Prevented from boarding while doors closing

[notadriver]

Does a passenger have grounds to complain if they are prevented from boarding a train while the doors are closing ?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

No. In fact, it is an offence (Byelaw 10(5)).

 

[Mojo]

It depends on the reason for the doors being closed. If the doors were closed on a customer, a customer shouted at using inappropriate language, or if inappropriate physical contact was used, then I would agree that a complaint should be made.

If a customer running onto the platform at the last minute was being asked not to board or walked into a member of staff who was stood nearby, then that is a different manner.

I have no time for people who prevent train doors from closing, or pull them apart. Where I am, door faults are one of the most common reasons for trains being withdrawn from service, therefore it affects the service for everyone. In training, staff are encouraged to be as proactive as possible when carrying out duties on the platform to prevent customers from attempting to pass through train doors when they are about to close.

 

[p123]

No. In fact, it is an offence (Byelaw 10(5)).

Is it really as clear cut as this though? I have, on a couple of occasions during rush hour in Glasgow seen DOO services have their doors closed when people were still attempting to board 'normally', not rushing or last minute boarding or anything just boarding a busy train. I'd note on both these occasions it was during disruption, and on neither occasion was I much impressed with such an action.

I understand that every TOC has a train dispatch policy, and I assume that this would include not closing the doors while general boarding is taking place.

However, if the doors were seen to be clear, and the hustle alarm was sounding THEN someone running to/on the platform decided to attempt to board the train, this would very clearly be an offence under the byelaw. However, in the circumstances I described above, I don't think it's as black and white.

 

[Skimble19]

Perhaps you should explain in what context you're asking the question?

 

[notadriver]

Perhaps you should explain in what context you're asking the question?

Sorry. No one boarding - departure time and hustle alarm sounding. Passengers running for the train.

 

[starrymarkb]

[youtube]esHkNNJf9bI[/youtube]

 

[ainsworth74]

Sorry. No one boarding - departure time and hustle alarm sounding. Passengers running for the train.

No they have no grounds to complain and as noted above are possibly in violation of Byelaw 10 (5).

 

[tannedfrog]

Sorry. No one boarding - departure time and hustle alarm sounding. Passengers running for the train.

If the train was going to leave significantly early then there might be some justification for helping a colleague / family member / elderly person catch it

 

[Lampshade]

Sorry. No one boarding - departure time and hustle alarm sounding. Passengers running for the train.

The Guard is under no obligation to delay the train by any duration to allow late running passengers to board.

 

[Searle]

[youtube]esHkNNJf9bI[/youtube]

I did not see that coming!

 

[WestCountry]

I did not see that coming!

Same here!

 

[BestWestern]

Put simply, passengers should not attempt to board a train when the doors are closing. The hustle alarm gives an indication of this if it isn't already clear, and once that alarm is sounding nobody should be attempting to board. Any other considerations, such as timings and so on, are irrelevant - if the doors are closing and you are still on the platform, do not attempt to board, simple as that. There are reasons why train doors may be closing before the advertised departure time, obvious examples being attaching or detaching portions of the train, or a train having become full to capacity on a very busy service.

Is it really as clear cut as this though? I have, on a couple of occasions during rush hour in Glasgow seen DOO services have their doors closed when people were still attempting to board 'normally', not rushing or last minute boarding or anything just boarding a busy train. I'd note on both these occasions it was during disruption, and on neither occasion was I much impressed with such an action.

It may have been that the train was full and ready to depart, but hoards of passengers were still attempting to force their way on. Sometimes the only way is simply to close the doors, as crowds of people will often still be stood there trying to barge their way through no matter how many times they have been yelled at not to. The Underground functions perfectly well using this policy, anything else would simply result in standstill.

 

[Mojo]

The Underground functions perfectly well using this policy, anything else would simply result in standstill.

I hate saying this, but this is no 'official' policy of LUL and any Train Operator closing the doors on a customer could find themselves in serious trouble. Dwell time at busy stations is managed through the use of platform staff performing Sats duties (wearing a Hi-vi and using a baton and radio public address) through the proactive use of announcements.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Sorry, but written policy (not that there is one) often bears no resemblance to how things work in reality. If there is no policy of initiating the doors closing procedure while people are still boarding at busy stations and particularly in peak hours we would have paralysis on the network in no time at all.

How do you think the safe and prompt despatch of trains at very busy unstaffed stations is managed? The traincrew are quite capable of using their judgement of the situation to decide when to start closing the doors.

 

[PTF62]

But if the rail staff are perceived as being inconsiderate by deliberately closing doors whilst people are trying to board (quite possibly for a valid reason, but this will not have been communicated to the passengers), then don't be surprised when passengers reciprocate.

A good example is on the tube at busy times. The doors are frequently closed whilst passengers are still getting off, and yet they ask passengers not to get on whilst people are getting off. Is it any surprise then that the passengers who have been patiently waiting on the platform may be a tad irritated when someone tries to close the doors before they can get on?

 

[221129]

But they have a timetable to stick too....

 

[swj99]

The hustle alarm gives an indication of this if it isn't already clear, and once that alarm is sounding nobody should be attempting to board.

What about infrequent travellers who may not be regular users of public transport in this country, or who only use the train once every decade or so. For example, I know of people who haven't been on a train since slam door carriages were in regular use. How would people like this know what was intended to be meant by an alarm being sounded ?

 

[PTF62]

But they have a timetable to stick too....

despite their customers.

 

[RPM]

despite their customers.

Perhaps the majority of passengers would be better served by an on-time departure?

 

[notadriver]

despite their customers.

What about this situation ? Doors started to close. Running Passenger 1 reaches train and wrenches doors apart. Safety mechanism stops door closing. Passenger 1 boards. After 10 seconds door attempts to reclose. More passengers are running and force open the closing doors a second time. Train is now a minute late with next one in 6 minutes.

Driver gets out of cab as door being forced open is next to cab. He stands by the door to stop even more people running for the train forcing the doors apart. Passengers push past the driver and the half closed doors stating he has no right to block the doors.

 

[PTF62]

Perhaps the majority of passengers would be better served by an on-time departure?

Prisoners dilemma.

Anyway, if an on-time departure without passengers running up to the train is desirable then FCC's trains from Kings Cross wouldn't frequently have their platform only announced with a minute or to spare, or in the case of a train recently, the platform was announced only as the train was due to leave. And did any of the FCC staff care...

So as I mentioned before, the service dished out to your customers has a direct impact on customer behaviour.

 

[Monty]

The guard (or driver on DOO services) should not begin to close their doors until most of the passengers have boarded the train. However I see no problem in beginning the close doors procedure when the last last couple of passengers are still boarding, the hustle alarm gives ample time to warn passengers of the doors before they actually close. However if passengers are running onto the platform at the last possible moment, I'm sorry but it's get those doors closed and give the right away to your driver.

The time keeping of passengers is non of my concern, but the time keeping of my train is. Get to the station 10 minutes earlier.

 

[PTF62]

The time keeping of passengers is non of my concern, but the time keeping of my train is. Get to the station 10 minutes earlier.

And if you have been at the station for 20 minutes, but the platform number for the 16:40 isn't displayed on the board until 16:39 (or even later), with the same board also displaying that the train is "On time"?

 

[Trog]

Get to the station 10 minutes earlier.

Often no point doing that as the platform will be changed with no notice given.

 

[sbt]

The time keeping of passengers is non of my concern, but the time keeping of my train is. Get to the station 10 minutes earlier.

My experience, on occasion, is that I could have arrived (discounting the other trains to my destination) a day early and I would still have nearly, or actually, missed my train.

The relevant platform is often announced late, for example the last time I was at Waterloo, earlier this month and was part of a large crowd of people given very few minutes (3, IIRC) reach their train. It is not unknown for platform changes at Woking to be announced very late, sometimes actually at the booked departure time. If you are unable to move very fast you _will_ miss that train, no matter how early you arrived at the station.

Other situations may arise, for example last year I has to watch my train depart as the RPI's had a block on, the Ticket Machines were down and only one person was on in the Ticket Office to handle the Monday Morning Rush. I arrived with 20 minutes to spare for a journey I don't normally make and had to put up with the RPI grinning in triumph at those of us that missed the train.

It may be the case that the timekeeping of passengers is none of _your_ concern, but once at the station in good time they should not be placed in a situation where they miss their train through lack of fitness, psychic ability or the capability to magic a valid ticket out of thin air.

 

[Monty]

And if you have been at the station for 20 minutes, but the platform number for the 16:40 isn't displayed on the board until 16:39 (or even later), with the same board also displaying that the train is "On time"?

I've had that happen to me at Reading where a train arrived at a different platform at very short notice, the train crew and platform staff held up the train to allow for enough time for passengers to move to the correct platform. I would be happy to do this to my own train if this was the case however under normal circumstances this does not apply, and my argument of arriving with plenty of time still stands.

I think we are deviating from the point of the thread with hyperthetical scenarios.

 

[PTF62]

I think we are deviating from the point of the thread with hyperthetical scenarios.

Not really.

If a train company repeatedly causes problems for its customers (late platform announcements or platform changes) that cause passengers to dash for the train, then dashing for a train is clearly acceptable to the train company.

So the train company shouldn't complain when a passenger needs to dash for a train in other circumstances, as to do so would be hypocritical.

 

[sheff1]

The time keeping of passengers is non of my concern, but the time keeping of my train is. Get to the station 10 minutes earlier.

Really ? I was at Manchester Oxford Road last week 10 mins before depature time, aiming to get a Liverpool stopper. This was shown on the screens as departing on time from platform 3. About 45 seconds before the scheduled time an announcement was made that the train would depart from platform 5.

I, and others, went over the footbridge only to arrive as the guard shut the doors in our faces. Being on the station half an hour earlier would not have allowed us to catch the train.

I will be interested to see if Northern, in response to my delay claim, tell me that the timekeeping of passengers in not their concern

 

[317666]

Prisoners dilemma.

Anyway, if an on-time departure without passengers running up to the train is desirable then FCC's trains from Kings Cross wouldn't frequently have their platform only announced with a minute or to spare, or in the case of a train recently, the platform was announced only as the train was due to leave. And did any of the FCC staff care...

So as I mentioned before, the service dished out to your customers has a direct impact on customer behaviour.

FCC at Kings Cross are absolutely ridiculous, announcing the platform for the Cambridge/Kings Lynn express less than five minutes before it's due to depart. One of the reasons I usually use Liverpool Street is that, as well as the trains being emptier (and the fact that, when timed right, I get a 317 :P), the platform for Cambridge trains is usually announced a good ten or fifteen minutes before departure, so there is no rushing around and I have time to walk to the front of the train where it's emptier and there are more seats.