Virgin Trains proposed Shrophire - Euston services

[Gareth Marston]

I've got this from the Shrewsbury-Chester Rail user Association newsletter who say they were given it from Owen Pattinson MP for North Shropshire and Cabinet Member, its supposedly what Virgin were going to run after Wrexham- Saltney Jnc is partly redoubled in 2015 if they had won the west coast franchise competition.

Given that there's pressure on Virgin to cough something up between Shrewsbury and London for Dec 13 this may give some clues as to what.

0631 Shrewsbury- Euston via BNS
0758 Shrewsbury -Euston via Wrexham
1003 Euston- Euston via Shrewsbury then Wrexham
1210 Euston -Euston via Wrexham then Shrewsbury
1810 Euston -Shrewsbury via Wrexham
1843 Euston- Shrewsbury via BNS



Euston - 1210 1810
Chester - 1442 2014
Wrexham - 1452 2033
Shrewsbury 0631 1540 2116
Birmingham 0725 1633 -
Euston 0910 1837 -

Euston - 1003 1843
Birmingham - 1148 2035
Shrewsbury 0758 1241 2128
Wrexham 0833 1327
Chester 0852 1352
Euston 1058 1558

The 2 21xx arrivals at Salop would join up and go to Crewe via Whitchurch.

This would have given Wrexham 3 trains a day to/ from London and Shrewsbury 4 a day.

 

[headshot119]

I've got this from the Shrewsbury-Chester Rail user Association newsletter who say they were given it from Owen Pattinson MP for North Shropshire and Cabinet Member, its supposedly what Virgin were going to run after Wrexham- Saltney Jnc is partly redoubled in 2015 if they had won the west coast franchise competition.

Given that there's pressure on Virgin to cough something up between Shrewsbury and London for Dec 13 this may give some clues as to what.


0631 Shrewsbury- Euston via BNS
0758 Shrewsbury -Euston via Wrexham
1003 Euston- Euston via Shrewsbury then Wrexham
1210 Euston -Euston via Wrexham then Shrewsbury
1810 Euston -Shrewsbury via Wrexham
1843 Euston- Shrewsbury via BNS

Shrewsbury - Euston bia Barnes?

The 07:58 would get to Chester around 08:52, I was expecting them to join with a Chester - Euston service. Not run separately.

Euston - 1210 1810
Chester - 1442 2014
Wrexham - 1452 2033
Shrewsbury 0631 1540 2116
Birmingham 0725 1633 -
Euston 0910 1837 -

Euston - 1003 1843
Birmingham - 1148 2035
Shrewsbury 0758 1241 2128
Wrexham 0833 1327
Chester 0852 1352
Euston 1058 1558

The 2 21xx arrivals at Salop would join up and go to Crewe via Whitchurch.

This would have given Wrexham 3 trains a day to/ from London and Shrewsbury 4 a day.

Nice to see Wrexham gets a few more trains, not sure how well they will fair mind.

 

[The Planner]

They look incredibly long journies for New St to Euston and v.v.

 

[Nym]

0631 Shrewsbury- Euston via BNS
0758 Shrewsbury -Euston via Wrexham
1003 Euston- Euston via Shrewsbury then Wrexham
1210 Euston -Euston via Wrexham then Shrewsbury
1810 Euston -Shrewsbury via Wrexham
1843 Euston- Shrewsbury via BNS

Euston       -         1210     1810
Chester      -         1442     2014
Wrexham      -         1452     2033  
Shrewsbury   0631      1540     2116
Birmingham   0725      1633      -
Euston       0910      1837      -

Euston       -         1003     1843
Birmingham   -         1148     2035
Shrewsbury   0758      1241     2128
Wrexham      0833      1327
Chester      0852      1352
Euston       1058      1558

Lets have this in code tags...

And it looks like some reasonable extentions to me, not sure how popular they'll be though.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Does anyone have any idea of the proposed intermediate stops? I would imagine Telford but am unsure as to whether Gobowen and Wellington would also justify being served.

 

[All Line Rover]

Those Shrewsbury timings don't look particularly impressive. They are slower than existing journey opportunities with a change at WVH or BHI. Why should the 18:43 from EUS to BHM take 30 minutes longer than it does currently?

Wrexham does not need any extra through trains. The existing two services a day are very quiet between Wrexham and Chester (although they are well used between Chester and London).

What would be ideal is if Shrewsbury to London services went via Crewe. Theoretically this would offer the fastest journey time but I'm not sure if it would be practical in reality.

 

[calc7]

What would be ideal is if Shrewsbury to London services went via Crewe. Theoretically this would offer the fastest journey time but I'm not sure if it would be practical in reality.

Not a bad idea at all! Journey time would be about 2h10m at a guess. They could be formed of a double Voyager splitting at Crewe: front continues to Chester/North Wales, rear reverses and goes to Shrewsbury via Whitchurch.

 

[Proud Salopian]

A Shrewsbury-Crewe-London service would be nothing short of... EPIC.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Why should the 18:43 from EUS to BHM take 30 minutes longer than it does currently?

Wrexham does not need any extra through trains. The existing two services a day are very quiet between Wrexham and Chester (although they are well used between Chester and London).

What would be ideal is if Shrewsbury to London services went via Crewe. Theoretically this would offer the fastest journey time but I'm not sure if it would be practical in reality.

With regard to the first point, I think that might be a departure time ex-New St to Shrewsbury, perhaps it sits in BHM for 15-20 mins awaiting a path? Can't imagine it would be too greatly appreciated though for planners, luckily it's just after the evening rush / extra services.

I agree re: Wrexham, if I'm honest I'm not sure why the current services exist (dare I suggest it may have been to compete with WSMR?).

I agree again with your third point - you'd need extra Voyagers from somewhere, but if you could attach say 3 extra Voyagers a day to Chester / Holyhead trains, say one each for morning, afternoon and evening, and run it into p12 at Crewe (right side of the station for both lines and no conflict northbound), you would have plentiful time to detatch the rear set and run it to Shrewsbury (IIRC nothing uses p12 off-peak), returning at whatever time from Shrewsbury and attaching to the ex-Chester set before heading south (though it may be a bit trickier as you'd need to cross both the Shrewsbury and Down WCML lines if using p12). It may mean some Chester trains have slightly longer journey times, but I imagine you could easily do Euston-Crewe-Shrewsbury in sub-2h20, probably closer to 2h15.

(All the above shouldn't be taken as me being smart by the way, I'm not saying this with any authority, it's all guesswork and am happy to be corrected.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Edit - Third point is basically what calc7 said!

 

[All Line Rover]

Not a bad idea at all! Journey time would be about 2h10m at a guess. They could be formed of a double Voyager splitting at Crewe: front continues to Chester/North Wales, rear reverses and goes to Shrewsbury via Whitchurch.

If you don't mind risking an unofficial 5 minute connection at Crewe it is currently possible to get from Shrewsbury to London in 2h 18m by travelling on:
[07:46] Shrewsbury to [08:24] Crewe (stopping at Wem, Whitchurch, Nantwich)
[08:29] Crewe to [10:04] London Euston

So 'theoretically' 2h 10m should be more than possible, but if such a service ever ran it would be nice if it could stop at Wem, Whitchurch, Nantwich and Stafford, even if this extended the journey time to around 2h 30m, as to do so would introduce numerous new direct services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree re: Wrexham, if I'm honest I'm not sure why the current services exist (dare I suggest it may have been to compete with WSMR?).

Given that Wrexham has 1tph to Chester run by ATW, taking only 1-2 minutes longer than the VT service, I personally feel it is a pointless waste of capacity. But Virgin might have their reasons.

 

[Lewisham2221]

but if such a service ever ran it would be nice if it could stop at Wem, Whitchurch, Nantwich and Stafford, even if this extended the journey time to around 2h 30m, as to do so would introduce numerous new direct services.

?!?!?

Sorry, I nearly spat my drink all over the keyboard when I read that! Wem, Whitchurch and Nantwich? Ok, so you could maybe justify Nantwich, just, but Wem and Whitchurch? Instead of Telford?

 

[dvboy]

1148 departing BHM is presumably replacing a WVH service, where I assume it will call anyway.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I think that the service be better suited via Birmingham new street and have Chester as an extension to Shrewsbury services, calling at wrexham only

 

[All Line Rover]

?!?!?

Sorry, I nearly spat my drink all over the keyboard when I read that! Wem, Whitchurch and Nantwich? Ok, so you could maybe justify Nantwich, just, but Wem and Whitchurch? Instead of Telford?

Telford probably deserves a direct service but, like Wrexham, any direct service is likely to take longer than changing at Wolverhampton (in the case of Telford) and Chester (in the case of Wrexham)!

Stopping at Wem, Whitchurch and Nantwich increases the journey time by less than 10 minutes. There isn't much demand to/from London but the peak time ATW services are standing room only, so any VT capacity between Shrewsbury and Crewe would be better used than the existing VT capacity between Wrexham and Chester.

 

[barrykas]

I'd hazard a guess that calling points between Birmingham and Wrexham would be similar to the ATW ones, so I'd go with Wolves, Cosford, Telford Central, Wellington (Salop), Shrewsbury, Gobowen, Chirk and Ruabon. Smethwick Galton Bridge is a possibility too.

 

[Rich McLean]

I'd hazard a guess that calling points between Birmingham and Wrexham would be similar to the ATW ones, so I'd go with Wolves, Cosford, Telford Central, Wellington (Salop), Shrewsbury, Gobowen, Chirk and Ruabon. Smethwick Galton Bridge is a possibility too.

I would imagine it may miss out Cosford, does it really need to stop there?

 

[calc7]

If Virgin are going to extend "off the main line", I believe these services need to be:
- fast
- relevant
There is no point running a Shrewsbury/Blackpool "student special" at 11am - that would be a horrendous waste of premium InterCity stock, paths and resources.

A good comparison would be the East Coast "Leeds extensions" - e.g. Harrogate, Bradford and Skipton (as well as Hull and Lincoln if you like). These are often empty after Leeds, and they come and go from London at peak times!

Any journey times would have to offer a reasonable saving over a change at Wolves/Preston/wherever - people are not going to wait around until 6.30 to leave London and not get home until 9pm just because a service is direct. This is particularly pertinent where the connections are frequent (Leeds-Bradford has 6tph across the two routes - no need to wait for the direct EC which sits around in Leeds for a path!)

I really loathe people who entertain suggestions that Virgin would cater for the cheapo student market - please get a sense of economic perspective.

 

[All Line Rover]

I really loathe people who entertain suggestions that Virgin would cater for the cheapo student market - please get a sense of economic perspective.

They already cater for this market through use of the Railcard easement. I agree that there is no need to introduce off-peak extensions that would be little used.

 

[tbtc]

Is this a single Voyager replacing a 390 on the EBW section?

Wrexham to Chester is a market that rail should be looking to improve when the redoubling is over - the competing bus service is every ten minutes or so IIRC - just a shame that there's no "will" to run regular services from Wrexham to Manchester or Liverpool, but the Voyagers will certainly add some capacity as far as Chester!

 

[calc7]

They already cater for this market through use of the Railcard easement. I agree that there is no need to introduce off-peak extensions that would be little used.

Indeed - but that can be explained by the fact that students will most certainly not pay for £100+ Advances/SOSs on the peak services - they are extremely price-sensitive - so you may as well fill up the peak services with them to take pressure off the off-peak services they would otherwise use. Win-win. Revenue loss is minimal and much goodwill is generated.

 

[PR1Berske]

A Shrewsbury-Crewe-London service would be nothing short of... EPIC.

Well it won't be short, that's for sure....

 

[Nym]

I'm kind of wondering if on the boards at Euston it will say something like, "Platform 18 for the xx:xx service to London Euston..."

 

[calc7]

I'm kind of wondering if on the boards at Euston it will say something like, "Platform 18 for the xx:xx service to London Euston..."

And let the abuse of the "direct train" rule commence...

 

[PR1Berske]

I'm kind of wondering if on the boards at Euston it will say something like, "Platform 18 for the xx:xx service to London Euston..."

"Euston Circular"

 

[ushawk]

I'm kind of wondering if on the boards at Euston it will say something like, "Platform 18 for the xx:xx service to London Euston..."

Probably shown as terminating at Shrewsbury via Wrexham.

 

[The Planner]

With regard to the first point, I think that might be a departure time ex-New St to Shrewsbury, perhaps it sits in BHM for 15-20 mins awaiting a path? Can't imagine it would be too greatly appreciated though for planners, luckily it's just after the evening rush / extra services.

No, and the signallers would tell us to get lost too.

 

[Tracky]

A Shrewsbury-Crewe-London service would be nothing short of... EPIC.

In my view that is the only way to run a direct SHR-EUS service as it keeps diesel trains into Euston down to one an hour and the same unit usage as is current on Chester runs.

The trick is working out which trains can be kept to 5 car from Chester to couple to a 5 car from Shrewsbury.

 

[Nym]

In my view that is the only way to run a direct SHR-EUS service as it keeps diesel trains into Euston down to one an hour and the same unit usage as is current on Chester runs.

The trick is working out which trains can be kept to 5 car from Chester to couple to a 5 car from Shrewsbury.

Or just run it as a 15 car service into Euston?

 

[AndyLandy]

Or just run it as a 15 car service into Euston?

Are the platforms at MKC/EUS long enough for 15-car Voyagers? Or would it need SDO?

 

[Tracky]

Or just run it as a 15 car service into Euston?

You'd end up needing more Voyagers!

Arriva could always operate express services between Holyhead and Crewe using 67's and DVTs... Free up some of the Vingin fleet...