Stockport - Stalybridge return

[igloo]

Hi all,

I see that from December the Stockport - Stalybridge parliamentary train leaves at a more leisurely 10:13, and have been plotting finally getting around to making the trip. Depending on the weather I may walk down the canal to Guidebridge, then either way a train to Manchester Piccadilly, spend some time in Manchester, and then train back to Stockport.

It looks like there isn't a return ticket that allows this (NRE suggests a 20.50 South Pennines Day Ranger!), leaving 2*3.10 anytime day singles looking like the cheapest way to do it (allows BoJ as far as I can see).

But the odd thing is that even if I walk part way to Guidebridge, it seems that I still want to get a 3.10 Stalybridge - Stockport anytime day single. The cheapest ticket from Guidebridge is a 3.50 less-flexible (although not in a way that matters for this trip) Off-Peak Day Single.

I can't see anything wrong with the above reasoning, but I'm always a little nervous when things seem so bizarre. I haven't missed anything, have I?


Thanks
Ian

 

[table38]

There was some debate on here as to whether a TfGM Day Ranger was valid. Stockport to Guide Bridge isn't shown on the map, but you can travel from Stockport to Guide Bridge via Piccadilly with a Day Ranger, so why wouldn't a direct train be valid?

YMMV, as we used to say

 

[igloo]

Thanks, I think I'll drop Northern a mail and ask.

If I understand correctly it's valid on trams too, so may be worthwhile regardless.


Thanks
Ian

 

[telstarbox]

I imagine it's not shown on the GMPTE map because of the weekly service (to avoid confusing passengers) rather than because it's not valid. The guard on the service would almost certainly accept the Day Ranger in any case.

 

[furryfeet]

The day ranger must be valid since the journey is between two stations in greater manchester.
Even a cheap day return from stockport to stalybridge will be valid - since the service is only one way, there is an official easement permitting travel via manchester piccadilly in the opposite direction.

 

[craigwilson]

The day ranger must be valid since the journey is between two stations in greater manchester.
Even a cheap day return from stockport to stalybridge will be valid - since the service is only one way, there is an official easement permitting travel via manchester piccadilly in the opposite direction.

Indeed

Source: http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/easements.pdf

Easement 36

Journeys from Stockport to Stalybridge may go via Manchester. Journeys
via Stockport and Stalybridge may go via Manchester. These easements
apply in both directions.

So as furryfeet says, a Stockport - Stalybridge Off Peak Day Return (£3.60) will be perfectly fine for what you're wanting to do.

 

[igloo]

Oh, I hadn't actually read the routing on the ticket properly. I'd just assumed that it was for a particular TOC (although if I had read it, I'm not sure I would have understood it!). And indeed RedSpottedHanky thinks the 3.60 return is valid on that service.

Although it looks like if I then take a tram, e.g. to Deansgate, then I might as well just get the 4.60 ranger.


Thanks
Ian

 

[kieron]

So as furryfeet says, a Stockport - Stalybridge Off Peak Day Return (£3.60) will be perfectly fine for what you're wanting to do.

Especially when the route through Manchester is the shortest route shown in the National Rail Timetable, and the one through Denton is not as far.

 

[gnolife]

Oh, I hadn't actually read the routing on the ticket properly. I'd just assumed that it was for a particular TOC (although if I had read it, I'm not sure I would have understood it!). And indeed RedSpottedHanky thinks the 3.60 return is valid on that service.

Although it looks like if I then take a tram, e.g. to Deansgate, then I might as well just get the 4.60 ranger.


Thanks
Ian

The 3.60 Return ticket is valid on the Metrolink in the City Zone (Victoria - Deansgate, including the Piccadilly branch)

 

[igloo]

The 3.60 Return ticket is valid on the Metrolink in the City Zone (Victoria - Deansgate, including the Piccadilly branch)

Hmm, are you sure?

I'm getting very confused now. If I had bought e.g. a Stockport - Manchester return, then I'm confident that you'd be right, based on http://www.tfgm.com/Corporate/Pages/Freedom-of-the-city.aspx (although how one can tell if you would get a ticket to "Manchester CTLZ" I am unsure; presumably all tickets from suitable stations would get that destination?).

But that presumably wouldn't allow Stockport - StalyBridge - Manchester for the outward journey.

A Stockport - StalyBridge day return would have route METROLINK (GM). I would expect this to mean that a tram can be taken between 2 stations on that journey. Presumably to allow something like:

• Stockport - Manchester (Piccadilly) by train
• Manchester (Piccadilly) - Manchester (Victoria) by tram
• Manchester (Victoria) - Stalybridge by train

(in fact, to me it's not clear that making the journey the obvious way, without using the tram, is technically permitted. But I assume that it is intended to be).

But Deansgate is in the wrong direction, and can't take you to Stalybridge without doubling back, as far as I can see. Does it really mean one can use whatever trams one likes (within the central zone?)? Do you know of an authoritative reference saying so? Or is there somewhere public that I can look up exactly what a given routing means?


Thanks
Ian
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was some debate on here as to whether a TfGM Day Ranger was valid. Stockport to Guide Bridge isn't shown on the map, but you can travel from Stockport to Guide Bridge via Piccadilly with a Day Ranger, so why wouldn't a direct train be valid?

YMMV, as we used to say

I just got a reply from Northern saying that it's fine:

I have looked at the map and this journey will be fine.

This rail service is operated once a week to keep part of the line open.

If you have access to the internet the map on national rail shows both
destinations.

(to clarify, it's using the ranger on the parliamentary service that they confirmed as fine; I didn't ask them about using trams with a return).

 

[island]

The day ranger must be valid since the journey is between two stations in greater manchester.
Even a cheap day return from stockport to stalybridge will be valid - since the service is only one way, there is an official easement permitting travel via manchester piccadilly in the opposite direction.

I don't know if I agree with that logic (but I agree with the outcome). What about Warrington to Wigan?

 

[craigwilson]

...to me it's not clear that making the journey the obvious way, without using the tram, is technically permitted.

You mean by walking/catching the free city centre bus? I fail to see why it wouldn't be permitted - in the same way that you don't have to use the tube to make a cross-London connection - you can always walk it (St Pancras to Euston being a fine example of this).

 

[igloo]

You mean by walking/catching the free city centre bus?

No, I mean

• Train Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly
• Train Manchester Piccadilly - Stalybridge

I don't think the second leg can be made on a route that uses Metrolink without doubling back.

After all, if I have a "via Reading" ticket then I can't take a shorter route that doesn't go via Reading, so it is not obvious to me that technically it is permitted to take a shorter route that doesn't use Metrolink with a "METROLINK (GM)" ticket.

But I can't believe that that is what is intended, and the various online booking engines agree.

I fail to see why it wouldn't be permitted - in the same way that you don't have to use the tube to make a cross-London connection

I think most such tickets don't have route "UNDERGROUND". For those that do, walking instead would be allowed by BoJ rules in most cases, I imagine, and you would still be following a route that used the underground.

(if any tickets actually have such a route. I think I remember seeing "NOT UNDERGROUND", but I'm not sure about "UNDERGROUND".)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

According to the Manual, 'Rte Metrolink (GM)' is put on tickets for which journeys require the use of Metrolink in the city centre. Indeed, Stockport-Stalybridge has both 'Any Permitted' and 'Metrolink (GM)' fares, while a journey like Bolton-Stalybridge only has 'Any Permitted'.

I don't believe the journey planners are sufficiently well programmed to decide which route is or is not valid where there is a choice between these two ticket routeings, but then I don't believe anyone would actually have a problem using a 'Metrolink (GM)' ticket on a route that does not use Metrolink services.

 

[craigwilson]

No, I mean

• Train Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly
• Train Manchester Piccadilly - Stalybridge

Sorry, my misundstanding!!

I don't think the second leg can be made on a route that uses Metrolink without doubling back.

After all, if I have a "via Reading" ticket then I can't take a shorter route that doesn't go via Reading, so it is not obvious to me that technically it is permitted to take a shorter route that doesn't use Metrolink with a "METROLINK (GM)" ticket.

But you can travel via Denton on the same ticket (valid of course as it's the direct train) - that's a shorter route that doesn't use Metrolink.

By my logic, changing at Piccadilly should present no problems as the easement just says "via Manchester" - it doesn't limit you to one of Piccadilly or Victoria.

(if any tickets actually have such a route. I think I remember seeing "NOT UNDERGROUND", but I'm not sure about "UNDERGROUND".)

They wouldn't have route UNDERGROUND but they would have a dagger symbol next to the ANY PERMITTED to indicate that cross-London transfers via LU are allowed.

 

[igloo]

But you can travel via Denton on the same ticket (valid of course as it's the direct train)

Direct trains aren't valid if they don't meet the route requirements, are they?

e.g. I couldn't take a direct train (or a shortest distance route) with a ticket with route "VIA READING" if it didn't go via Reading (or with a ticket with route "NOT VIA READING" ticket if it did go via Reading) could I?

 

[Roverman]

I wonder if we all catch a train there if we could get them to bump it up from Parliamentary status!

 

[craigwilson]

Direct trains aren't valid if they don't meet the route requirements, are they?

e.g. I couldn't take a direct train (or a shortest distance route) with a ticket with route "VIA READING" if it didn't go via Reading (or with a ticket with route "NOT VIA READING" ticket if it did go via Reading) could I?

Well, quite, but in such cases there's usually a different route/an "ANY PERMITTED" route that can be bought, or the route specific ticket excessed to.

For Stockport-Stalybridge, BRFares says that the only route available on most tickets, and the season tickets is the METROLINK(GM) routing. I'd agree with hairyhandedfool's analysis

I don't believe anyone would actually have a problem using a 'Metrolink (GM)' ticket on a route that does not use Metrolink services

I think that METROLINK(GM) is designed to enable Metrolink use, not mandate it.

 

[34D]

Direct trains aren't valid if they don't meet the route requirements, are they?

e.g. I couldn't take a direct train (or a shortest distance route) with a ticket with route "VIA READING" if it didn't go via Reading (or with a ticket with route "NOT VIA READING" ticket if it did go via Reading) could I?

I believe that you could for a direct train, but am less sure about the shortest route. Can anyone think of a practical example where this could be looked into?

Regarding the opening post; there is nothing at all wrong with buying a stockport-stalybridge return, going stockport-stalybridge direct, then walking to guide bridge and going guide bridge-piccadilly-stockport.

 

[igloo]

I believe that you could for a direct train, but am less sure about the shortest route. Can anyone think of a practical example where this could be looked into?

Are you sure? Have you got a reference for that?

To make it concrete, this means that on Tuesday December 11th 2012, I could buy a 10.60 "VIA HARROGATE" York - Leeds CDS (valid on the 13:11 service arriving 14:22), and use it on the direct 13:26 service arriving 13:52 (via Micklefield)?

NRE, RSH and my intuition all disagree.


Thanks
Ian

 

[Eagle]

I believe that you could for a direct train, but am less sure about the shortest route. Can anyone think of a practical example where this could be looked into?

Obviously you can't.

London Terminals to Birmingham Stations, route Via High Wycombe: can I go via Milton Keynes instead simply because it's a direct train? Of course not.

 

[34D]

Are you sure? Have you got a reference for that?

I'm not and I haven't. I only said "I believe" rather than "I am 100% right that...."

Anyway I'm wrong:

From section A:

"WHEN TO USE THE NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE
Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual. You only need refer to the Routeing Guide when a customer is not using an advertised through train or the shortest route. A through train is advertised in the passenger railway timetable as a direct service which offers travel between a customer’s origin station and final destination, as printed on the ticket for the journey being made. This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey. The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable."

Sorry

What I was thinking of was a strange interpretation of NRCOC clause 13:

"13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket.
(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b) above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.
(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains."

This strange interpretation would draw on the fact that 13c refers to aii, aiii and b BUT NOT ai (ie not through trains) and that 13d is (or could) be intended to apply to the subset in 13c, coupled with the fact that for direct trains and shortest route you don't need to refer to the routeing guide at all.

Can anyone else interpret this in the same way as I have?

 

[igloo]

What I was thinking of was a strange interpretation of NRCOC clause 13:

"13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide (details as to how you can obtain this information will be available when you buy your ticket).
(b) If you are using a Zonal Ticket you may travel in trains which take any route within the zone or zones shown on the ticket.
(c) Together, the routes referred to in (a) (ii), (a) (iii) and (b) above are the “permitted routes”.
(d) The use of some tickets may be restricted to trains which take:
(i) routes passing through, or avoiding, particular locations; or
(ii) the most direct route.
These restrictions will be shown on the ticket."

Oh, that is a bit bizarre. A literal reading would suggest that (assuming (d) does apply to through trains) an "ANY PERMITTED" ticket cannot be used on a through train, as such a train is not a permitted route.

(in the rare cases where the route is not permitted for other reasons, at least)

 

[Eagle]

Oh, that is a bit bizarre. A literal reading would suggest that (assuming (d) does apply to through trains) an "ANY PERMITTED" ticket cannot be used on a through train, as such a train is not a permitted route.

(in the rare cases where the route is not permitted for other reasons, at least)

Birmingham to Warrington via Wrexham springs to mind as a through train on a route not allowed by the RG.

 

[igloo]

If I had bought e.g. a Stockport - Manchester return, [...]

But that presumably wouldn't allow Stockport - StalyBridge - Manchester for the outward journey.

Actually, is that true? According to my (slightly out of date) complete timetable PDF,

Table 39 (p629) says:

• 140 3/4 Stalybridge
• 148 1/4 Manchester Piccadilly

so 7.5 miles.

Table 84 (p1651) says:

• 31 3/4 Stockport
• 37 3/4 Manchester Piccadilly

so 6 miles.

There is no mileage given for Stockport - Stalybridge. So is that counted as 0, like (IIRC) cross-London transfers? In which case, Stockport - StalyBridge - Manchester would be within 3 miles of the shortest route.

Sigh, the more I think about this, the less I understand any of it.

 

[telstarbox]

For what it's worth, Railmiles gives 8mi 13ch for the direct route and 13mi 30ch for the route via Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[johnnychips]

Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual

Could I therefore get some particular through trains from Donny to Retford or Gainsborough LR or Lincoln even though they go round all the houses via Sheffield at no extra cost? Or is there a negative easement I haven't seen?

 

[Crossover]

Could I therefore get some particular through trains between Donny to Retford or Gainsborough LR or Lincoln even though they go round all the houses via Sheffield at no extra cost? Or is there a negative easement I haven't seen?

I had wondered similar for the West Yorkshire Grand Tour - not looked if there are negative easements preventing it, but Wakefield Westgate to Leeds via all the houses was what I was thinking of

 

[island]

For what it's worth, Railmiles gives 8mi 13ch for the direct route and 13mi 30ch for the route via Manchester Piccadilly.

The NRT is the definitive source however!

 

[johnnychips]

For what it's worth, Railmiles gives 8mi 13ch for the direct route and 13mi 30ch for the route via Manchester Piccadilly.

I love that we're still using 'chains' in the 21st Century. Is that 22 yards? Or is it a rod, pole or perch? I don't even remember doing that at Primary school and I'm rather old - my dad taught it me. (And I haven't remembered that well either).

Apologies to younger posters for a trip down memory lane.