XC desperately needs more rolling stock

[Starmill]

Maybe introduce a minimum fare (say £15 for a single) on XC services to discourage people from using them for short distance travel.

So how would you suggest people travel between Wilnecote and Birmingham then? Or Willington and Nottingham? Melton Mowbray to Leicester?

 

[43096]

Well, the likes of the class 220, 221 and 222 have computer engine management that help to make sure that they are more fuel efficient than say an HST that yes was re - engined back in the late 1990's to 2000, but even with that re - engine I believe that there still was not any computer management added?

The MTU engine in the HST power cars is basically of the same generation as the QSK19 under the 22x fleets. The MTU 4000 does have an electronic engine management system - no idea where you have the idea that it doesn't - that's what the MDEC is.

The data you have picked up is comparing with a generic DMU; a 22x is not a bog standard DMU. A fair comparison would probably be an 8-car 220 versus a 2+7 HST.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Maybe introduce a minimum fare (say £15 for a single) on XC services to discourage people from using them for short distance travel.

Maybe on some services but it's rather a nonsensical suggestion when taking into account lines such as the Gloucester-Newport where they also cover the local services in the morning and late evenings, whilst also providing additional services to the busier stops such as Chepstow and Lydney throughout the day

 

[172007]

So how would you suggest people travel between Wilnecote and Birmingham then? Or Willington and Nottingham? Melton Mowbray to Leicester?

Midland Rail hub at Moor Street must address this with commuter trains on the Birmingham legs.

For the Melton and Willington the price would stay the same. Minimum fares on XC I guess most people think about is getting one hop journeys off the Coventry to Wolverhampton Corridor. So many people don't get their booked train from New Street due to overcrowding by people going to a leasure event at the NEC and are only traveling BHM to BHI or

XC rolling stock may have lengh limitations due to the BMO / Midland Rail hub platform lengths if they are not extended. It may be a limiting factor to future or even current rolling stock. Chiltern can only get a 6 coach plus DVT plus 68 lengh in platforms 3&4.

 

[Starmill]

Midland Rail hub at Moor Street must address this with commuter trains on the Birmingham legs.

For the Melton and Willington the price would stay the same. Minimum fares on XC I guess most people think about is getting one hop journeys off the Coventry to Wolverhampton Corridor. So many people don't get their booked train from New Street due to overcrowding by people going to a leasure event at the NEC and are only traveling BHM to BHI or

XC rolling stock may have lengh limitations due to the BMO / Midland Rail hub platform lengths if they are not extended. It may be a limiting factor to future or even current rolling stock. Chiltern can only get a 6 coach plus DVT plus 68 lengh in platforms 3&4.

Reality is that none of this is going to happen, and indeed we're going backwards. For example in May 2018, Northern schedules were available to go up to 2tph between Macclesfield and Manchester Piccadilly, all day, six days a week, which would partially have relived CrossCountry services. These never ran and plans for them have now been long-abandoned. The Ordsall Chord-related enhancements obviously aren't feasible today, but the Macclesfield and Northwich ones would be, if there were money to hire the crews to run them and pay for the lease on the necessary rolling stock. You can't just say to the local passengers we're going to cancel your extra services and also stop you from using the only fast services you have.

 

[class 9]

The MTU engine in the HST power cars is basically of the same generation as the QSK19 under the 22x fleets. The MTU 4000 does have an electronic engine management system - no idea where you have the idea that it doesn't - that's what the MDEC is.

The data you have picked up is comparing with a generic DMU; a 22x is not a bog standard DMU. A fair comparison would probably be an 8-car 220 versus a 2+7 HST.

Yes, if you peer through the window of the former luggage compartment of a power car, on the back wall there's a large box, that'd the EMDEC.

 

[43096]

Yes, if you peer through the window of the former luggage compartment of a power car, on the back wall there's a large box, that'd the EMDEC.

It’s on the front wall of the van, which separates the van from the cooler group. And it is MDEC, no preceding ‘E’ - derived from MTU Diesel Engine Control.

 

[RobShipway]

The MTU engine in the HST power cars is basically of the same generation as the QSK19 under the 22x fleets. The MTU 4000 does have an electronic engine management system - no idea where you have the idea that it doesn't - that's what the MDEC is.

The data you have picked up is comparing with a generic DMU; a 22x is not a bog standard DMU. A fair comparison would probably be an 8-car 220 versus a 2+7 HST.

It’s on the front wall of the van, which separates the van from the cooler group. And it is MDEC, no preceding ‘E’ - derived from MTU Diesel Engine Control.

Fair comment. But I will still like to see fuel consumption say between a GWR Castle HST set going from Penzance to Cardiff in comparison to a class 80x doing the same journey?

 

[urpert]

The only way to snap XC into a profitable operator that is fit for purpose is to have longer trains but, and this is the but. Somehow long distance travellers are separated from commuters / one stoppers. Maybe a mixture of carriages with 2/3 doors and end doors ideally. Totally impractical I know.

XC and its rolling stock is like the old Woolworths conundrum. Was Woolworths a high street discount store or a serous full price quality store. Is XC a commuter / shopping short hop operator or a long distance major city to major city operator.


New Street ideally would have dedicated operator specific platforms where XC, Avanti, WMR only tickets could be enforced thereby reducing overcrowding on long distance servicea by locals going to the next station.

Loading gauge aside, something like SNCF’s Regio 2N which has a mixture of (single and double deck) coaches of different lengths, with two sets of double doors on the short single deck coaches:

Regio 2N - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yes, but it is really naive to imagine that it can just happen because the stock is available.

It is apparent that what you consider short sighted is a significant project, not something that can just happen, and the money needs to be made available to pay for it.

You’re answer is appreciated but as a mere punter I simply cannot accept that as an answer, even if that is the bare bones of the situation, because it is utterly infuriating.

If that is the case it would seem that nothing can happen or change, no matter how obvious or welcome the outcome, because in order to make that change you’d actually have to do something in order to reach the outcome. If this is the case it shows that the railway is neither a public good or a private enterprise, but a mere inconvenience that just needs to be managed and not get in the way.

It seems like a microcosm for the entire British state/civil service which seems to have given itself in recent years a sole purpose to make sure it doesn’t give itself any further purpose

 

[class 9]

It’s on the front wall of the van, which separates the van from the cooler group. And it is MDEC, no preceding ‘E’ - derived from MTU Diesel Engine Control.

Pedant alert!!! Back or front wall who cares! When I was station staff many years ago & we were loading luggage into there, it was the back of the van.
Mdec/emdec, yes you are correct, got it mixed up with the 66, more or less the same thing though, EM - Electro Motive

 

[PacerTrain142]

Yes, but it is really naive to imagine that it can just happen because the stock is available.

It is apparent that what you consider short sighted is a significant project, not something that can just happen, and the money needs to be made available to pay for it.

They can afford to electrify hundreds of miles of track, so why can’t they afford this?

So how would you suggest people travel between Wilnecote and Birmingham then? Or Willington and Nottingham? Melton Mowbray to Leicester?

I don’t know as I don’t know those routes, but surely there must be a local stopping service. Would it really be that hard to just plonk a 150 or a 319 on those routes?

 

[43096]

Fair comment. But I will still like to see fuel consumption say between a GWR Castle HST set going from Penzance to Cardiff in comparison to a class 80x doing the same journey?

This is an XC thread, so why are you moving the goalposts.

 

[urpert]

They can afford to electrify hundreds of miles of track, so why can’t they afford this?

I don’t know as I don’t know those routes, but surely there must be a local stopping service. Would it really be that hard to just plonk a 150 or a 319 on those routes?

XC are the only operator (apart from a token EMR once a day) between Peterborough and Leicester. It effectively is the local service for Stamford, Oakham and Melton.

(Source: it’s my local line)

 

[GingerSte]

As a semi-regular user on a weekend (Thur/Fri Birmingham to Leeds and then Sun Leeds back to Brum), the real problems seem to be when a single four-car set turns up. If it's a double, then everyone's usually seated (if they want to be) with room to spare.

This makes me wonder. Could a coach be taken out of 2 four-car sets, and put into the third four-car set to make a six-car set, and the remaining three-car sets doubled up? Obviously the double three-car set would have less capacity than a single six-car, but it would still be better than a single four-car set, and wouldn't put a bunch of end coaches out of use.

I don't know if it would be technically do-able, though.

 

[YorksLad12]

As a semi-regular user on a weekend (Thur/Fri Birmingham to Leeds and then Sun Leeds back to Brum), the real problems seem to be when a single four-car set turns up. If it's a double, then everyone's usually seated (if they want to be) with room to spare.

This makes me wonder. Could a coach be taken out of 2 four-car sets, and put into the third four-car set to make a six-car set, and the remaining three-car sets doubled up? Obviously the double three-car set would have less capacity than a single six-car, but it would still be better than a single four-car set, and wouldn't put a bunch of end coaches out of use.

I don't know if it would be technically do-able, though.

I said much the same in another thread. REally, they need the Avanti sets but that's out of their hands. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...more-stock-be-on-the-way.251923/#post-6326744

 

[GingerSte]

I said much the same in another thread. REally, they need the Avanti sets but that's out of their hands. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...more-stock-be-on-the-way.251923/#post-6326744

Apologies, Yorkslad. I didn't see that post.

PS in general I agree that we need XC to have more stock, whether that be the Avanti sets, the EMT Meridians or something else. I'm just assuming for the moment (and the purposes of my response above) that they won't get it.

 

[southern442]

It is down to cost, the amount that it would cost to rebuild an HST set to the same disability standards as say Class 8xx, you might as well by buying the class 8xx unit. You also have to think about the structure of the MK 3 carriages, they are over 40 years old and would require them to be totally rebuilt from scratch to be in the same condition as say a Mk5A coach when it comes to disability standards. It would probably cost more to rebuild the Mk3 carriage, than to be building the MK5a carriage from scratch.

Don't give anyone any ideas!!!!!

 

[Energy]

They can afford to electrify hundreds of miles of track, so why can’t they afford this?

That isn't how budgets work.

A fair comparison would probably be an 8-car 220 versus a 2+7 HST.

It's a fairly pointless comparison, both do 125mph but the HSTs long gearing means they take a long time to get to their top speed but it is very high.

It is down to cost, the amount that it would cost to rebuild an HST set to the same disability standards as say Class 8xx, you might as well by buying the class 8xx unit

The XC HSTs have power doors and toilet retention tanks fitted. They are not fully PRM compliant with issues varying from the ramp too steep (difficult to fix) to the wrong height of the toilet seat.

The 80Xs aren't a gold standard in disability either with their rather high floors.

So many trains being withdrawn these days due to new disability legislation. Why not modify them to comply rather than scrap them like TFW have done with thier 153’s?

So far the ones scrapped due to disability regs weren't in best shape anyway, the vast majority of the population prefer the pacers in coke can form rather than on the rails.

There has been no new intercity stock authorised since the 805, 807, 810 orders, about 4 years ago. Even LNER tried to get replacements for its remaining class 91 plus mk 4s, the tender for those died.

The transfers that have happened recently (or still being completed, eg 707s) were all agreed about 4 years ago. There has been no recent indications if stock coming off lease will be reused.

In blunt terms, no capital spending on rolling stock, or transfers between Operators have happened during Covid until that officially ended February 2022 or subsequently since RMT have been taking action. Before anyone points out were actually a few weeks between covid and RMT calling a ballot, authorisations tend to be months not weeks.

Yes, covid happened then the Truss financial issues. There are tenders out for stock now, it isn't suprising that new stock stopped being ordered when the country was stuck indoors.

Any future disability regulations, the HST fleets are most likely not able to pass so would have to be withdrawn. You also have the fact that the fuel usage of the HST's are greater than the likes of the class 220, 221 and 222 fleets.

They don't meet PRM now, they just got a dispensation. Most accept the HSTs are old, they just don't want withdrawl without replacement.

Midland Rail hub at Moor Street must address this with commuter trains on the Birmingham legs.

We don't need more more commuter trains, more regional express instead. Take Coventry to Birmingham, XC gets some of the traffic as it is 10 mins quicker than the LNWR services which are all stoppers.

 

[irish_rail]

Fair comment. But I will still like to see fuel consumption say between a GWR Castle HST set going from Penzance to Cardiff in comparison to a class 80x doing the same journey?

Well the HST will be up to linespeed very quickly, and so driver can then shut off or reduce power. On the 80x the engines spend alot more time at "full" power due to the slower acceleration above 40mph. I'm certainly not convinced over the full Cardiff to PZ route that an IET would come out on top.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It seems like a microcosm for the entire British state/civil service which seems to have given itself in recent years a sole purpose to make sure it doesn’t give itself any further purpose

Well, exactly.

Use your vote wisely, folks.

 

[class 9]

As a semi-regular user on a weekend (Thur/Fri Birmingham to Leeds and then Sun Leeds back to Brum), the real problems seem to be when a single four-car set turns up. If it's a double, then everyone's usually seated (if they want to be) with room to spare.

This makes me wonder. Could a coach be taken out of 2 four-car sets, and put into the third four-car set to make a six-car set, and the remaining three-car sets doubled up? Obviously the double three-car set would have less capacity than a single six-car, but it would still be better than a single four-car set, and wouldn't put a bunch of end coaches out of use.

I don't know if it would be technically do-able, though.

I don't think a 3 car voyager would be possible, as the end vehicles don't have air compressors, so there'd only be one.

 

[Starmill]

I don’t know as I don’t know those routes, but surely there must be a local stopping service. Would it really be that hard to just plonk a 150 or a 319 on those routes?

No there is no alternative. Yes it would be a major undertaking to run additional trains, costing many billions of pounds building new platforms at major stations and undertaking grade separation work or building more tracks.

 

[YorksLad12]

Apologies, Yorkslad. I didn't see that post.

PS in general I agree that we need XC to have more stock, whether that be the Avanti sets, the EMT Meridians or something else. I'm just assuming for the moment (and the purposes of my response above) that they won't get it.

TBF I wouldn't have remembered or seen it if I hadn't written it! I'm not looking forward to the Wakefield College students going back next week, if we have a 4-car. Last time that happened during a midweek term date, Coach F was full at Leeds - I was the first one on, standing in the middle, people standing either side of me and through the vestibules. Through the windows I could see another dozen or so were trying to board.

I did email XC to ask why we couldn't have a five-car unit but of course they never answered. Over the summer we've had 4, 5, 8 and 9, inconsistently. I think they've inherited Northern's Random Unit Generator...

 

[PacerTrain142]

And of course, a full and standing train means no checking tickets and no selling drinks and snacks, resulting in lost revenue for XC from not selling drinks and snacks or issuing penalty fares to fare dodgers.

 

[RobShipway]

Well the HST will be up to linespeed very quickly, and so driver can then shut off or reduce power. On the 80x the engines spend alot more time at "full" power due to the slower acceleration above 40mph. I'm certainly not convinced over the full Cardiff to PZ route that an IET would come out on top.

Have you seen a video of an IET and HST leaving the same station. I think that you will find that the IET is actually quicker to acceleration speed than an HST. A good example of this is the video

uploaded 5 years ago. It shows 8-car HST leaving the same station as 10-car IET. It maybe as you say that the IET trains spend more time at full power with their engines, but with that the IET would in fact be up to linespeed quicker than the HST's.

Yes, the HST is the more comfortable train, but the IET sets are quicker to accelerate.

TBF I wouldn't have remembered or seen it if I hadn't written it! I'm not looking forward to the Wakefield College students going back next week, if we have a 4-car. Last time that happened during a midweek term date, Coach F was full at Leeds - I was the first one on, standing in the middle, people standing either side of me and through the vestibules. Through the windows I could see another dozen or so were trying to board.

I did email XC to ask why we couldn't have a five-car unit but of course they never answered. Over the summer we've had 4, 5, 8 and 9, inconsistently. I think they've inherited Northern's Random Unit Generator...

XC certainly does need more stock and needs to hand over more 'local' routes to the operators such as Nottingham to Birmingham New Street to WMT and Stansted Airport to Cambridge to Greater Anglia.

The most ideal situation would be the majority Avanti class 221's going to XC, with a few to Grand Central.

 

[daodao]

XC .... needs to hand over more 'local' routes

The routes that XC could dispense with or reduce frequencies are those that can be operated by other operators using electric traction, which XC do not possess, in particular Manchester-Birmingham. Services north of York could be reduced to no more than hourly, with Newcastle served hourly and Edinburgh served 2 hourly. Bournemouth services could also be reduced to 2 hourly, with alternate trains terminating at Southampton. This would free up existing diesel trains for operating over the core non-electrified part of the current XC network. XC are clearly not going to be able to acquire additional trains, and are also about to withdraw from service their ancient, decrepit and clapped out HSTs.

 

[RobShipway]

The routes that XC could dispense with or reduce frequencies are those that can be operated by other operators using electric traction, which XC do not possess, in particular Manchester-Birmingham. Services north of York could be reduced to no more than hourly, with Newcastle served hourly and Edinburgh served 2 hourly. Bournemouth services could also be reduced to 2 hourly, with alternate trains terminating at Southampton. This would free up existing diesel trains for operating over the core non-electrified part of the current XC network. XC are clearly not going to be able to acquire additional trains, and are also about to withdraw from service their ancient, decrepit and clapped out HSTs.

How does a disabled person in a wheelchair needing to travel from Bournemouth to Manchester get there? There should be at least 1 train in either direction the full route every 2 hours Monday - Saturday, with that being every 3 hours on a Sunday. I would have the trains all terminating at Bournemouth to be honest, as there is sidings within the station area that the trains can pull into to do the turnaround to rest before heading back north. For Southampton, the sidings are further away if my memory serves me correct, unless you have the train go into the platform at Southampton Central from which it is going to leave. But then you are blocking the paths of other trains either terminating at Southampton or going on to Bournemouth during the rest period.

But yes, some of the XC services that go between Birmingham International and Manchester should be replaced by Electric Traction powered trains whether EMU's or loco hauled. The way that I would work it is that once every 2 hours you would have trains both Penzance/Plymouth/Bristol Temple Meads to Glasgow/Edingburgh and Bournemouth to Manchester going through Birmingham New Street to their destinations. The next hour you would have say two class 379 units coupled together starting a service from Birmingham International if paths available to Manchester Piccadilly, run by West Midland Trains.

However, I believe in some periods of the day from the likes of Penzance/Plymouth/Bristol Temple Meads/Bournemouth there should be either 9 carriage or 10 carriage trains due to the public demand at those times. I would also make sure that the XC trains going through Birmingham New Street are either 9 or 10 carriage trains, hence why you would need the Avanti class 221 units with XC.

 

[irish_rail]

Have you seen a video of an IET and HST leaving the same station. I think that you will find that the IET is actually quicker to acceleration speed than an HST. A good example of this is the video

uploaded 5 years ago. It shows 8-car HST leaving the same station as 10-car IET. It maybe as you say that the IET trains spend more time at full power with their engines, but with that the IET would in fact be up to linespeed quicker than the HST's.

Yes, the HST is the more comfortable train, but the IET sets are quicker to accelerate.


XC certainly does need more stock and needs to hand over more 'local' routes to the operators such as Nottingham to Birmingham New Street to WMT and Stansted Airport to Cambridge to Greater Anglia.

The most ideal situation would be the majority Avanti class 221's going to XC, with a few to Grand Central.

I was referring to 2+4 HST sets which are far far quicker to linepseed than IET on diesel. 2+8 isn't relevant anymore (sadly).

 

[The exile]

How does a disabled person in a wheelchair needing to travel from Bournemouth to Manchester get there?

The same way as if they were travelling from Bristol to Liverpool or Swindon to Manchester.