope that the grandchildren of the wizened controllers on the GE Main of 60 years ago, recently discussed at length elsewhere on here, are around to advise, as that line in the evening peak had an absolute fusillade of scheduled crossing movements back and forth on its 4-track section to maximise capacity and minimise running times to outer points, running on 2-minute headways, and which broadly worked.

 

[Horizon22]

40mph at Dolphin Junction I think.

I think the initial Turbo timetables for Oxford services had hourly moves at Slough West, after a call at Slough. The reliability of the various junctions will no doubt have been assessed as part of the plan.

This is mildly concerning, as reliability hasn't exactly been top notch.

Something else that might (or likely will) scupper this plan at the moment is the additional freight running towards London because of Nuneham viaduct.

 

[nw1]

A little bit later (1999) Slough ended up with a clockface 10-minutely fast-ish service out of Paddington, at xxx8. Detail again on the Network Rail archive, WTT section PA.

The pattern was xx08 and xx38 Reading or Oxford stoppers (Ealing only); xx18 and xx48 Oxford (and beyond) fasts (non-stop) and xx28 and xx58 Bedwyn or Reading (Ealing, Southall, Hayes). The xx28/xx58 were relief line, though. Not sure if the clockface pattern was by design or accident. It didn't exist in the up direction.

 

[70014IronDuke]

1965: 0800 and 1000 Paddington-Swansea called, and that was it.
1958: 7.55am Pembroke Dock and 7.30pm Birmingham via Oxford.

Surely it was more than that at some stage - I mean, it was the designated station for interchange to London Heathrow before BR(W) changed that to Reading. Not sure when that was - c 1971?

Hmmm. Maybe BR(W) thought it was only people to and from London who wanted to go to LRH?

 

[davetheguard]

Surely it was more than that at some stage - I mean, it was the designated station for interchange to London Heathrow before BR(W) changed that to Reading. Not sure when that was - c 1971?

Hmmm. Maybe BR(W) thought it was only people to and from London who wanted to go to LRH?

I'm sure I read somewhere that the first W.R. coach link to Heathrow was from High Wycombe connecting out of the Birmingham to Paddington trains that ran that way at the time. (i.e. before the coach link was moved to operate from Reading)

But I don't think the Slough stops being discussed here were ever planned with access to/from Heathrow in mind were they?

 

[30907]

Surely it was more than that at some stage - I mean, it was the designated station for interchange to London Heathrow before BR(W) changed that to Reading. Not sure when that was - c 1971?

Don't have easy access to a late 60s timetable, but HW had a decent Birmingham service from the early 60s to the completion of WC electrification in 1967.

Hmmm. Maybe BR(W) thought it was only people to and from London who wanted to go to LRH?

Or Thames Valley residents, who might well have chosen their outer-suburban retreat with Heathrow in mind?

But I don't think the Slough stops being discussed here were ever planned with access to/from Heathrow in mind were they?

Certainly not the pre-67 ones I referred to.