Threw away ticket for first part of journey (Thatto Heath - Edge Hill - Birkenhead)

[trainophile]

I'm just wondering whether by any chance mrscherry still has her boyfriend's text on her phone, the one which altered their arrangements. Just in case the matter does go to court, it might be advisable to retain this "evidence".

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I'm just wondering whether by any chance mrscherry still has her boyfriend's text on her phone, the one which altered their arrangements. Just in case the matter does go to court, it might be advisable to retain this "evidence".

(I am not an expert in these matters, but if it was my reputation on the line, I would clutch every straw going!)
I was thinking that, or maybe your boyfriend still has it in his sent file.
Could help to establish exact time and which trains.
Time to get a sharp pencil and large sheet of paper, and note everything down, from time leaving house to what was said to the inspectors.
Maybe you heard at the ticket window where the customer before you was going to etc. Any cctv?
Above all stick to true facts.
Good luck.

 

[34D]

BTW: Is everyone on here just ordinary people, or do they/have they worked for northern rail?

No, none of us are ordinary, and many of us are certified insane.

A few lads from northern and other train companies on here.

 

[Starmill]

TOCs do monitor forum sites such as this. This is correct.

You learn something new everyday. And now I know why so many people have signatures to the effect of "These are my views only and not those of my employers".

 

[snail]

My point is, Northern's case for suggesting she lied about boarding at Edge Hill is about as weak as hers is for saying she didn't (with nil evidence of this).

So if you were in her situation would you be happy arguing your case in court? It's a very easy to make a throwaway comment when you are not the one being threatened with prosecution.

Northern will have plenty of past cases where people have admitted to 'buying short' by claiming they have travelled from Edge Hill when they haven't. These leaflets will carry no legal weight in an absolute sense but when claiming intent to avoid payment the person asking for the Edge Hill ticket will either
- have passed a ticket office (and people handing out these leaflets)
- changed trains at Edge Hill (lots do, I've done it myself)

The railways laws and byelaws put the onus on the passenger to provide proof, in the second example that will normally be a valid ticket purchased before boarding or on the second train (as the OP claims).

 

[exile]

I'm afraid a lot of comments here are from people who obviously don't travel to Lime Street every day and assume the normal "buy a ticket before boarding" convention is applied there.

It's common practice to buy a ticket on arrival, or on the train, rather than before boarding. I have no idea why - the vast majority of stations in the Liverpool area are staffed in the morning - but that's the way it is. There is an excess ticket kiosk, before the barrier for this which for obvious reasons tends to have a long queue in the morning.

After the barrier there are sometimes (but not always) RPIs who stop people who have gone through the barrier without tickets. Presumably one of these stopped the OP - I can't fathom out why they did so as I have always assumed they target those without tickets - maybe they had a special operation targetting people with tickets from Edge Hill?

If your train arrives at platforms 8 or 9 there is no ticket check on arrival at all!

 

[AntoniC]

Yes but Platforms 7, 8 & 9 at Lime Street are for VT & LM trains only.

Platforms 1-6 are for for all other TOC`s.

 

[Starmill]

So if you were in her situation would you be happy arguing your case in court? It's a very easy to make a throwaway comment when you are not the one being threatened with prosecution.

Well, I've never been to court so I don't know how much evidence of mrscherry being in Thatto Heath suggested - but there seems to be quite a lot - would actually be accepted. So I can't speak to that. But I never throw away any of my tickets (partly because some of them I'm obliged to keep, but the others for reasons such as this).

I've just realised this must be why there is always a lone G4S man at the bottom of the ramp at Mauldeth Road (the last stop on the Northbound Styal Line before Manchester Pic), but he's never given leaflets to anyone, and the other day when the ticket office was closed I just walked straight past him! People were queuing up to use the TVM, but It doesn't accept cash, so I just got on.

Thing is, I think they just put him there to show intent (at MAU at least) because normally, the ticket office is open and he doesn't check anyone's tickets (although it may be the case that he stops them if they don't go to the machine or the office, and asks people to show season tickets, but like I said, he didn't stop me the other day when the ticket office was closed).

 

[sheff1]

The thing I don't understand (and I'm no expert in any of this) is how can Northern justify handing out "leaflets" to people getting on at Edge Hill - to PROVE that they did so? What do they look like? What do they say? What are the legal implications of Northern forcing people to use one of these "leaflets" to buy a ticket from Edge Hill?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way Northern can rightly refuse to sell anyone a ticket from Edge Hill at Lime St. is to have 24 hour ticket selling facilities available there, and display notices to the effect of "You must always hold a valid ticket for your journey before boarding any train from this station". Or perhaps barriers or a permit to travel machine? LOL

Based on my experiences the other side of the Pennines, I think the term 'leaflet' is a misnomer. But, of course, things may be different in Liverpool.

There was a previous discussion on the legal implications of these 'permits to travel' but I can't find it at the moment.

 

[exile]

Yes but Platforms 7, 8 & 9 at Lime Street are for VT & LM trains only.

Platforms 1-6 are for for all other TOC's.

Not true. NT trains often use platforms 8 and 9 - as indeed do some EMT and TP services.

Platform 7 is exclusively for VT trains - it does have a barrier but checks are done on boarding only (on the assumption if you arrive you've had your ticket checked on board - which is not necessarily so if you joined at Runcorn)

 

[MattRobinson]

Nothing in theory I believe, however as you can see the reality is somewhat different.

What if a genuine traveller decided to travel from edge hill, bought a ticket and just said no thanks to the person giving out leaflets because they thought that they were trying to sell them something? It could easily happen, IMO.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[island]

If they bought a ticket, they won't need a leaflet.

 

[MattRobinson]

If they bought a ticket, they won't need a leaflet.

What's to stop them buying short on the train? Occasionally, on the trains I catch, the guard doesn't come along the train until the penultimate stop asking whether anyone needs a ticket who hasn't got one.

 

[jon0844]

Just to clarify, when I got off the train I got a text to say I would be travelling to birkenhead north. At that point I got rid of my ticket as I knew I wouldnt be leaving the station so didn't think I needed it. And would need to buy a new one edge hill to bhead north

I never get rid of tickets until I'm back home, and quite often not for days/weeks after - usually when my ticket wallet is getting a bit thick.

I'd never get rid of any ticket before leaving railway property as there could be random checks anywhere.

I wonder if there's CCTV that could 'prove' your story? Did you show the revenue officer the text that said there was a change of plan? You could have staged both though, so that might still not count for much.

Also, if you keep other tickets for months (going way back from that photo), why the sudden rush to throw away the ticket that day, on the platform?

 

[Flying Snail]

What's to stop them buying short on the train? Occasionally, on the trains I catch, the guard doesn't come along the train until the penultimate stop asking whether anyone needs a ticket who hasn't got one.

If they attempted to buy on board then it would depend on what the TOC had arranged. If Guards were pre-notified that all Edge Hill* passengers would present with vouchers then he could either refuse to sell and tell them to speak to the station staff or try and get them to admit their actual boarding point and sell them that ticket. Alternatively Guards may have been instructed to stop selling after departure feom Edge Hill*.

It is also worth pointing out that some Guards can in some situations take note of actual passengers boarding their trains at such locations and be aware before asking that a passenger has not boarded at that stop so can without the aid of vouchers catch out these types.


The posts complaining about the vouchers not being fair/legal are rather stupid. As long as it is done correctly it is a very simple way of weeding out the genuine Edge Hill* passengers from the fare dodgers using short distance stations to regularly defraud the train companies.

 

[W230]

Yeah, I seen something on the internet about a guy being took to court over 50p, pretty ridiculous really I think when there are people out there committing serious crimes but hey ho.

I guess Northern's argument is about the dishonesty, rather than the actual monetary value of the ticket.

I work with a guy who worked in ticket fraud. The stories and excuses he says he used to hear are genuinely amazing. He says that the people he used to encounter came from all walks of life and many would consider themselves upstanding members of the community who would never dream of committing dishonesty elsewhere.

He admits he became pretty cynical after hearing the same excuses all the time. I guess when someone does make a genuine mistake it just becomes that bit harder to convince them it was in good faith!

 

[sheff1]

If they bought a ticket, they won't need a leaflet.

Yes they would.

 

[steadmane]

I don't understand, rather than have staff handing out leaflets why not just have them checking tickets and directing them to the ticket office to purchase if they don't have one?

The leaflet concept must be so fundamentally flawed as to be almost useless - you can't force a person to keep a leaflet on them in the same way as they must keep a ticket. There surely can't be any byelaws that require that - and NR are not dealing with the fundamental issue of trying to encourage people to purchase before travelling? It does almost seem like some sort of trap. Is there some specific law which requires you to hold a ticket OR a leaflet?

As for the OP's issue - I don't quite understand why you buy a ticket at Lime St and then are picked up by the RPI. Surely you would just answer what leaflet?

 

[Swirlz]

I don't understand, rather than have staff handing out leaflets why not just have them checking tickets and directing them to the ticket office to purchase if they don't have one?

The leaflet concept must be so fundamentally flawed as to be almost useless - you can't force a person to keep a leaflet on them in the same way as they must keep a ticket. There surely can't be any byelaws that require that - and NR are not dealing with the fundamental issue of trying to encourage people to purchase before travelling? It does almost seem like some sort of trap. Is there some specific law which requires you to hold a ticket OR a leaflet?

As for the OP's issue - I don't quite understand why you buy a ticket at Lime St and then are picked up by the RPI. Surely you would just answer what leaflet?

It happens at Bache when going into Chester too.

You buy or show a ticket you already have to the Inspector before you can get on the train, and they give you a slip/leaflet about producing it when you get off in aid of reducing fare evasion.

I guess if you just showed a Bache-Chester ticket at Chester they would be suspicious that you had not actually got on there.

You might not be able to force somebody to take the leaflet/slip, but it is in their best interest too, because it saves the hassle of being questioned or under suspicion, when you try to leave! I would expect the rules allow staff to ask questions about your journey!

I notice Byelaw 18-2 requires you to produce "verification of validity", so I imagine these leaflets are the "verification".

 

[steadmane]

Thanks for the info. I stand corrected. I suppose I just don't understand why they don't just use the staff to check/sell the damn tickets at the station if they are trying to stop the habit of buying at destination.

 

[wintonian]

Thanks for the info. I stand corrected. I suppose I just don't understand why they don't just use the staff to check/sell the damn tickets at the station if they are trying to stop the habit of buying at destination.

Because they can't charge for undiscounted anytime fares; issue unpaid fares notices or prosecute people if they sell them a ticket before getting on the train.

 

[cuccir]

You might not be able to force somebody to take the leaflet/slip, but it is in their best interest too, because it saves the hassle of being questioned or under suspicion, when you try to leave! I would expect the rules allow staff to ask questions about your journey!

I notice Byelaw 18-2 requires you to produce "verification of validity", so I imagine these leaflets are the "verification".

I don't think so. From Byelaw 18(2)

"A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity".

It's just describing the two things that will happen to a ticket when handed over - inspection (ie, checking what's on the ticket) and verification of validity (ie checking, if needed, the routeing guide or off-peak restrictions).

I think that the leaflets are extremely dodgy practice. However, that doesn't stop that the Original Poster traveled without a ticket when she could have purchased one before boarding - I think we shouldn't let a discussion of the rights/wrongs of these leaflets drown that out!

 

[snail]

I suppose I just don't understand why they don't just use the staff to check/sell the damn tickets at the station if they are trying to stop the habit of buying at destination.

Because it's not travel from that one station which is the problem. It's people arriving at Lime Street from other stations but buying a ticket from Edge Hill (other combinations are possible). The root of the problem is that Northern do not have proper ticket facilities at every station.

Using vouchers or leaflets at the most commonly requested destinations is one way of showing people have genuinely travelled from them, if people don't take them then they need to have some other means of proof.

 

[reb0118]

I believe that there is a lot of confusion re. the voucher system that Northern use. However, to me, it is quite simple.

The point is not to ensure that everybody using the said station (in this case Edge Hill) has a valid ticket but to ensure that everybody genuinely boarding at the said station can prove this. If this exercise does see an increase at the said station in tickets purchased then this would be a welcome side effect.

To answer the point of "why not just sell them tickets!" instead of handing out leaflets. This in my opinion will come down to manpower. To sell tickets at an outstation you require at least two members of staff at every entrance/exit to ensure that all persons entering the station have a valid ticket. One man on his own, however, can issue leaflets as no revenue is changing hands. This could mean that the "extra" staff can leaflet another outstation on the line. i.e two stations for the price of one.

Remember the leaflet is the passengers' proof (other proofs, potentially more time consuming to check, may also be available) that they boarded at the said station and, although I know of no legal requirement to keep it, it will be in their best interests to do so.

Remember this scheme is to try to change certain passengers' habits in purchasing short tickets upon arrival at terminal stations excess offices. Short of barriering these stations from the start of service right though to the last trains what more can the TOCs do?

 

[Tibbs]

Remember the leaflet is the passengers' proof (other proofs, potentially more time consuming to check, may also be available) that they boarded at the said station and, although I know of no legal requirement to keep it, it will be in their best interests to do so.

Are the customers told the reason why they're given the leaflets?

 

[Starmill]

It happens at Bache when going into Chester too.

You buy or show a ticket you already have to the Inspector before you can get on the train, and they give you a slip/leaflet about producing it when you get off in aid of reducing fare evasion.

I guess if you just showed a Bache-Chester ticket at Chester they would be suspicious that you had not actually got on there.

You might not be able to force somebody to take the leaflet/slip, but it is in their best interest too, because it saves the hassle of being questioned or under suspicion, when you try to leave! I would expect the rules allow staff to ask questions about your journey!

I notice Byelaw 18-2 requires you to produce "verification of validity", so I imagine these leaflets are the "verification".

WHAT. So passengers who've actually bought tickets, at Bache are forced to show the leaflets as well as their obviously valid ticket?

That's utterly ridiculous. Should I be made to feel like I've got to prove I'm not a faredodger because I happen to board at the last stop before a major terminus? As I do, every morning!



I think we all understand why the vouchers are given out - we rather wouldn't be having this conversation if not. Don't be so patronising as to suggest anyone thinks that fare evasion from the last stop is the problem. I know it's not Edge Hill's passengers that they're cracking down on. The point is, if they were to shelve the stupid vouchers and sell EVERYONE a ticket who boards at Edge Hill, the guard and staff at the terminus, in this case Lime St, could reasonably refuse to sell anyone a ticket from Edge Hill - et voila, anyone who asks for one needs questioning.

 

[supervalkoinen]

It happens at Bache when going into Chester too.

You buy or show a ticket you already have to the Inspector before you can get on the train, and they give you a slip/leaflet about producing it when you get off in aid of reducing fare evasion.

I guess if you just showed a Bache-Chester ticket at Chester they would be suspicious that you had not actually got on there.

You might not be able to force somebody to take the leaflet/slip, but it is in their best interest too, because it saves the hassle of being questioned or under suspicion, when you try to leave! I would expect the rules allow staff to ask questions about your journey!

I notice Byelaw 18-2 requires you to produce "verification of validity", so I imagine these leaflets are the "verification".

I have to say that in 27 years of using Bache I've never seen an inspector handing out leaflets on the Chester-bound platform.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but given that there is a ticket machine on the opposite platform which sells Bache-Chester tickets, why should it happen?

 

[mrscherry]

People are asking me so many questions I feel like I'm being interrogated for a murder. I made a mistake in throwing my ticket away, people make mistakes we are only human after all. I didn't realise I would need to hang on to this ticket if 1) I wouldn't be exiting edge hill station and 2) the conductor on my journey had seen the ticket.

I'm just a regular person who catches the train all the time, I have never been in trouble with the law, I'm not a bad person and I didn't have any bad intentions. Like many people I'm aware I can purchase a ticket on the train or at my destination of arrival. This is all I have ever known and never once thought there was a problem with that...

So frustrated and stressed out at what could become of this, really don't want a criminal record

 

[GadgetMan]

People are asking me so many questions I feel like I'm being interrogated for a murder. I made a mistake in throwing my ticket away, people make mistakes we are only human after all. I didn't realise I would need to hang on to this ticket if 1) I wouldn't be exiting edge hill station and 2) the conductor on my journey had seen the ticket.

I'm just a regular person who catches the train all the time, I have never been in trouble with the law, I'm not a bad person and I didn't have any bad intentions. Like many people I'm aware I can purchase a ticket on the train or at my destination of arrival. This is all I have ever known and never once thought there was a problem with that...

So frustrated and stressed out at what could become of this, really don't want a criminal record

You came on a public forum and posted YOUR version of events. We have no reason to think your lying, we also have no reason to think you're being honest.

If you come on a public forum looking for advice/comments, then you have to be willing to listen to those comments whether you agree with them or not.

You've made your own case look weak by posting random tickets averaging at around 1.5 tickets a month. For someone who travels on a train 8 times a week that is not very convincing. Putting my revenue protection hat on, I suspect (and that's just my opinion) there may be other tickets you have in your possession you've not disclosed from Edgehill. The tickets you have presented in that picture also belong to more than one passenger, so at best only some of them are your previous tickets, and at worst none of them are. But there is no way they are all your tickets that you have travelled on.

Anybody who looks at that picture closely will more than likely draw the same conclusion as there are some details that don't add up.

Calm down and stop blasting out on other posters on this forum for asking some basic and obvious questions.

 

[Swirlz]

I have to say that in 27 years of using Bache I've never seen an inspector handing out leaflets on the Chester-bound platform.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but given that there is a ticket machine on the opposite platform which sells Bache-Chester tickets, why should it happen?

Twice I've used it, (on a Sunday morning), heading towards Hooton and plain clothes police or inspectors were giving out little credit card size cards titled WARNING and explaining about revenue protection. On the second time I explained I hadn't needed it/hadn't been checked, and they said they are for people going to Chester.

This was mid-2011.

The other thing I have experienced (once), is the entire Platform 7B being sealed off with temporary barriers with Arriva and Merseyrail staff checking tickets.