BBC4 Thurs 13th The Age of the Train

[ANorthernGuard]

A loathing of trains? You don't remember her comments about buses then?

Probably on the lines of "horrible smelly things that the working class use" (or words to that effect) lol

 

[jon0844]

A loathing of trains? You don't remember her comments about buses then?

To be fair, loads of people hate buses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To be fair, loads of people hate buses.

They do come in handy when you want to go to places like Ashbourne....

 

[Metroland]

I think Old Timer has written somewhere on this forum in great detail that shows the railway has always done better under a Tory Government, even if the unions would clearly prefer Labour in control.

I think even now, we can see that under the coalition, rail has and will benefit greatly in the coming years.

The programme did quite clearly show just how bad BR had become as a nationalised company, with poor management. Who knows if it could have continued to grow and improve had John Major not instigated privatisation.

In reality it's all very complex, and governments of all shades have been good and bad to the railways.

The height of the railways in the UK was around 1840-1919, a period of Liberal and Conservative governments. Beyond that, there were a few bright spots, arguably the early 1950s with the modernisation plan (although the railways had little traffic growth during this period, and some decline) that came under a Conservative government. 1987-1994, when traffic rapidly picked up, again a Conservative government. And beyond 2002, initially a Labour government then a Conservative led coalition.

Bright spots for Labour was the Transport Act of 1968, which brought in the PTEs, which arguably did some good for urban rail.

The darkest periods were during the 1960s with the Beeching plan, Conservative led, but carried out by Labour. Also much forgotten was the Branch line closures committee of 1949, under a Labour government.

Most Labour governments tend to focus on Health and Education, and the Blair government tended to favour buses, which are used by core Labour supporters. Whereas one of the reasons Cameron supports rail, is trains, by and large (although not exclusively) tend to be used by core Conservative and Liberal voters. The Tories have tended to support business, and on the whole of have more interested in infrastructure compared to Labour, something business (as well as low tax rates) is very keen on!

The rail Unions tend to support a Labour government as they are by and large left leaning, although the RMT tends to be hard left. The Unions movement of course has a long history with the railways, the Trade Disputes Act of 1906 (which meant a Union could not be sued) was tied up with the Taff Vale Railway. The Labour party itself pretty much owes itself to the Amalgamated Society of Railway servants (eventually the NUR, and now the RMT), in particular Thomas Steels, a Doncaster Signalman, who called for an independent party of Labour around 1899.

At that time, conditions for some workers were poor, the Cambrian in particular was famous for it's very long hours. In the post war period, under Labour the Unions became ever more powerful and through strikes and restrictive working practices arguably did an awful lot of damage to the railways, traffic left never to return especially in 1955 when a state of emergency was called.

I think Thatcher regarded the railways and the Coal mines as hot beds of socialism (the two industries of course heavily linked) which is probably why she disliked them, even though her core voters are, and probably mostly always were, their main customers.

 

[Manchester77]

How were the 1930s railway wise?
On Wikipedia page on Southern Railway it says it is thought that the uk has the best railway network in eh world or something like that. Is it true though?

 

[12CSVT]

A loathing of trains? You don't remember her comments about buses then?

I haven't forgotten Thatcher's grossly offensive remark about 'people aged over 30 who use buses being failures'.

 

[Cable Car]

I haven't forgotten Thatcher's grossly offensive remark about 'people aged over 30 who use buses being failures'.

Wasn't there something also about "not owning a car by the age of 25".

The lady probably wasn't in a traffic jam in her life.

 

[12CSVT]

Wasn't there something also about "not owning a car by the age of 25".

The lady probably wasn't in a traffic jam in her life.

As mentioned in post #12 of this thread, she probably had her own personal broomstick.

 

[Welshman]

I haven't forgotten Thatcher's grossly offensive remark about 'people aged over 30 who use buses being failures'.

Me neither.

She wasn't exactly the most environmentally-concerned PM we've ever had.

 

[brianthegiant]

I think Old Timer has written somewhere on this forum in great detail that shows the railway has always done better under a Tory Government, even if the unions would clearly prefer Labour in control.
I think even now, we can see that under the coalition, rail has and will benefit greatly in the coming years.

hehe, with some Thatcher bashing going on there was bound to be some kicking back

But, if we are debating 'which party is best for the railways', then against what indicator? difficult to select any reliable indicator, esp since what is done in the 1st part of any govt is conceived in the last part of the previous one. any analysis of cost/km travelled is misleading as this figure can be cut just by cutting maintenance & letting things rot a bit.
THe indicator I always find most telling is passenger kms - you can see all the major changes & their impact. What we can say from the graph is that there is no clear correlation, that there are a number of factors which would have been present for a Government of any hue. For example people might find New St more appealling after the refurb, but that project was initiated under the last Govt. But on the flip side, there were sharp rises in journeys during the last Labour Govt, but if you just look at the sape of the curve, then reversing the decline, happens just at the time of privatisation.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is of course what today's TASS does over 110mph, and is probably the basis for Virgin plans to run Pendolinos at 135mph.
I'd like to know the practical difference betweeen this and the over-125mph running expected on the GW route under ETCS after 2018 (with the colour lights still working).

On the Western, whilst the signals will be displaying aspects, drivers will not be driving to them. They will be driving to the target speed displayed in cab by ETCS.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the Western, whilst the signals will be displaying aspects, drivers will not be driving to them. They will be driving to the target speed displayed in cab by ETCS.

Yes, I understand that.
What I don't understand is why the proposed 135mph on the WCML under TASS (which would also display the target speed in the cab) is any different.
People still seem to dismiss it as "not possible", or "the RSSB would not authorise it" etc.
Just wondering really.

 

[bluegoblin7]

They do come in handy when you want to go to places like Ashbourne....

As an Ashbourne resident, I can attest to this! Although it's woeful compared to my home town of Enfield...

 

[aspierail]

I watched The Age of the Train on Thursday and thought it was a good programme and looking how the HST has changed in interior wise also it was Valentas used back then nowadays its MTU.

 

[Class 33]

Very good programme. I'm glad they didn't feature a lot of technical talk about how the IC125 engine works, etc. Instead a nostalgic look back to the BR years of the mid 70's to early 80's, and the early years of the IC125. Very much missed in my opinion.

The shots of the carriage interiors and seating, and general atmosphere in the carriages is particularly much missed nowadays. The good ol' days before mobile phones were commonplace. Contract this with the FGW HST carriage interiors now, and there's no competition. They've took out all the old seating and replaced them with those horrid high back seating, where you can't see down the carriage anymore, you're in like a two seat cubicle! And then there's all the mobile phone users we have now, either babbling away or talking business. Yes absolutely no competition, the old days were by far the best. Better more comfortable seating, no nuisance mobile phone users = far better travelling experience.

The old Valenta engines also very much missed. But after 30 years of thousands upon thousands of miles working, it was inevitable they'd have to be re-engined. They couldn't go on for too much longer. But the MTU's engines are just boring and bland compared to the Valenta's!

It is still good that the IC125's are still going strong now though. Did I hear mention in the programme that they could still be in service into the 2030's? I'd be surprised if they're still going that long. If they are then come GWML electrification, a lot of the FGW HST's can be cascaded over to Arriva Cross Country services instead of those bloody awful Voyager's!

 

[Class 33]

A poster reminding of those good ol' Intercity days. Slam-door EMU's and DMU's, the wonderful old 1962 Central Line stock, and the old Valenta engine's HST with their original carriage interiors. Good ol' days, and much missed!

 

[Manchester77]

A poster reminding of those good ol' Intercity days. Slam-door EMU's and DMU's, the wonderful old 1962 Central Line stock, and the old Valenta engine's HST with their original carriage interiors. Good ol' days, and much missed!

I don't think that's 1962 stock as the walls have the jubilee line 70s plastic colour so I reckon it's a 1972 mk2 stock

 

[yorksrob]

I certainly hope that the late Sir Jimmy Saville's gold pass was protected at the time of privatisation.

 

[12CSVT]

I notice the programme didn't mention 43002 being named 'Top of the Pops' in 1982.

 

[transmanche]

A poster reminding of those good ol' Intercity days. Slam-door EMU's and DMU's, the wonderful old 1962 Central Line stock, and the old Valenta engine's HST with their original carriage interiors. Good ol' days, and much missed!

I don't think that's 1962 stock as the walls have the jubilee line 70s plastic colour so I reckon it's a 1972 mk2 stock

It's definitely not a 1962 stock (wrong type of windows and doors) and it's not a 1972 mkII stock (they had red doors from the start).

The station tiles look like they're from the Victoria line era, so it's most likely a 1967 stock - or possibly a 1972 mkI on the Northern line.

 

[Manchester77]

It's definitely not a 1962 stock (wrong type of windows and doors) and it's not a 1972 mkII stock (they had red doors from the start).

The station tiles look like they're from the Victoria line era, so it's most likely a 1967 stock - or possibly a 1972 mkI on the Northern line.

yeah now you've said that, the grey is definitely victoria line and what i mistook for the garish 70s jubilee line plastic was an advert

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I am wondering which SR station is in the top part of the advert; roof style is very SW Division in appearance...??

 

[yorksrob]

I am wondering which SR station is in the top part of the advert; roof style is very SW Division in appearance...??

Fairly standard Southern Railway design. Could be Hayes in Kent come to think of it, looking at the situation and the EPB.

 

[Manchester77]

would it be euston in the bottom one?

 

[Cable Car]

This is the Age of the Train

Can still remember that nearly 40 years on.

 

[Manchester77]

Deleted

 

[SWTCommuter]

I haven't forgotten Thatcher's grossly offensive remark about 'people aged over 30 who use buses being failures'.

Except she wasn't the one that said it...

“...Anybody seen in a bus over the age of 30 has been a failure in life”, wrongly attributed to Margaret Thatcher. According to Daily Telegraph correspondent and historian, Hugo Vickers, (writing in November 2006) the author was Brian Howard. The phrase came into wider use when used by Loelia, Duchess of Westminster, in her memoir, Grace and Favour (1961).

 

[jon0844]

She was misquoted on lots of things, but the funny thing is that even if you correct people they continue to say it anyway, hoping others won't know.

 

[ainsworth74]

She was misquoted on lots of things, but the funny thing is that even if you correct people they continue to say it anyway, hoping others won't know.

Are you suggesting that some people might have an agenda outside of circulating the facts?

 

[dk1]

I notice the programme didn't mention 43002 being named 'Top of the Pops' in 1982.

Now theres a suprise!! I still remeber Nick Kershaw trying to mime above the din at Temple Meads.