Manchester Metrolink master thread

[northwichcat]

Also, I wonder if they'll remove current airport trains as a result. Does anyone know?

The Northern Hub includes plans for capacity improvements at Slade Lane Junction to allow up to 2 additional express Airport trains per hour to Victoria and beyond via the Ordsall Chord.

If that line gets to maximum capacity again by 2019 then for the 2019-2024 CP the option for the Airport spur to be extended to the Mid-Cheshire line will be looked at by Network Rail which will allow through trains without a reversal such as Liverpool/North Wales-Manchester Airport-Manchester-Yorkshire.

 

[telstarbox]

Very interesting! When they open the metrolink line to the airport, how long is that journey gonna take? 40 mins?! It's currently 20mins (including usual stops) from Piccadilly. Also, I wonder if they'll remove current airport trains as a result. Does anyone know?

It won't happen, as nearly all the Manchester Airport trains start/terminate outside Manchester anyway. The Metrolink line to the Airport is primarily to allow workers to get there and to improve transport to Wythenshawe.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Why would they do that? I can't imagine anyone has even considered withdrawing heavy rail services from Manchester Airport!

I didn't mean removing all heavy rail services from MAN, silly.

 

[transmanche]

I didn't mean removing all heavy rail services from MAN, silly.

Well that is what you said!

Also, I wonder if they'll remove current airport trains as a result.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Well that is what you said!

But similarly I didn't say "all"

 

[transmanche]

But similarly I didn't say "all"

And neither did you say "some"!

 

[VideozVideoz]

And neither did you say "some"!

Ok, open to interpretation but shouldn't common sense prevail? =P

 

[familyguy99]

Here are two picture of tram crossing road on A62 Oldham way heading to Shaw on ghost service and PIDS at Freehold stop saying Shaw & Crompton on them.

Tram crossing A62 Oldham way


Two Metrolink trams crossing Oldham way

Tram at Shaw


Metrolink tram at Shaw & Crompton

PIDS at Freehold saying Shaw on them


PIDS at Freehold Metrolink stop

More picture of tram at Mumps and shaw on my flickr homepage.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metrolink_work/

 

[transmanche]

Ok, open to interpretation but shouldn't common sense prevail? =P

Commonsense would to be to say what you actually mean. Not saying something else and then calling people "silly" for not being psychic.

 

[VideozVideoz]

Commonsense would to be to say what you actually mean. Not saying something else and then calling people "silly" for not being psychic.

Well you were being silly. Not everyone is as rigid as you and im sure most people wouldn't think I meant remove all airport services! I don't think everything needs spelling out precisely just so Transmanche doesn't misinterpret it

 

[telstarbox]

Leave it.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I just wish they would get there backside in gear and sort out the junction between ashton old and new roads. I have no choice I have to drive but am sick to death of the chaos caused by the works around that area.

 

[martin2345uk]

To quote a poster from SSC:

And the new Metrolink timing from Shaw to Victoria, with eight extra stops, is only five minutes more than the previous 'fast' service, which called only at ShawMumpsVictoria

So combined with the fact that ultimately the trams will run every 6 minutes, and they serve more communities on the route, it's not so bad. Of course there'll be people who miss the heavy rail service but I think people should give the trams a chance. Now Metrolink just need to work on reliability!

 

[northwichcat]

So combined with the fact that ultimately the trams will run every 6 minutes, and they serve more communities on the route, it's not so bad. Of course there'll be people who miss the heavy rail service but I think people should give the trams a chance. Now Metrolink just need to work on reliability!

As with the other Metrolink lines the worst hit will be :
* Students (who can't railcard discounts on Metrolink)
* Over 60s from outside the Greater Manchester area (again no railcard discounts)
* People from the local area who travel beyond Greater Manchester to other heavy rail destinations like Blackpool, Liverpool etc. who see the price rocket as they have to purchase 2 tickets.
* People who travel with luggage or bikes.

Although, the Oldham line conversion will have more benefits in total than the Altrincham line conversion:
* Oldham wasn't already electrified.
* The heavy rail service was less frequent than the 1980s service on the Altrincham line.
* The heavy rail stock used on the Oldham Loop was mainly the two types of DMU people would most like to see withdrawn (142s and 150s.)

 

[Ivo]

What was the pre-Metrolink frequency on the Altrincham line? Better still, can anyone provide a timetable for this please?

 

[theblackwatch]

What was the pre-Metrolink frequency on the Altrincham line? Better still, can anyone provide a timetable for this please?

I've dug out the 'bible' for October 1990-May 1991 (the line closed to BR services in December 1991), and it shows a 15 minute frequency service on weekdays and Saturdays, the general pattern being:
xx.10 to Alderley Edge (via Styal)
xx.25 to Alderley Edge (via Stockport)
xx.40 to Wilmslow (via Styal)
xx.55 to Crewe (via Stockport)

On Sundays it was roughly a 30 min service but not starting till the afternoon.

 

[185]

* Over 60s from outside the Greater Manchester area (again no railcard discounts)

Agree to some extent, but one thing that is totally underpublicised is the £5 Wayfarer, great value for those holding English Nat Concession cards. Problem is, where do they buy them? Obviously we know, but they don't.

My view is they should at least be offered off-peak pensioner/disabled concession 50% fares on the machines as things used to be.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I took one of the first trams to Oldham when the line opened. The landlady of a recommended pub was overheard telling a regular - "They're slower, more expensive and no toilets, those trams, what's the point!"

I see that credence to the word of a landlady of a public house is now to be one of the authorised voices of comment upon the Manchester Metrolink system...hock:

From this landlady's deep knowledge of local transport matters, she did not state any views on the existing new stops at Monsall, Central Park or South Chadderton which were not previously served by the heavy rail service nor did she make any comment upon the line that will eventually be traversing through the town centre of Oldham.

As a regular of the area, I assume she realises how long it takes to walk from Oldham Mumps to the main shopping centre around The Spindles complex (all uphill!!!)

 

[neilmc]

Last week I needed to go to Newton Heath in the evening (not to bunk the depot there!!) from South Manchester. I could have caught a First bus from the centre of Manchester with a FirstNight ticket costing £4.00 but what I did was drive to St Werburgh's Road and get an off-peak Metrolink return ticket for £3.40 which I thought was very reasonable; it meant I didn't have to walk in the city centre, and at every 12 minutes a better frequency that was ever given on the BR service.

 

[northwichcat]

Agree to some extent, but one thing that is totally underpublicised is the £5 Wayfarer, great value for those holding English Nat Concession cards. Problem is, where do they buy them? Obviously we know, but they don't.

My view is they should at least be offered off-peak pensioner/disabled concession 50% fares on the machines as things used to be.

The Wayfarer is not a solution for all over 60s journeys from outside GM.

Example:

Cheapest railcard discounted London-Rochdale advance single £9.25
Cheapest railcard discounted London-Manchester advance single £8.25

So £1 extra for the Manchester-Rochdale leg and would have been the same for Oldham prior to Metrolink conversion. Now it's £2.50 extra for Metrolink to Oldham.

Both the Merseytravel and TfGM tickets need to be put on to the online rail booking sites so that people from outside the area are aware of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've dug out the 'bible' for October 1990-May 1991 (the line closed to BR services in December 1991), and it shows a 15 minute frequency service on weekdays and Saturdays, the general pattern being:
xx.10 to Alderley Edge (via Styal)
xx.25 to Alderley Edge (via Stockport)
xx.40 to Wilmslow (via Styal)
xx.55 to Crewe (via Stockport)

On Sundays it was roughly a 30 min service but not starting till the afternoon.

Can you find a late 1980s timetable? I think the service on the Sale line started to be reduced from 1989 onwards when Chester services were diverted.

An historic peak service was more frequent than Metrolink is now (as well as providing more capacity through trains being longer than trams):
07:45 Altrincham-Manchester (all stops)
07:49 Altrincham-Manchester (all stops)
07:54 Altrincham-Manchester (most stops)
08:00 Sale-Manchester (all stops)
07:58 Altrincham-Manchester (express)
08:00 Altrincham-Manchester (all stops)
08:07 Altrincham-Manchester (all stops)
http://www.timetableworld.com/image_viewer.php?id=7&section_id=1505

In comparison Metrolink runs to the following (plus or minus two minutes to allow trams to be evenly spaced out.)
07:42 Altrincham-Bury
07:48 Altrincham-Piccadilly
07:54 Altrincham-Bury
08:00 Altrincham-Piccadilly
08:06 Altrincham-Bury

 

[snail]

From this landlady's deep knowledge of local transport matters, she did not state any views on the existing new stops at Monsall, Central Park or South Chadderton which were not previously served by the heavy rail service nor did the make any comment upon the line that will eventually be traversing through the town centre of Oldham.

I thought they took around the same time as the trains, despite having more stops to make. The new service to Shaw appears to be timed the same as the initial service to Oldham Mumps.

 

[Class377/5]

The extension to Shaw opened this morning with 3001 doing the first trip.

They even left a double M5000 tram packed at Shaw on the Rochdale platform.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I took the opportunity to make this journey to Shaw and Crompton on Tuesday. What are the new external groundworks that are being constructed outside the Manchester-bound platform at Derker station?

The run seemed to be much quicker than in the first weeks when the line to Oldham Mumps first saw traffic movements.

 

[familyguy99]

I took the opportunity to make this journey to Shaw and Crompton on Tuesday. What are the new external groundworks that are being constructed outside the Manchester-bound platform at Derker station?

The run seemed to be much quicker than in the first weeks when the line to Oldham Mumps first saw traffic movements.

^^ They building a new Car Park (Park and ride) at Derker stop so I think that what u saw and trams are going more faster (normal speed) on Oldham line as it take 20 mins to get from Mumps to Victoria which it take 25 mins when it first opened.

Here some picture of Shaw stop that I took on Monday


3031 at Shaw stop


3027 tram leaving Shaw


posted at Shaw stop


Sign at Shaw & Crompton


Next stop Derker


3059 tram at Shaw


3056 & 3059 couple together

^^ 3056 & 3059 tram is at Shaw stop for doing night-time testing to Rochdale which I believe they did some last night.

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/extension/default.aspx

 

[gingerheid]

Wonderful.

If only Edinburgh could do it like this...

 

[familyguy99]

New Metrolink lines that might be coming to Metrolink systems in 2013.

• East Manchester line: Line to Droylsden should be opening in February 2013 or even on 11th which Metrolink confirm, Also line to Ashton Under Lyne could be opening too in 2013 but more likely by end of 2013 if that happens.
  
• Oldham & Rochdale line: Line from Shaw to Rochdale (Railway station) could be opening in Spring 2013 if testing go ok and we might see Overhead wires all in place in Oldham & Rochdale town centres.
  
• South Manchester line (St Werburgh's Road to East Didsbury): Line to East Didsbury should be opening in Summers 2013 but possible or small changes that it be opening early.

Merry christmas and Happy New Year everyone and I hope 2013 is very good year for everyone too.

 

[Class377/5]

Both Ashton and Didsbury require the TMS system working as Queens Road can't cope but Old Trafford has the equipment.

Unless they introduce something interim....

 

[table38]

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/transport/public_transport/s/1597202_metrolink-tram-bosses-and-signalling-firm-in-court-battle-that-could-cost-greater-manchester-taxpayers-42m

The firm installing Metrolink’s trouble-hit signalling system is trying to claim an extra £42.3m taxpayers’ cash – after a string of embarrassing delays.

Thales Transport and Security was contracted in 2008 to fit the new Tram Management System as part of the £1.4bn ‘Big Bang’ expansion of the network.

The company was promised £22m as part of its deal with Transport for Greater Manchester.

But problems installing the system, which pinpoints the location of trams and controls points and signals, have already caused chaos at MediaCity as well as delaying the opening of new lines to Chorlton and Oldham. Extensions to Rochdale and Droylsden are also months behind schedule.

We can reveal today that Thales is demanding an extra £42.3m payout from TfGM as both sides blame each other for the delays.

 

[PR1Berske]

The following two posts connected to that story come from SkyScraperCity

edit: Reading above.
TfGM are saying Thales arent providing them the reciepts for equipment and other expenses that they are claiming for.
Thales are liable for £36m for delays and expenses if the contract is liquidated (i.e. Thales either voluntarily withdraw or are kicked out) Proceedings have been ongoing in several stages since September when Thales decided it needed extra time and money to complete the contracted work.



Thales gave notification they would be making a claim for extra expenses in 17 May 2012, on 5 July TfGM asked for the reciepts to prove the claim and repeated the request on 12 July and 27 July but Thales were not forthcoming. Thales claims the extra expenses came about due to 'global changes' i.e changing specification requests while TfGM says its because of faulty design and reliability on Thales part.
On 9th October shortly after Thales submitted its claim for extra expenses there was a meeting where TfGM again requested the documentation, the next day a letter was recieved from Thales basically refusing.
On 17th October TfGM wrote a letter to Thales basically threatening them and saying they hadnt provided the documentation and saying Thales was trying to railroad them into going to the Independent auditor without the evidence TfGM had requested.
on 19th October TfGM recived a letter from Thales solictors which failed to address the concerns.
On 22nd Octover TfGM solictors again sent a request for the documentation.
On 1st September TfGM recieved a notice from Thales that they were taking them to independent arbitration
on 2nd September TfGM responded that they hadnt recieved enough time to analyse the claim before going to arbitration
meanwhile on 23 October Thales refered a case for the indepedent arbiter titled 'Heavy Rail points' both parties believe the adjudicators decision in November was a win for them and neither are disputing the adjudicators finding.
On 9th November TfGM issued a court summons to Thales over the failure to supply documentation the court on 13 November with some amendments 19th November issued deadlines for the parties to exchange documentation, the court applauds both parties for complying promptly with these court deadlines.

Mostly Thales is quibbling over exactly what documentation can be defined as 'records' and whether TfGM really need to see it or not but the court seems to be favouring TfGM when interpreting these details. The fine on Thales for failure to meet contractual obligations is between £1,250 and £35,000 per day though liability was capped at a figure which isnt given. Court rules in TfGM favour that the meaning of 'audit' goes beyon purely financial records. Mentions Thales have already been granted an extension on one short time issue (likely aforementioned Heavy Rail Points adjudication).

Thales created a team called 'Tiger Team' to report back to senior management why the contract was overbudget and behind schedule, at least one detailed technical report was produced for the Thales senior management in July 2011 and TfGM want to see it and the judge rules TfGM should see it. The court rules that Thales have to provide the reports by its auditors Ernst and Young though TfGM agrees they can be suitably redacted. The judge reserves judgement on a TfGM request for Thales workbooks of labour hours and their costs saying it could be commercially sensitive. Court agrees with Thales that a list of all subcontractor and purchase orders made by Thales was requested late by TfGM and Thales isnt in breach but makes a pre-emptive ruling that Thales has no excuse not to provide them. TfGM notes that four Thales project directors and four directors have left the company in a relativley short timescale and could impact Thales management of the contract, court rules in Thales favour that details of these departures dont need to be provided. Court Rules TfGM must be given Thales legal advice sought over the contract delays and its potential liabilitys so long as it doesnt break client privilige. Court rules in Thales favour that records of the quality of work carried out could be priviliged as to regards staff performance/cost of thales.

So to sum up court pretty much comes down in TfGM favour on almost every issue of contention.

Re the legal wrangling, as I understand it, Thales (in their MPT incarnation) have already fleeced TfGM in the courts to the tune of a few million.
If I understand correctly, we've got the ludicrous situation where Thales (MPT) are claiming against TfGM for delays/expense caused (at least in part) by Thales (Thales) not performing/co-operating, whilst at the same time Thales (Thales) are doing much the same back. TfGM seem to be sitting in the middle, potentially taking punches from both sides at once.
I heard that the last court case (MPT vs TfGM) resulted in a win for MPT - but that this was being appealed.

And it's worth seeing this balanced front page from the MEN

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do not forget it was the Manchester Evening News who also carried a similarly sensationalised front-page banner of headline of..

20 DEAD

during the Strangeways prison riots, without checking the validity of this....which was not the case at all and a complete fallacy. Anything that sells papers by such visual imagery does not tend to let the truth get in the way of a so-called "good story".

They say "publish and be damned"...I would take that to its ultimate extreme and see the Manchester Evening News be damned for evermore...

Bring back the Manchester Evening Chronicle...