Crewe to Derby line skeleton services.

[eastdyke]

Trains seem to be FAS whenever i use them made worse when racing at Uttoxeter although EMT do try to use 156s then. Always think its a pleasent route to use though.

Agree, a nice route if you get a window seat to actually enjoy it!
Went to DRS open day back in August and did Derby-Crewe on a single 153.
It was rammed and I was first not to get a seat ex Derby. Pax left on platform Stoke onwards - although they could obviously get the next LM.

It was unfortunate that EMT were unable to have done better on a day when Notts County were playing Crewe at Crewe.

The North Stafford Junction - Stoke must be one of the most lightly used double tracked lines in the country. (Without looking at the line usage north of Stoke) I was surprised that there is so little freight use.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I traveled on this route returning from East Midlands Airport a couple years ago. A 153, which seemed so under powered. Every time we eventually got up a bit of speed, it stopped at another station. At least the Pacers have a bit of poke!!! The toilet was working, which was just as well, as i had had a Steak at Spoons in Derby, washed down with several pints!

 

[eastdyke]

Cheshire East, Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent City Councils all appear to provide funding via the North Staffordshire Community Rail Partnership. By all accounts the CRP is also well supported by volunteers.

Perhaps the local authorites should go looking for rolling stock?

 

[northwichcat]

Nottingham to Chester would be a good choice

Reinstate the Halton curve and make it Liverpool-Nottingham via Chester and Crewe. Would give EMT more of a presence at Lime Street, which may help during disruption.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Cheshire East, Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent City Councils all appear to provide funding via the North Staffordshire Community Rail Partnership. By all accounts the CRP is also well supported by volunteers.

Perhaps the local authorites should go looking for rolling stock?

You mention the same Cheshire East council that is trying to save hundreds of thousands of pounds per year in what it pays for public transport and the same one that doesn't have funding for the reopening of the Middlewich branch to passenger traffic despite the benefit:cost ratio being 5:1.

 

[OuterDistant]

Capacity is everything. This line has users for the universities at each end, plus the one at Stoke, and the 6th form which has recently moved next door to the latter. I can think of few worse adverts for rail travel than putting a 153 on under these circumstances.

BTW, most visitors to Uttoxeter Racecourse I know wrote off using the service years ago, mainly because of this.

 

[Robert Taggart]

Quite why this diesel operated service still continues under the wires between Stoke and Crewe - ?

Stopping / electric trains from the Manchester line at Crewe should continue on to Stoke and terminate there - methinks. The same service from Liverpool to Crewe could too, but, guessing the crossing-over of the WCML at Crewe on the northbound service may provide the defeatists with the excuse they crave ?

Derby to Stoke, at least once an hour each way, calling all stations, would be simple to operate even if it denies some passengers a through journey to fewer places.

Nottingham to Liverpool via Derby, Stoke and Manchester - semi-fast - Notiingham > Derby > Uttoxeter > Stoke > Congleton > Macclesfield > Stockport > Manchester Piccadilly > Warrington Central > Liverpool South Parkway > Liverpool Lime Street - would provide some usefull new links, and operate hourly between c.07.00 - 19.00 ? Existing Nottingham to Liverpool services via Sheffield could instead be diverted to Leeds ?

 

[northwichcat]

Quite why this diesel operated service still continues under the wires between Stoke and Crewe - ?

Stopping / electric trains from the Manchester line at Crewe should continue on to Stoke and terminate there - methinks.

It was once proposed that the Piccadilly-Airport-Crewe service should be extended to Stoke with Stoke-Derby being tagged on to another service but then that idea was withdrawn in favour of extending the Derby-Crewe service to the Airport which is seen as superior due to giving Crewe an extra Airport service and more places a direct Airport link.

The same service from Liverpool to Crewe could too, but, guessing the crossing-over of the WCML at Crewe on the northbound service may provide the defeatists with the excuse they crave ?

What Liverpool-Crewe service? Are you referring to the Liverpool-Birmingham service?

Nottingham to Liverpool via Derby, Stoke and Manchester - semi-fast - Notiingham > Derby > Uttoxeter > Stoke > Congleton > Macclesfield > Stockport > Manchester Piccadilly > Warrington Central > Liverpool South Parkway > Liverpool Lime Street - would provide some usefull new links, and operate hourly between c.07.00 - 19.00 ? Existing Nottingham to Liverpool services via Sheffield could instead be diverted to Leeds ?

Good luck finding paths for that!

And what would you do about the Manchester/Stockport to Sheffield/Chesterfield passengers?

 

[Coolguy22468]

Quite why this diesel operated service still continues under the wires between Stoke and Crewe - ?

Stopping / electric trains from the Manchester line at Crewe should continue on to Stoke and terminate there - methinks. The same service from Liverpool to Crewe could too, but, guessing the crossing-over of the WCML at Crewe on the northbound service may provide the defeatists with the excuse they crave ?

Derby to Stoke, at least once an hour each way, calling all stations, would be simple to operate even if it denies some passengers a through journey to fewer places.

Nottingham to Liverpool via Derby, Stoke and Manchester - semi-fast - Notiingham > Derby > Uttoxeter > Stoke > Congleton > Macclesfield > Stockport > Manchester Piccadilly > Warrington Central > Liverpool South Parkway > Liverpool Lime Street - would provide some usefull new links, and operate hourly between c.07.00 - 19.00 ? Existing Nottingham to Liverpool services via Sheffield could instead be diverted to Leeds ?

If I was the DFT I would include it in the electrification of the Midland Mainline but Network Rail has other ideas.

The boxes on the line work on two shifts so they are only open from 7:00 till 22:00, if I was Network Rail I would just have one signal box as currently there are boxes at Egginton, Tutbury, Sudbury, Uttoxeter, Creswell, Caverwall and Longton. Realistically it only need 1 box to cover the whole line.

 

[eastdyke]

If I was the DFT I would include it in the electrification of the Midland Mainline but Network Rail has other ideas.

The boxes on the line work on two shifts so they are only open from 7:00 till 22:00, if I was Network Rail I would just have one signal box as currently there are boxes at Egginton, Tutbury, Sudbury, Uttoxeter, Creswell, Caverwall and Longton. Realistically it only need 1 box to cover the whole line.

I don't doubt that all that will happen eventually (but with 0 boxes locally).
The programme of electrification that we have before us now is sufficiently ambitious, many secondary routes will rightly need to wait.
After all we have DMU's that will need somewhere to end their days.

 

[Robert Taggart]

There used to be an hourly stopping service between Liverpool and Crewe - do not know the current set-up, but, all stations Liverpool to Birmingham ? - Yikes !

Manchester, Stockport <> Sheffield - could be provided for by an alternative Trans-Pennine service <> Hull ? - Sheffield > Rotherham > Doncaster > Goole > Brough > Hull, or even Lincoln ? - Sheffield > Worksop > Retford > Gainsborough Lea Road > Lincoln ? This latter being a very poorly served 'corridor'.

Chesterfield would lose out, but, Chesterfield has plenty of other services and is not that big a 'draw' anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

There used to be an hourly stopping service between Liverpool and Crewe - do not know the current set-up, but, all stations Liverpool to Birmingham ? - Yikes !

Not all stops - all call at Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway and half of them call at Hartford and either Winsford or Acton Bridge. Stops between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street are served by Liverpool-Manchester stoppers.

Manchester, Stockport <> Sheffield - could be provided for by an alternative Trans-Pennine service <> Hull ? - Sheffield > Rotherham > Doncaster > Goole > Brough > Hull, or even Lincoln ? - Sheffield > Worksop > Retford > Gainsborough Lea Road > Lincoln ? This latter being a very poorly served 'corridor'.

Chesterfield would lose out, but, Chesterfield has plenty of other services and is not that big a 'draw' anyway.

You really do need to look more at the current situation before making new proposals. Your idea of a Liverpool-Macclesfield-Stoke-Nottingham service wouldn't work at peak times due to a lack of paths, unless you propose sending some of the XC services currently via Macclesfield, via Styal instead (and in turn making somewhere lose an Airport connection) but then you'll lose good connections at Stockport.

 

[OuterDistant]

The boxes on the line work on two shifts so they are only open from 7:00 till 22:00, if I was Network Rail I would just have one signal box as currently there are boxes at Egginton, Tutbury, Sudbury, Uttoxeter, Creswell, Caverwall and Longton. Realistically it only need 1 box to cover the whole line.

Almost! Cresswell closed in 1989 and I think it's currently Egginton, Tutbury, Scropton, Sudbury, Uttoxeter and Caverswall.

Tutbury - Sudbury seems a short stretch of line so you're probably right about 1 box.

 

[Robert Taggart]

You really do need to look more at the current situation before making new proposals. Your idea of a Liverpool-Macclesfield-Stoke-Nottingham service wouldn't work at peak times due to a lack of paths, unless you propose sending some of the XC services currently via Macclesfield, via Styal instead (and in turn making somewhere lose an Airport connection) but then you'll lose good connections at Stockport.

Au contraire... The Northern Rail services from Manchester which currently extend beyond Macclesfield to Stoke - could be 'trimmed back' to Mac'. There being a loop line / platform at Mac' in which to stable. A stop at Kidsgrove - ' Stoke North Parkway' - could possibly be inserted.
Regarding Manchester Airport connections - indeed, some may lose out, but, some may gain connections to other places - you cannot serve everyone form everywhere to everywhere. Simples !

 

[northwichcat]

Au contraire... The Northern Rail services from Manchester which currently extend beyond Macclesfield to Stoke - could be 'trimmed back' to Mac'. There being a loop line / platform at Mac' in which to stable. A stop a Kidsgrove - ' Stoke North Parkway' - could possibly be inserted.

And what trains would then call at Congleton?

A Network Rail proposal is to EXTEND the Manchester-Stoke service to Birmingham via Stone, which will allow the Crewe-Euston service to follow the more direct route.

Regarding Manchester Airport connections - indeed, some may lose out, but, some may gain connections to other places - you cannot serve everyone form everywhere to everywhere. Simples !

It was really connections at Stockport that's the bigger issue.

Some one from Hale, can currently do:

Hale: 07:28
Stockport a: 07:56
CHANGE TRAINS
Stockport d: 08:16
Birmingham a: 09:39

Send the 08:07 Piccadilly-Birmingham services via Styal instead (xx:07s being the ones without the Macclesfield call)

and that becomes:
Hale: 07:28
Stockport a: 07:56
CHANGE TRAINS
Manchester Piccadilly a: 08:21
TOO LATE FOR 08:07 SERVICE and so adds 30 minutes to the journey time.

I agree you cannot serve everyone form everywhere to everywhere but if you're going to cut links you need to find the ones that are rarely used e.g. it was found that hardly anyone travelled between Salford Crescent and Scotland despite having a direct service, so when the Manchester-Scotland service needed to be speeded up the direct link went.

 

[Robert Taggart]

And what trains would then call at Congleton?

Some one from Hale, can currently do:...

The Liverpool <> Nottingham service would call at Congleton.

As for Hale - ah, the 'penny drops' ! - oneself, not being from Hale - does not care for Hale !!

A Liverpool <> Manchester <> Stoke <> Derby <> Nottingham, semi fast service, would provide far more quality through journey opportunities for...
1. Liverpool / Warrington <> Macclesfield / Congleton / Kidsgrove / Stoke / Uttoxeter / Derby.
2. Stoke <> Uttoxeter / Derby / Nottingham.
3. Derby <> Nottingham.

To surmise - more winners than losers !

 

[northwichcat]

As for Hale - ah, the 'penny drops' ! - oneself, not being from Hale - does not care for Hale !!

Hale's just named as probably the worst affected place. However, larger places like Buxton, Hazel Grove, Knutsford, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme would also be affected if XC reduced how many services served Stockport.

You do of course realise that people with power saying the exact statement you made with the name places changed is the very reason that EMT's services are below par.

I'd suggest we just close your local station as it's probably not a station that I ever use so I don't care about it.

 

[ivanhoe]

The problem with this route is the lack of route opportunities to grow this route . I see similar problems with Nuneaton to Coventry. Both are easy routes to cut when there are stock/ staff problems. Under Central, they both came within one TOC. EMT can't really get good revenues unless it can be extended to places where more people wish to travel to. This impinges on other TOC revenues.

The A50 is a fast route and Derby to Stoke is much quicker by Car than train. It is ripe for fast bus routes . This line will further suffer once the Midland Main is wired . It needs more regular passengers and for me living in Loughborough, you would think that it would be a good line to use when regularly travelling to Lime Street. I rarely go via Derby to Crewe simply because connections and timings are better via Nuneaton or Sheffield or Birmingham.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Au contraire... The Northern Rail services from Manchester which currently extend beyond Macclesfield to Stoke - could be 'trimmed back' to Mac'.

Was there not some specific TfGM funding towards the cost of the service extension from Macclesfield to Stoke in recent years ? Can someone give further information on this matter ?

 

[dk1]

A few years back during engineering works Liverpool-Norwich services where diverted via & Crewe/Stoke. Trains where retimed to depart Lime Street 35 minutes later at xx.27 picking up their booked working foward from Nottingham. If i remember correctly they also stopped at principal stations as seem to recall that Norwich was an extremelly unusual destination at Stoke-on-Trent.

 

[ivanhoe]

A few years back during engineering works Liverpool-Norwich services where diverted via & Crewe/Stoke. Trains where retimed to depart Lime Street 35 minutes later at xx.27 picking up their booked working foward from Nottingham. If i remember correctly they also stopped at principal stations as seem to recall that Norwich was an extremelly unusual destination at Stoke-on-Trent.

I remember that happening. It also stopped at Loughborough and then went via the Syston junction to Peterborough. My lad was on the train and got off at Loughborough. Sometime in 1990's that was.

 

[OuterDistant]

A stop a Kidsgrove - ' Stoke North Parkway' - could possibly be inserted.

I've often thought that Longport could be a sort of "Stoke-on-Trent North"
station - it's right next to a junction on the A500, and there's decent space around it for parking.

 

[Coolguy22468]

I've often thought that Longport could be a sort of "Stoke-on-Trent North"
station - it's right next to a junction on the A500, and there's decent space around it for parking.

I would rename Longport to Burslem or Stoke-on-Trent North as Longport itself is just a small district of the city, I wouldn't park there I don't like swapping tires for bricks.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Couldn't xc take it on as a crewe to bhm via Derby service?

 

[MCR247]

Using what stock? And why being the main question? Is an extra train between Derby and Birmingham really needed? That is before we even go into paths at New Street...

 

[6Gman]

A bigger issue (than occasional Uttoxeter race days) is the lack of longer distance services.

For operational reasons this line has lost its direct links to Manchester Airport, Nottingham etc, and is therefore relegated to a shuttle between Derby and Crewe, which means its downgraded to just 153s.

.

Did you ever use the service when it ran?

It would come into Crewe from Derby - 90% of the passengers would alight. A handful would board, and off it went! Cost an additional unit, and required a through platform at Crewe. Much as I enjoyed having 2tph to the Airport it was a very poor use of resources.

 

[Welshman]

Ideally, the future of this line would be to provide fast W-E services, eg Bangor & North Wales to Derby, Nottingham, Leicester/Grantham & Lincolnshire, without the need to go via Manchester, Birmingham or Nuneaton.

But there are currently several problems. Which TOC would operate this service? It falls within the areas of three TOCs - ATW, EMT & XC. ATW[funded & guided by WAG], seems only concerned with going to Cardiff, and EMT is short of stock, hence the pitifully inadequate 153 relegated to the Crewe-Derby shuttle.

Also, of no help whatsoever, is the current layout at Crewe, where, I think, only platforms 6 or 11 can be used by through Chester-Stoke trains.

But it does seem a waste of potential. A fast service from Crewe to Derby, stopping only at Stoke-on-Trent, should be possible in about 1hr, competing more realistically with the A50 dual-carriageway. And beyond the Kegworth interchange, you are on to single-carriageway roads to Nottingham/Grantham and Lincolnshire, so a fast rail service should have the advantage.

But who would run it?
It seems to suffer from the usual problem of being an east-west link rather than a north-south one.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

If cross country ran it the could do it Using the existing 170s making 1tph nottingham and the other current notts being diverted to crewe instead of notts.

Extra stock can then come from a electrified Worcester?

 

[Coolguy22468]

Did you ever use the service when it ran?

It would come into Crewe from Derby - 90% of the passengers would alight. A handful would board, and off it went! Cost an additional unit, and required a through platform at Crewe. Much as I enjoyed having 2tph to the Airport it was a very poor use of resources.

The Airport services from what I remember were quite popular because they didn't stop anywhere not even Wilmslow which was quite useful if you wanted a connection to the airport from crewe, I read Network Rail in their RUS mentioned it but the problem was the rolling stock is inadequate for this.

 

[ashworth]

I was at college in Derby for 3 years between 1975 and 1978. I used to regularly travel between Lowdham (Nottingham to Lincoln Line)and Derby. The service I used was the then hourly Lincoln-Newark-Nottingham-Derby-Stoke-Crewe service.

Restoring this old idea of a through hourly Lincoln to Crewe service would restore many lost connections and make journeys from Nottingham to North Wales, North West England and Scotland much easier with just one change at Crewe. It would also do much to sort the problaems of Lincoln's dreadful connections to the wider rail network by restoring through trains to Derby for connections to the South West via Birmingham.

This used to be such an important route from Nottingham to Crewe for connections into WCML to Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow and perhaps if it had remained as an alternative EMT wouldn't have had quite such a problem of overcrowding on the Nottingham-Liverpool services. Currently passengers from Nottingham to stations up the WCML have to endure changing at Derby and Crewe or at Manchester (using the the very busy through platforms at Picadilly and often also an additional change at Preston.

Another very frustrating point about having to change at Derby is that the Nottingham-Matlock and Derby-Crewe services do not connect as one departs just as the other is arriving. I know there are alternative Cross Country Services between Derby and Nottingham but it is annoying to arrive in Derby from Crewe to see a Nottingham train just departing from what often could be a simple cross platform connection.

 

[MCR247]

If cross country ran it the could do it Using the existing 170s making 1tph nottingham and the other current notts being diverted to crewe instead of notts.

Extra stock can then come from a electrified Worcester?

No, just no. Nottingham would get 1tph Nottingham - Birmingham to give Crewe another Birmingham train that no-one has any reason to use.