XC trains behing heavily used by Wolverhampton to Birmingham commuters: how could this be resolved?

[Doctor Fegg]

It also has the problem that numerous regional lines are served only by intercity trains.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It also has the problem that numerous regional lines are served only by intercity trains.

Agreed. Although you could solve that problem in principle by only designating trains 'intercity' over the sections of route where there are more local alternative trains. But like I say, would be difficult to do with the railway set up as it is today.

 

[ChrisC]

The simple solution for those Wolverhampton passengers is to change at Birmingham New Street or even Stafford. As your stats clearly state the most popular flow from Wolverhampton is to Birmingham New Street. Better move those passengers away from 4/5 coach voyagers to alternative trains which terminate at Birmingham

No different to passengers for Basingstoke being forced to make an extra change so instead of boarding a voyager which isn't normally that heavily loaded (outside times when SWR have given up the ghost) at Basingstoke they will join the large crowds boarding at Reading.

A similar situation to the discussion in this thread concerning Wolverhampton, and the recent thread about Winchester and Basingstoke, is XC also missing out calls at Chesterfield.

Again the problem being large numbers of people using the trains for the short journey to Sheffield. Almost all of the XC calls at Chesterfield were cut during Covid and even now only a stop every 2 hours has been restored. I hear that some of these remaining Chesterfield stops are to be cut during the summer.

Chesterfield station has a very wide catchment area covering a huge area of North Derbyshire and parts of Nottinghamshire. It is also popular with people in the South of Sheffield who find it more convenient, especially with its large car park, than using Sheffield. Just as important is that it provides an easy same platform connection for Nottingham passengers and that‘s where Nottingham passengers were always recommended to change trains. Now passengers from Nottingham have to change at a very busy, and less convenient Sheffield, adding even more people to the crowds queueing at the doors of the XC Voyagers. I suppose this is another consequence of XC not having enough stock to run longer trains. Even more frustrating that these trains now have an extended wait at Derby as a result of missing the Chesterfield stop.

 

[Krokodil]

Would making Wolverhampton pick up / set down only make much difference?

Enforcing it would be easier said than done, admittedly.

The main issue with that is that it also stops passengers going between Wolves and destinations south of Birmingham.

Making services compulsory reservation and not issuing reservations for journeys within this stretch could be doable, but it's not the only overcrowded stretch so unless you add a load of extra capacity you're going to turn away long distance passengers too. Four car Voyagers were never adequate for large swathes of the X, not just Brum-Wolves.

Hopefully a future government will complete HS2 in full. The fast trains will use the new line and LNW would run an 8 car 350 between Birmingham and Manchester via Wolves, using the old paths with a few extra stops.

 

[JW4]

The simple solution for those Wolverhampton passengers is to change at Birmingham New Street or even Stafford. As your stats clearly state the most popular flow from Wolverhampton is to Birmingham New Street. Better move those passengers away from 4/5 coach voyagers to alternative trains which terminate at Birmingham.

The busiest passenger flow in the country outside of London (2948 per day BHM —> COV) would under your proposal to skip Coventry lose one of its trains per hour, the xx03 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth calling at Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International and Coventry.

Would be unfortunate if you had no direct trains between Coventry and Manchester. (Yes I know they’ll be heading to/from London here but it demonstrates the possibility of events necessitating travel between those two)
Skipping Coventry and/or Wolverhampton on CrossCountry services would mean more passengers on the one train per hour Avanti trains at Wolverhampton and two trains per hour at Coventry.
Wolverhampton Wanderers played Coventry in the FA Cup Quarter-Final which required travel between Wolverhampton and Coventry.
1tph direct from Avanti is what removing the CrossCountry’s would leave them with to travel between each other.
Wolverhampton and Manchester United both play each other at least twice per season, good luck telling them they have to change at Stafford and/or Birmingham New Street while also removing 2tph between Wolverhampton and Birmingham as well as Wolverhampton and Stafford.

Coventry City vs Manchester United - Sunday 21 April

www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk

Coventry City vs Manchester United - Sunday 21 April​

As Coventry City fans head to Wembley on Sunday 21 April for the FA Cup semi-final, West Midlands Trains, Avanti West Coast and Chiltern Railways have worked together to provide additional capacity for supporters travelling to and from the match.

West Midlands Trains and Avanti West Coast services run from Coventry, Nuneaton and Rugby to London Euston. Euston station is approximately 40 minutes from Wembley via the London Underground from Euston SquareTube station (Metropolitan Line). Chiltern Railways run from Warwick Parkway and Leamington Spa to Wembley Stadium and London Marylebone.

Queuing systems will be in place at Coventry, Warwick Parkway and Leamington Spa on the morning of the game, and again in the evening at London Euston and Wembley Stadium. Fans should note that Manchester United and Liverpool supporters will also be travelling back via London Euston, with designated platforms for each set of returning fans, and that the London Marathon is also taking place on the same day.

With early morning departures likely to be extremely busy, fans are advised to travel throughout the morning on the numerous services that will arrive into London in time for kick off. For the return journey, fans are advised to travel before the last departure from London Euston.

 

[Wolfie]

The busiest passenger flow in the country outside of London (2948 per day BHM —> COV) would under your proposal to skip Coventry lose one of its trains per hour, the xx03 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth calling at Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International and Coventry.

Would be unfortunate if you had no direct trains between Coventry and Manchester. (Yes I know they’ll be heading to/from London here but it demonstrates the possibility of events necessitating travel between those two)
Skipping Coventry and/or Wolverhampton on CrossCountry services would mean more passengers on the one train per hour Avanti trains at Wolverhampton and two trains per hour at Coventry.
Wolverhampton Wanderers played Coventry in the FA Cup Quarter-Final which required travel between Wolverhampton and Coventry.
1tph direct from Avanti is what removing the CrossCountry’s would leave them with to travel between each other.
Wolverhampton and Manchester United both play each other at least twice per season, good luck telling them they have to change at Stafford and/or Birmingham New Street while also removing 2tph between Wolverhampton and Birmingham as well as Wolverhampton and Stafford.

Not to mention Man City too....

 

[Kite159]

The busiest passenger flow in the country outside of London (2948 per day BHM —> COV) would under your proposal to skip Coventry lose one of its trains per hour, the xx03 Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth calling at Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International and Coventry.

Better to force those Coventry users heading to Birmingham to use either the 2tph service run with 8 coach 350s or the 3tph Avanti services (which 2 terminate at Birmingham) rather than forcing themselves onto a 4 or 5 coach voyager before emptying out at Birmingham New Street.

Any genuine passengers from Coventry wanting stations beyond Birmingham served by XC can simply catch one of the other 5 trains an hour and change at Birmingham International or catch the hourly WMR service to Leamington to connect with the XC

 

[JW4]

the 3tph Avanti services (which 2 terminate at Birmingham) rather than forcing themselves onto a 4 or 5 coach voyager before emptying out at Birmingham New Street.

Avanti 3tph Birmingham to Euston via Coventry weekdays in June 2024:
05:30, 05:50 (both ex-Wolves)
06:06, 06:28, 06:47 (all ex-Wolves)
07:17 (ex-Wolves), 07:21, 07:47 (ex-Man Picc)
08:17 (ex-Man Picc), 08:21, 08:47
10:17 (ex-Glasgow), 10:21, 10:47
15:17 (ex-Edinburgh), 15:21, 15:47
16:17 (ex-Glasgow), 16:21, 16:47
17:17, 17:21 (ex-Edinburgh), 17:47
18:17 (ex-Blackpool), 18:21, 18:47

 

[Haywain]

Wolverhampton and Manchester United both play each other at least twice per season, good luck telling them they have to change at Stafford and/or Birmingham New Street

This is just a ridiculous argument - there are plenty of football fixtures every single week where supporters have to change trains on the way. Luton to Nottingham, for example, on a direct line but necessitating two changes.

 

[The Planner]

Better to force those Coventry users heading to Birmingham to use either the 2tph service run with 8 coach 350s or the 3tph Avanti services (which 2 terminate at Birmingham) rather than forcing themselves onto a 4 or 5 coach voyager before emptying out at Birmingham New Street.

Any genuine passengers from Coventry wanting stations beyond Birmingham served by XC can simply catch one of the other 5 trains an hour and change at Birmingham International or catch the hourly WMR service to Leamington to connect with the XC

People naturally gravitate to the fastest trains, so the WMT are out as they are all shacks to International. People are going to for example bin the 0812 to New St when the 0827 or 0830 gets there shortly after it.

 

[JW4]

This is just a ridiculous argument - there are plenty of football fixtures every single week where supporters have to change trains on the way. Luton to Nottingham, for example, on a direct line but necessitating two changes.

My argument was that it's difficult to take that away once they've had it for years. It's political suicide, it'd be seen as another betrayal of the North and Midlands, levelling down rather than levelling up, and you're gonna have a lot to trouble trying to get passengers to agree without argument to change their travel habits, especially on event days, to suit XC passengers travelling from South of Coventry to North of Wolverhampton.

Not to mention Man City too....

Of course

 

[Pat31]

I think the issue here is not the passenger flows but the simple lack of capacity on XC trains. They are woefully inadequate for what they are used for. You have similar issues out of Paddington on the fast intercity services but this is rarely an issue because the trains are usually twice as long as the XC ones.

 

[Mgameing123]

Moderator note: Split from

CrossCountry compulsory reservations: forcing passengers into 1st class

CrossCountry seem to have started doing compulsory reservations on some services, but only between Birmingham New Street and Wolverhampton. This appears to be part of an attempt to prevent walk-ups from Birmingham to Wolverhampton from being issued on these services if there are no seats...

www.railforums.co.uk

I would disagree with declassifying First Class for that section. The easiest solution to deal with overcrowding is to skip the Wolverhampton call all together. Force the commuters to use alternative trains which start at New Street and are longer than a 4/5 coach voyager.

How about solve the real issue? 4-5 car trains on the only services which connects major cities without having to go through London?

 

[MarkyT]

Cutting out Coventry on XC is absurd. It would add around 40 minutes to the journey to anywhere south of Leamington Spa and cut the frequency to Leamington in half to only the local service once an hour. And the train would still crawl tantalisingly through Coventry station to negotiate the curve saving no time at all. XC and possibly WMT would probably lose income from this and some travellers faced this severe degradation may choose to drive instead; result for the motor industry! There's got to be a better way to limit crowding between Birmingham and these well established 'Outer Midlands' peripheral stops which are important intercity hubs in their own right and are often easier to access by car than central Birmingham for those living in the broader West Midlands.

 

[peteb]

It's more difficult in the morning peak from Wolverhampton to Euston as trains are picking up long distance passengers. Maybe skip the New Street stop for alternate Wolverhampton starters and run non-stop to International via Tame Bridge and Stechford?

Also not really commuter related, but I really dislike using the late night Avanti services from Euston to Wolverhampton as they become quite unpleasant after Coventry. They're very conveniently timed to get people between the cities after local services have stopped running, but are often frequented by drunks and beggars. So to simply set down only would inconvenience many people. Perhaps they need better BTP presence on these trains?

 

[geoffk]

A TfWM tram holds 210 people. So 1050 people an hour. But as I repeatedly say, for people to want to add 25-30 minutes to their journey even £2 wouldnt sway enough people.

Surely the last thing you want on the trams is loads of through B'ham to Wolves passengers, with over 20 intermediate stops to cater for.