Carrying an empty petrol can

[Sheepy1209]

This might seem like a daft question but..... am I allowed to carry an empty 5 litre petrol can on a train? (Before anyone asks, not a 20L 'Jerrycan' )

Simple reason is I'm delivering a 125cc motorbike from Blackpool to Leicestershire, and it doesn't hold enough fuel to do the full trip - so I thought that IF it looks like it'll be difficult to get petrol on the way down I would carry a can with me. The can will therefore be empty but will have been used.

I've looked at the NRCOC and they say 'Dangerous Goods - Inflammable Liquids, Explosives' can't be carried - but an empty can with residual fumes doesn't clearly fit into that category.

I'm guessing that it's up to the discretion of the train crew so the answer is best not to risk it, but I'd be interested to know people's views.

If it makes any difference, the route is Nuneaton - Crewe - Preston - Blackpool, so VT or LM, with Northern or TPE for the last leg.

Apologies if this in the wrong sub-forum.

Ta

 

[jopsuk]

resigdual fumes can, if anything, be rather dangerous- depending upon how residual. Good fuel/air mix there you see. And any odour coming from it will cause alarm.

 

[34D]

I would get a supermarket bag for life, and put the empty fuel can inside there.

If you can use a brand new container (with no petrol residue) then it could save hassle.

I've taken lead acid batteries on trains with no issues.

 

[GB]

I would get a supermarket bag for life, and put the empty fuel can inside there.

I'd go with that as well as putting it in a normal plastic bag as well before putting it in the supermarket bag for life.

 

[Sheepy1209]

Ta - I'm hoping my question is purely hypothetical, and obviously I'm not exhibiting signs of panic!!

Personally - if I were a guard and smelt petrol I'd have the thing removed at the next stop - regardless of whether it's empty or not. I suppose making sure it's been vented for a couple of hours after use will go a long way to stop that.

No doubt someone, somewhere, WILL try to take a full jerrycan on the train.

 

[ess]

i know of someone who really thought it would be acceptable to take a 125cc scooter on a train

 

[PinzaC55]

I had a guy turn up on the platform at London Bridge in the 1990's and want to put his motorbike in the guards van of my EPB. I said "no way" and he replied that the tank was empty and I replied that I didn't give a rat's. I got the usual volley of abuse, rang the bell and left.

 

[Sheepy1209]

It's unlikely I would go through with carrying a can tbh - I might have thought about the risks but it's not fair to expect train staff to know that.

....and I've just seen the first news story about someone getting burnt storing / transferring petrol - don't think it'll be the last.

 

[GB]

Is there anyway you can flush it out before you hypothetically take it on board?

 

[thelem]

Empty cans are actually more likely to explode than full cans

 

[DXMachina]

I have witnessed rail staff at Watford Jn refusing a group of teenagers who were trying to take a scooter with an empty tank onto a train, on the grounds that they could not allow a container that may hold dangerous fumes (the petrol tank) into a carriage full of passengers

Predictably it turned into a massive argument and they were dragged off after trying to force their way onboard....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

i know of someone who really thought it would be acceptable to take a 125cc scooter on a train

Wonder if thats the same thing I saw...

 

[moonrakerz]

resigdual fumes can, if anything, be rather dangerous- depending upon how residual. Good fuel/air mix there you see. And any odour coming from it will cause alarm.

The fumes are far more dangerous than the the liquid...................most people just don't realise how dangerous petrol is.

On this subject I saw a load of petrol cans on the BBC news at lunch time marked "UN approved" - was that a deliberate piece of "confusion" labeling ?

 

[hwl]

The fumes are far more dangerous than the the liquid...................most people just don't realise how dangerous petrol is.

On this subject I saw a load of petrol cans on the BBC news at lunch time marked "UN approved" - was that a deliberate piece of "confusion" labeling ?

Most chemical transport containers are UN certified due to cross border shipment. The UN started doing this in the late 1940s long before the EEC (EC and EU), WTO etc. existed.

From the HSE guidance:
"The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2004 (CDG), as amended by The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment (Amendment) Regulations 2005 require that petrol should be carried in UN approved containers (called Packages), ....
The packages should be marked with the "flammable" diamond and with the UN number for petrol (UN 1203)."

 

[PinzaC55]

It's unlikely I would go through with carrying a can tbh - I might have thought about the risks but it's not fair to expect train staff to know that.

....and I've just seen the first news story about someone getting burnt storing / transferring petrol - don't think it'll be the last.

Yeah that was in York. She was very sensibly transferring petrol from a can to a glass jug (?) near a LIT COOKER! She has got 40% burns.

 

[Deerfold]

Most chemical transport containers are UN certified due to cross border shipment. The UN started doing this in the late 1940s long before the EEC (EC and EU), WTO etc. existed.

From the HSE guidance:
"The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2004 (CDG), as amended by The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment (Amendment) Regulations 2005 require that petrol should be carried in UN approved containers (called Packages), ....
The packages should be marked with the "flammable" diamond and with the UN number for petrol (UN 1203)."

Hmm, can't help thinking "UN Certified" would be better than "UNapproved" on a label...

 

[tsr]

Yeah that was in York. She was very sensibly transferring petrol from a can to a glass jug (?) near a LIT COOKER! She has got 40% burns.

Whilst I do hope she recovers as much as is possible from such injuries, it does indeed sound like she was trying rather hard to win a Darwin Award, and that she is jolly lucky that she was not killed.

The thing is that if the government stopped sales of jerry cans, you can imagine what sort of further idiocy would occur with people using wholly inappropriate containers... rather than partially inappropriate ones. Not to mention the legal aspects of all this.

 

[Deerfold]

Hmm, can't help thinking "UN Certified" would be better than "UNapproved" on a label...

Actually that's really no better is it.

Perhaps "Approved by the UN" would be better.

 

[Holly]

i know of someone who really thought it would be acceptable to take a 125cc scooter on a train

My boyfriend and I used to take his 250cc Jawa/CZ two-stroke motorcycle from Euston to Crewe regularly. Riding up to the station in plenty of time and dumping the dregs of fuel (with the kind help of the railway staff) on the trackbed. We had to buy a separate ticket for the bike. Load it and lash it securely in the (Mk 2) guards van.
Only on the snowiest, coldest, weekends because if the weather was fine we would ride up the M1 and M6. Winter of 1971/1972. Of course that was when we had a British Rail service public not a profit opportunity railway owned by the gnomes. The hardest part was off-loading at Crewe, the train was typically scheduled to stop only for a minute or two and help was never around when you needed it most.

Modernly, I imagine it is the smell test. If the guard can smell petrol there will be a problem, otherwise there will not.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

There are explosion safe cans! (Full of expanded metal mesh)
example http://www.firstbrands.co.uk/rhino-fuel-cans.html
(Check it is acceptable before buying!)
New plastic cans are pretty cheap to buy, maybe purchase a new one for the job.
You could wash one out with washing up liquid, rinse, and leave in the sun to dry.

 

[moonrakerz]

most chemical transport containers are un certified due to cross border shipment. The un started doing this in the late 1940s long before the eec (ec and eu), wto etc. Existed.

From the hse guidance:
"the carriage of dangerous goods and use of transportable pressure equipment regulations 2004 (cdg), as amended by the carriage of dangerous goods and use of transportable pressure equipment (amendment) regulations 2005 require that petrol should be carried in un approved containers (called packages), ....
The packages should be marked with the "flammable" diamond and with the un number for petrol (un 1203)."

hmm, can't help thinking "un certified" would be better than "unapproved" on a label...

actually that's really no better is it.

Perhaps "approved by the un" would be better.

quod erat demonstrandum !

 

[PinzaC55]

tsr said

The thing is that if the government stopped sales of jerry cans, you can imagine what sort of further idiocy would occur

You can't legislate against idiocy. It's a legacy of the fact that our DNA only differs from Chimpanzees by about 1.5%.

 

[paul1609]

My boyfriend and I used to take his 250cc Jawa/CZ two-stroke motorcycle from Euston to Crewe regularly. Riding up to the station in plenty of time and dumping the dregs of fuel (with the kind help of the railway staff) on the trackbed. We had to buy a separate ticket for the bike. Load it and lash it securely in the (Mk 2) guards van.
Only on the snowiest, coldest, weekends because if the weather was fine we would ride up the M1 and M6. Winter of 1971/1972. Of course that was when we had a British Rail service public not a profit opportunity railway owned by the gnomes. The hardest part was off-loading at Crewe, the train was typically scheduled to stop only for a minute or two and help was never around when you needed it most.

Modernly, I imagine it is the smell test. If the guard can smell petrol there will be a problem, otherwise there will not.

Unfortunately it was the Public service British railways that banned the carriage of motor cycles on the grounds of safety before privatisation.

 

[tsr]

tsr said

You can't legislate against idiocy. It's a legacy of the fact that our DNA only differs from Chimpanzees by about 1.5%.

I sort of meant to imply that there probably shouldn't be any new legislation against the existing idiocy - in order that further idiocy is prevented.

 

[Jonny]

Empty cans are actually more likely to explode than full cans

A trick is to fill them with water when empty, it gets rid of the air and can be emptied when needed to put fuel in.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Most chemical transport containers are UN certified due to cross border shipment. The UN started doing this in the late 1940s long before the EEC (EC and EU), WTO etc. existed.

From the HSE guidance:
"The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations 2004 (CDG), as amended by The Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment (Amendment) Regulations 2005 require that petrol should be carried in UN approved containers (called Packages), ....
The packages should be marked with the "flammable" diamond and with the UN number for petrol (UN 1203)."

I think many folks would be wise to read the full H&S instructions for petroleum carriage and storage -

http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petroleum-faqs.htm#filling

To the OP, no, you shouldn't be allowed to travel on a train with a petrol cannister of any description, even an empty one, as there is insufficient ventilation for the fumes, especially in today's trains, even if you sat near the doors on a DMU/EMU. If I was a guard or TM, I could have you arrested and charged for putting the lives of my passengers at risk, especially, in this hot weather, it is in essence a ticking bomb.
Diesel on the other hand, is not, from a health and safety point of view, a particularly hazardous substance within the meaning of the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 - its vapour flash point is too high, this means that its vapour will not ignite at normal room temperatures, however, I would argue that if seated on a train you are still potentially putting people's lives in jeopardy and I wouldn't accept you to travel as you are breaking railway by-laws anyway, not too mention special quality requirements of clothing worn in flammable atmospheres and that it is anti-static, there is no ignition risk from synthetic clothing provided that the wearer is earthed by suitable footwear and does not remove the clothing whilst in the explosive atmosphere, and that goes for your fellow travelling companions and other passengers in close proximity.

It's all on the H&S page.

Incidentally, a jerrycan is illegal in Britain for the storage of petrol/diesel as it holds 20 litres when full, which contravenes current regulations.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Grantham]

I think many folks would be wise to read the full H&S instructions for petroleum carriage and storage -

http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petroleum-faqs.htm#filling

To the OP, no, you shouldn't be allowed to travel on a train with a petrol cannister of any description, even an empty one, as there is insufficient ventilation for the fumes, especially in today's trains, even if you sat near the doors on a DMU/EMU. If I was a guard or TM, I could have you arrested and charged for putting the lives of my passengers at risk, especially, in this hot weather, it is in essence a ticking bomb.
Diesel on the other hand, is not, from a health and safety point of view, a particularly hazardous substance within the meaning of the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 - its vapour flash point is too high, this means that its vapour will not ignite at normal room temperatures, however, I would argue that if seated on a train you are still potentially putting people's lives in jeopardy and I wouldn't accept you to travel as you are breaking railway by-laws anyway, not too mention special quality requirements of clothing worn in flammable atmospheres and that it is anti-static, there is no ignition risk from synthetic clothing provided that the wearer is earthed by suitable footwear and does not remove the clothing whilst in the explosive atmosphere, and that goes for your fellow travelling companions and other passengers in close proximity.

It's all on the H&S page.

Incidentally, a jerrycan is illegal in Britain for the storage of petrol/diesel as it holds 20 litres when full, which contravenes current regulations.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

There you go, splash a drop of diesel in the tin and shake it all about before you wash it out...that way it wasn't an epmty petrol tin. No worries!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hmm, can't help thinking "UN Certified" would be better than "UNapproved" on a label...

That can only be stated if a certification has been actually made.

 

[Grantham]

That can only be stated if a certification has been actually made.

Unless you mark it "Uncertified", not that far a stretch from "UN certified"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Unless you mark it "Uncertified", not that far a stretch from "UN certified"

Somehow or other, I don't think that your idea would pass the "approval" test for the labelling of dangerous substances, which has to be very precise indeed with the actual wording used.

 

[Clip]

I think he was taking the mick