FirstGroup vies with Virgin in west coast rail bidding war

[ANorthernGuard]

There always seems to be A rush to the bottom of the pile. Let's lower the quality of the services to Save money...Yay. Let's make the experience as bog standaard as possible. Let's get rid of shops, trollies, and anything else we can think of. It will be cheaper to run and ticket prices will go down. On a serious note (sarcasm isn't my strongest asset) we used to be so proud of our railways then through neglect through numerous governments and zero Growth. now the railways are booming and we are still trying to cut things down to bare minimums. IMHO yes we need to get rid of atleast one 1st class carriage but what is left give a high quality service and not a trolley with light snacks. It destroys the whole experience and turns trains into nothing but fast buses (and I work on pacers)

 

[northwichcat]

According to the Liverpool Echo:

The new operator – which will take over in December – will be required to introduce “smart ticketing”, allowing the same pass to be used on different public transport services.

And it will enjoy greater freedom to change timetables, adding more stops on busy days of the week, while missing out stations on quieter days.

I knew about the new franchise being able to run a different number of services on different days of the week but to me this is implying something like a particular London-Liverpool service will call at Crewe on Fridays only, which isn't the same.

An industry insider said "No decision has been taken – but we can all speculate about what that means for where we are"

Well, yes.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...-first-group-100252-31591097/2/#ixzz23AiyuxyH

 

[455driver]

So Branson is pledging services to Blackpool and Shrewsbury, is he? I'm sure that'll work. :roll:

Remember when he pledged no fare rises and 140mph services? Hmm...

Are you trying to say that everything that comes out of Bransons mouth may not be true?
Surely that cant be right!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And have you ever seen the cavalcade leave Crewe?

Thinking about it, no I havent!

A trip to Crewe is in order I feel!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As for the race to the bottom, of course it is, the trains are run to make money the "service" bit has long gone in the name of profit.

Our railways are run by accountants now who know the price of everthing but the value of nothing!

 

[northwichcat]

As for the race to the bottom, of course it is, the trains are run to make money the "service" bit has long gone in the name of profit.

Our railways are run by accountants now who know the price of everthing but the value of nothing!

I believe the race to the bottom has already been won by Northern Rail. You can't get worse than a dirty Merseytravel 142 with broken seats, an out-of-order toilet running along the Wigan-Southport line.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I believe the race to the bottom has already been won by Northern Rail. You can't get worse than a dirty Merseytravel 142 with broken seats, an out-of-order toilet running along the Wigan-Southport line.

Yes you can... Try working it lol or a frozen 142 in the middle of January going to Chester and back. Now that's interesting to say the least. But as that was let on a zero growth basis there is no surprise that we still have the worst. Stock in the country.

 

[Wath Yard]

I
one thing that they probably will focus on more heavily is Revenue Protection as a means to raising more revenue, expect to see gating at most of the major stations i reckon!

I think that's a given. Open stations and guards wandering up the train asking to see tickets from x, y and z might work on a service run by a Pacer with 5 or 6 passengers boarding at each station, but it isn't really appropriate for InterCity TOCs. Gates, or more rigorous ticket inspections on the trains will happen. I'd prefer the latter but expect the former.

I knew about the new franchise being able to run a different number of services on different days of the week but to me this is implying something like a particular London-Liverpool service will call at Crewe on Fridays only, which isn't the same.
[/url]

What is specified in the ITT is minimums. If the winning TOC wants to exceed that minimum, every day or just one day of the week, it can. Obviously it will have to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of increased stops against longer journey times, possible overcrowding and whether line capacity will permit them.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes you can... Try working it lol or a frozen 142 in the middle of January going to Chester and back. Now that's interesting to say the least. But as that was let on a zero growth basis there is no surprise that we still have the worst. Stock in the country.

Forgot about that with it being Summer. I did Altrincham-Knutsford on a non-Merseytravel 142 when the exterior temperature was around minus 8 and that was bad enough with the windows frozen over on the inside. Never mind the doing the whole line including the 75mph sections where the Arctic air would have really been blowing through the flimsy doors. Although, I think a Hope Valley stopper might have been worse in those conditions (assuming the line isn't closed due to heavy snow.)

 

[YorkshireRider]

From what I was made aware... Any perm staff for Virgin is safe guarded for TWO years from date of takeover so if First wanted to make cuts to perm sagg they would have to make the staff a superb offer.

This was indeed the case when NX took over GNER, the only cut backs to catering were done by voluntary redundancy, some ex BR staff who had been there over 25 years walked away with 30-40k in their pocket. I dont know if that rule has now been changed or not, the best person to ask would be your union rep. What they were planning after the 2 years we will never know, given Mr Bowker and his fellow morons jumped ship before we got to that stage.

 

[Yourang]

Announcement for breakfast tues. First 100% have won.

Virgin has to weigh up challenging (judicial review) to get a new tender process started on the basis that the firstgroup bid should have been marked as undeliverable, against the fact that Daft arent likely to shortlist them again if they challenge the process. And although virgin may not care about that, stagecoach certainly will.

I see first's share price has been rising steadily. Watch it collapse when the analysts and investors understand how big the overbid is.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Announcement for breakfast tues. First 100% have won.

Virgin has to weigh up challenging (judicial review) to get a new tender process started on the basis that the firstgroup bid should have been marked as undeliverable, against the fact that Daft arent likely to shortlist them again if they challenge the process. And although virgin may not care about that, stagecoach certainly will.

I see first's share price has been rising steadily. Watch it collapse when the analysts and investors understand how big the overbid is.

Yep, buy now, sell in December folks

 

[tbtc]

There always seems to be A rush to the bottom of the pile. Let's lower the quality of the services to Save money...Yay. Let's make the experience as bog standaard as possible. Let's get rid of shops, trollies, and anything else we can think of

There has to be some middle ground between the "race to the bottom" that you suggest and a TOC that employs eight hundred catering staff (with an average employee wage of £30,000 over the whole franchise)?

 

[Masbroughlad]

I think this is bad sad news for many reasons.....

Virgin have made a good job of West Coast overall. I do hope they will be given a chance with East Coast. Will be sad to see such a innovative, customer focussed company no longer running anytrains on the network. XC has been ruined by Arriva - I am sure that West Coast will soon go the same way under first.

Scotrail deteriorated under First. Transpennine Express is an overcrowded, overpriced railway. Similar for Great Western.

I do wonder whether VT will walk away from the rail industry. Sad that we will have nothing but former bus companies running the majority of the network.

And then, much of the West Coast will be dominated by First - I am surprised this will be allowed - West Coast, TPE and Scotrail.

Sad times for the railways to come.

Just hope First don't get GW and EC.

 

[David10]

Just hope First don't get GW and EC.

So who do would you prefer, Arriva, NatEx? Give me First anyday.

 

[Wath Yard]

Virgin has to weigh up challenging (judicial review) to get a new tender process started on the basis that the firstgroup bid should have been marked as undeliverable, against the fact that Daft arent likely to shortlist them again if they challenge the process. And although virgin may not care about that, stagecoach certainly will.

Have Virgin management and Branson been too busy whining to watch any of the Olympics? I know Branson is a driven, winner but is it too much to ask for him to just shrug his shoulders, accept losing and walk away with a scrap of dignity?

 

[WestCoast]

Scotrail deteriorated under First. Transpennine Express is an overcrowded, overpriced railway. Similar for Great Western.

Yeah, because the West Coast franchise is really similar to Scotrail and TPE isn't it? Virgin's success on the WC might just have something to do with the massively upgraded infrastructure and large, new(ish) fleet of state-of-the-art rolling stock they operate? Never mind the fact that they operate not one challenging regional service and yes I do consider regional services to be more challenging for various reasons.

Scotrail and TPE, never mind Northern, are franchises that Virgin wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Sure, Virgin Rail Group are a respectable operator, but the way some people hold them on an untouchable pedestal astounds me.

Overpriced? Virgin are not exactly a bargain for last minute travel either. When I compare advances between Virgin and TPE between Preston and Edinburgh, the latter usually has the edge on price.

 

[fgwrich]

So who do would you prefer, Arriva, NatEx? Give me First anyday.

And me too! NX might be trying to flourish under what is essentially ex First Group / Stagecoach / Virgin management, but at the end of the day they'll still be National Express - So expect cost cutting sneaking everywhere including greater use of vinyls and bodge job repairs - And i still can't forgive them for both the fiascos of East Coast and 'ONE' / National Express East Anglia.

Anyway, i can't see what First has done wrong on Great Western, considering they've turned it around from one of the worst franchises in the country - a combination of p*ss poor management from First Great Western (Alison Forster), the complete and utter carp inherited from Nat Ex's Wessex Trains, and the DfT. But as it's been posted before, this can all come down to the franchise managent.

 

[HSTEd]

I do wonder if a timetable recast could merge the wolverhampton terminator with the Birmingham-Scotland trains and thus save running an extra train per hour between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

I know its a tiny tiny drop in the ocean... but every little helps?

 

[Wath Yard]

It's a busy route and the fewer trains ICWC run between Brum and Wolves the smaller share of the revenue they will receive, so it wouldn't make commercial sense.

 

[David10]

I do wonder if a timetable recast could merge the wolverhampton terminator with the Birmingham-Scotland trains and thus save running an extra train per hour between Birmingham and Wolverhampton

It will depend on the minimum number of services the TOC is required to operate between the 2 destinations. Some Virgin services effectively operate this way with a London-Birmingham service then forming a Birmingham-Scotland and recall the ITT gave the flexibility for bidders to come up with alternative ideas. But agree with 8 other services an hour can't see it being too much of a problem outside the peaks.

 

[HSTEd]

It's a busy route and the fewer trains ICWC run between Brum and Wolves the smaller share of the revenue they will receive, so it wouldn't make commercial sense.

I didn't think the DfT would take too kindly to being expected to bankroll the cost of running an extra service on what amounts to an ORCATs raid.

 

[Wath Yard]

The DfT won't be bankrolling it and the service already exists so it isn't an ORCATs raid. TOCs want to make money, especially when they have to pay the DfT £5-£7 bn over 15 years, so they are not going to just voluntarily give up a slice of a lucrative flow so they can transfer a unit to some other service.

 

[HSTEd]

The DfT won't be bankrolling it and the service already exists so it isn't an ORCATs raid. TOCs want to make money, especially when they have to pay the DfT £5-£7 bn over 15 years, so they are not going to just voluntarily give up a slice of a lucrative flow so they can transfer a unit to some other service.

Would the profit of having a second train per hour between Birmingham and Wolverhampton really make enough money to cover the extra running costs of a Voyager set (or even a coupled pair on Birmingham-Scotland) that runs entirely under wire because of a shortage of Pendolinos?
(I ask because otherwise the DfT is bankrolling it.)

And since you save rather more than one unit overall, thanks to not having two turnaround margins at Birmingham/Wolverhampton, the calculation becomes very interesting.

 

[Wath Yard]

I have no idea what you are saying. The DfT are not bankrolling anything. The TOC will be contracted to pay a premium. They will also be contracted to operate a certain minimum service. Whatever they do above and beyond that, providing they meet their obligations, is completely up to them and at their risk.

 

[David10]

Virgin also use the Wolverhampton terminators as a way of running sets on and off Oxley depot minimising ECS running. ITT states that a minimum of 41 services per weekday to/from London must call at Wolverhampton and to/from Scotland 29 http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/intercity-west-coast-franchise-itt/attachment-a.pdf

 

[HSTEd]

Virgin also use the Wolverhampton terminators as a way of running sets on and off Oxley depot minimising ECS running. ITT states that a minimum of 41 services per weekday to/from London must call at Wolverhampton and to/from Scotland 29 http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/intercity-west-coast-franchise-itt/attachment-a.pdf

Wait, ow many trains do call there?

I thought there was only an hourly Wolverhampton train and the Birmingham-Scotland?

 

[dvboy]

Service levels at Wolverhampton are fine, they don't need changing one bit.

 

[David10]

Wait, ow many trains do call there?

I thought there was only an hourly Wolverhampton train and the Birmingham-Scotland?

Quick count from the current timetable excluding Olympic extras show 46 to/from London and 31 to/from Scotland.

 

[WatcherZero]

There's more to look at then just % increase in passengers.

Virgin's Scottish services didn't serve Chorley or Manchester Airport. The regular Windermere-Man Airport services were lost so that TPE had stock to run the Scottish services and Northern run more Manchester-Preston services than they did when Virgin run Manchester-Scotland services. All these things affect loadings on Manchester-Scotland services.

Likewise with Virgin they've dropped smaller stations like Hartford as calling points and as service frequencies have increased they've removed some pick up and set down restrictions and introduce Virgin only local fares. Their enhanced services have also directly taken passengers off other operators e.g. ATW halved the number of Crewe-Chester shuttles to allow Virgin to run an hourly Chester-London service in what was previously an ATW path.

You can't just say in 1998 Virgin had x number of passengers and last year they had y when so many things have changed. You need like-for-like comparisons e.g. x number of passengers did Liverpool-London with Virgin in 1998 and y in 2011.

The figures im giving are for long distance tickets sold, therefore route changes, short distance passengers and choice of toc is irrelevent, people are simply going from A-B by the easiest possible route and its the increase in these long distance passengers that is being measured.

 

[northernrail2009]

If First do get it could Virgin staff take some form of strike action or would there be no point in doing that?

 

[Pen Mill]

If First do get it could Virgin staff take some form of strike action or would there be no point in doing that?

I thought that under the transfer of undertakings laws (TUPE) , the successful party had to take the entire workforce , no option .