HS2 Northern Branches Discussion

[MK Tom]

It's interesting the BBC guys made a comparison with France and Spain, but didn't note how French high speed lines serve far more local communities than HS2 is planned to. Much like MK, Northampton and Coventry in the first phase, there are a lot of places in this phase that will still be reliant on conventional lines, most notably Leicester. Nobody will travel from there to Toton in order to go to London. Even Derby is really too far, and a spur linking into Derby would be included were this a French LGV. I find myself in a real pickle whenever people ask me about HS2, because I strongly support a high speed network for Britain, but I can't ally myself with the routes that have been chosen for HS2. The effort to avoid population centres is really half the problem; there wouldn't be so much local opposition if places like Aylesbury Vale, Warwickshire, Leicestershire and so on were getting tangible benefits from the scheme. (potential but not promised extra conventional trains isn't much of a benefit, and some places don't even get that).

 

[6Gman]

It's interesting the BBC guys made a comparison with France and Spain, but didn't note how French high speed lines serve far more local communities than HS2 is planned to. Much like MK, Northampton and Coventry in the first phase, there are a lot of places in this phase that will still be reliant on conventional lines, most notably Leicester. Nobody will travel from there to Toton in order to go to London. Even Derby is really too far, and a spur linking into Derby would be included were this a French LGV. I find myself in a real pickle whenever people ask me about HS2, because I strongly support a high speed network for Britain, but I can't ally myself with the routes that have been chosen for HS2. The effort to avoid population centres is really half the problem; there wouldn't be so much local opposition if places like Aylesbury Vale, Warwickshire, Leicestershire and so on were getting tangible benefits from the scheme. (potential but not promised extra conventional trains isn't much of a benefit, and some places don't even get that).

Spot on.

My position is that I support a high-speed network.

But not this high-speed 'network' .....

 

[PR1Berske]

From the document:

Further connections onto the existing network will enable passengers in even more
cities across Britain to beneit from HS2. High speed trains will be able to continue
seamlessly on to destinations such as Crewe, Liverpool, Wigan, Preston, York,
Newcastle, Glasgow, Edinburgh and many others.

"Connections to the existing railway would be built at the northern end of each
leg. On the western route, high speed trains would be able to directly serve
destinations such as Wigan, Preston, Blackpool, Lancaster, Penrith, Carlisle,
Glasgow and Edinburgh. From the eastern route, the high speed line would
continue almost as far as York, making it possible for high speed trains to
continue directly to places such as Newcastle, Darlington and Durham.
Further south, HS2 would connect with the West Coast Main Line at Crewe,
meaning key destinations like Liverpool, Runcorn and Crewe would beneit from
direct services. By calling at the key interchange of Crewe HS2 would be easily
accessible for passengers in North Wales and elsewhere in the region. Decisions
on the precise services to use high speed rail lines and maximise the beneits of
capacity on other lines would be taken nearer the date when lines would open, so
that we can be sure to take account of latest developments. We hope people will
share with us their aspirations and ideas for how services could be designed to
meet the needs of the country as a whole. "


And from the "Crewe Guardian"

CREWE will not get a new station along the High Speed Two (HS2) network, but will be served by 225 mph trains via a connection to the existing West Coast Main Line (WCML).

The town has also been chosen to host new depots for infrastructure and maintenance equipment using the western spur of the £32 billion railway, which will split into a Y shaped network to Manchester and Leeds north of Birmingham.

A junction at Basford will enable HS2 trains to continue north through Crewe to serve Liverpool on existing rail lines.

The Government published its preferred route for HS2 this morning.

Chancellor George Osborne said HS2 would be an ‘engine for growth’ in the North and Midlands, creating tens of thousands of jobs across the country.

He acknowledged widespread opposition to the line from communities along its route which face ‘very difficult’ disruption to their lives, but said the economic benefits were ‘pretty compelling’.

The railway line will run adjacent to the path of the WCML through Crewe.

At Walley’s Green, north of Leighton, the line will bear right, bisecting Winsford and Middlewich at Bostock.

 

[MK Tom]

One other thing - why no south-facing connection at Lichfield? So services could operate from Watford/MKC/Northampton/Rugby/Tamworth (and Coventry via Nuneaton) to Nottingham, Leeds and the north east, and enjoy HSL services to Manchester and Scotland?

 

[starrymarkb]

So something like Ashford. Where the high speed line bypasses but trains leaving the line call... (excluding the few E*'s that stop)

Are there going to be Northbound links from Birmingham and the other spurs, or will it be $City-London only?

 

[JamesRowden]

So something like Ashford. Where the high speed line bypasses but trains leaving the line call... (excluding the few E*'s that stop)

Are there going to be Northbound links from Birmingham and the other spurs, or will it be $City-London only?

The Birmingham Airport stop might allow good connections to the Crosscountry services that run via Reading (which could run to/from Heathrow).

 

[si404]

Is there a reason the line seems to completely bypass Stoke et al. (population ~360,000) with no apparent link at all? Or have I missed something?

Crewe's lobby was far more powerful. Despite Stoke's bigger size and better service to London and Manchester, Crewe station has more passengers (especially to London) and Pete Waterman lobbying for it.

Now why couldn't they also put in a triangular junction for Leeds - York route too?

Because the Scotland leg of phase 3 will go up the west coast and a link at Leeds doesn't really do anything before the line is extended (from who knows where) to the NE - services from Leeds to the NE come from Manchester, so terminating them at Leeds doesn't help. Manchester, however, the north facing curve functions as a bypass of the Chat Moss, or the via Bolton route, for Scotland services. Which opens up the possibility of more local services on that NW of Manchester to the Airport axis.

Though looking at the map it seems to be more about depot access for the time being.

I wonder if a Manchester Airport station on HS2 is the best solution. Given the proposed route and location of it to the motorway I wonder if Ashley station should be closed and replaced by a 'North Cheshire Parkway' station that acts as an interchange between local trains and HS2 as well as providing somewhere for the large number of business people in the area to park their cars and catch the HS2 to London.

The rail interchange at Ashley isn't very good and not really worth it. You'd also need a new M56 junction and there's not really room for one in the space between J6 and J7. The Davenport Green station (which could have the Airport branch extended to it en-route to Ashley and the Mid-Cheshire. Plus will have Metrolink) that the published route has no rail link, but both J5 and J6 (though the indicative road layout they show could be better).

(Manchester Airport doesn't really have room for Park & Ride facilities.) You could then have a shuttle rail service between 'North Cheshire Parkway' and Manchester Airport.

There's tons of room at Davenport Green for P&R.

 

[swt_passenger]

The EMA station strikes me as a compromise between Derby and Nottingham -

That's exactly how the command paper explains it IMHO. I don't think anyone has explicitly mentioned yet that it will have platforms on the Derby - Nottingham line as well though - I assume that means a slight diversion of the existing route??

However, isn't your use of the abbreviation 'EMA' above potentially misleading? The DfT are referring to EM 'Hub' - maybe they don't see it as an airport station anyway. IIRC this was also a common misconception about the fairly recent East Midlands Parkway, it was never directly intended as an airport station either...

 

[WestRiding]

Sheffield needs a city centre station! Or none at all. Other wise rail travel will in effect be the same as air travel, where you get dumped at a out of town airport such as Manchester or what ever and then have to travel into the city centre, defeating the object and attractiveness of rail travel. If I buy a ticket to Sheffield, that is where I want to go, not Meadowhall, to then have to fart around with Northern Rail or Supertram. Utter waste of time. And I cant wait for the arguments against HS2 in the Barnsley area, with it been an area of natural beauty........ ahem, Royston Coke Works, Redferns glass works, and a council estate every other mile.

 

[swt_passenger]

One other thing - why no south-facing connection at Lichfield? So services could operate from Watford/MKC/Northampton/Rugby/Tamworth (and Coventry via Nuneaton) to Nottingham, Leeds and the north east, and enjoy HSL services to Manchester and Scotland?

Lichfield is quite a way beyond the junction for the NE leg of the Y, which will be near Water Orton, just beyond the West Midlands 'delta junction'. To do what you suggest would need an extra junction somewhere south east of Tamworth, around the Polesworth area?

Have you perhaps been using one of the distinctly useless maps the mainstream media have come up with in the past, that had the Y junction north of Lichfield, ie hopelessly wrong?

 

[JohnB57]

Sheffield needs a city centre station! Or none at all. Other wise rail travel will in effect be the same as air travel, where you get dumped at a out of town airport such as Manchester or what ever and then have to travel into the city centre, defeating the object and attractiveness of rail travel. If I buy a ticket to Sheffield, that is where I want to go, not Meadowhall, to then have to fart around with Northern Rail or Supertram. Utter waste of time. And I cant wait for the arguments against HS2 in the Barnsley area, with it been an area of natural beauty........ ahem, Royston Coke Works, Redferns glass works, and a council estate every other mile.

So how many people travelling to, say, Sheffield will stay in the city centre and not interchange onto another form of transport? I suggest the overwhelming majority will finish their journey by car, train, bus or tram so efficient interchange is everything and that is best outside the city centre.

I'm still agnostic on the whole thing, but I can accept that HS2 can only be justified through benefits to a wider area. Also, as far as I'm aware, nobody's suggesting that Sheffield should lose its classic services.

 

[MK Tom]

Lichfield is quite a way beyond the junction for the NE leg of the Y, which will be near Water Orton, just beyond the West Midlands 'delta junction'. To do what you suggest would need an extra junction somewhere south east of Tamworth, around the Polesworth area?

Have you perhaps been using one of the distinctly useless maps the mainstream media have come up with in the past, that had the Y junction north of Lichfield, ie hopelessly wrong?

I mean where HS2 meets the WCML between Lichfield and Rugeley. A spur from the WCML south to HS2 north towards Leeds would allow the services I described, bringing HS2's benefits and many new connections to the major stations between Lichfield and Euston, like Tamworth, Coventry, Northampton, MK and Watford. I've just realised that doesn't apply to the Manchester arm, but the benefits of the Leeds arm would still make a huge difference.

The HS2 'network' with its extremely limited stops makes an interesting comparison with the TGV network - http://0.tqn.com/d/gofrance/1/0/o/U/TGV-route-map.JPG - now admittedly a lot of that is on traditional lines, but it still shows how the network is geared to benefit every area it passes through as much as it realistically can.

 

[steamdrivenand]

Can anyone giv e a definite answer re Crewe?

Underground HS2 station or just a tunnel for trains to rush through?

As I posted earlier it looks like it's a tunnel without a station to allow Captive HS trains and Compatibles to and from further north (Preston, Scotland etc) to rush through at full tilt.

However there's a junction planned a mile or so south of Crewe which will allow Compatibles to access and exit to and from the high speed line for services to Liverpool etc. So you'll be able to catch a Compatible from Crewe to London or Birmingham and travel at high speed for all but the first mile or so. Effectively that puts Crewe station on the high speed network, but its not a stop for Captive high speed trains, their only stops in the north west are Manchester Airport and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[pmq11dro]

I wonder what the plans for Sheffield/Meadowhall are?

i) Perhaps the new station should include XC and other Intercity services that currently only stop at Sheffield, so service patterns would be like those for Bristol TM/Parkway where almost everything that stops at one stops at the other too. This would nake sure there are proper connections.

Indeed, every service that calls at Sheffield (except the Nor-Liv services that reverse) could feasibly also serve Meadowhall HS2.

ii) Failing that, there should still be little concern about connectivity to Sheffield Midland/City Centre so long as the Tram-Train goes ahead - the site I'm guessing they'll use for Meadowhall HS2 lies pretty much on the Supertram route. This would also connect Rotherham (and hopefully Doncaster) to the new station.

 

[swt_passenger]

I mean where HS2 meets the WCML between Lichfield and Rugeley. A spur from the WCML south to HS2 north towards Leeds would allow the services I described, bringing HS2's benefits and many new connections to the major stations between Lichfield and Euston, like Tamworth, Coventry, Northampton, MK and Watford. I've just realised that doesn't apply to the Manchester arm, but the benefits of the Leeds arm would still make a huge difference.

I just can't see what you are trying to describe. The NE leg of the Y, towards the East Midlands and Leeds, has already been and gone well before you travel north on the WCML as far as 'between Lichfield and Rugely'.

What you are suggesting still makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[WatcherZero]

Im personally overjoyed, after the weekends releases hinted that the WCML connection may end at Crewe rather than Golborne.

* The Time penalty for diverting close to Crewe rather than Stoke for the Liverpool spur isnt as large as I feared.
* WCML connection only 2.5 miles south of Wigan North Western, even further north than Golborne.
* Rolling stock depot built in my constituency meaning a couple of hundred skilled jobs(and well paid rather than minimum wage ASDA).
* The Manchester Delta is better aligned than previously meaning it will be possible to run services from Wigan to the airport and city centre, in fact for the Manchester Airport-Glasgow services using HS2 rather than Chat Moss could mean a saving for Wigan-Airport of 40 minutes, Glasgow-Airport of 50 minutes and almost identical timings to Chat Moss route for Glasgow-Piccadilly, Freeing up Chat Moss for more high speed Transpennine semi-fasts and probably meaning Eccles could get more callers.

 

[tbtc]

Very true. And so refreshing that you're not at all concerned that Sheffield is rapidly becoming a suburb of Meadowhall

That's certainly how Megabus see us!

Meadowhall has become the location for a lot of the business that used to take place in Sheffield city centre, rightly or wrongly.

I'm not exactly a regular shopper there, but the railway needs to deal with the reality of where people work/ shop/ live, and Sheffield isn't "important" enough to warrant diverting the longer distance trains through it for the sake of serving the city centre.

I have a bit of a problem with people trying to use the railways to suit some political purpose (see various threads about linking Holyhead to Cardiff!) - it's not for the railway to preserve the independence of Coventry.

 

[steamdrivenand]

So how many people travelling to, say, Sheffield will stay in the city centre and not interchange onto another form of transport? I suggest the overwhelming majority will finish their journey by car, train, bus or tram so efficient interchange is everything and that is best outside the city centre.

I'm still agnostic on the whole thing, but I can accept that HS2 can only be justified through benefits to a wider area. Also, as far as I'm aware, nobody's suggesting that Sheffield should lose its classic services.

And as I said much earlier in the thread they may well run Compatibles into the existing Sheffield station. I think a lot of people are getting hung up on not having Captive services with their need for 400m long platforms and different loading gauge, when Compatibles can potentially provide a much more flexible service to lots of other places that are off the high speed line.

 

[JohnB57]

That's certainly how Megabus see us!

Meadowhall has become the location for a lot of the business that used to take place in Sheffield city centre, rightly or wrongly.

I'm not exactly a regular shopper there, but the railway needs to deal with the reality of where people work/ shop/ live, and Sheffield isn't "important" enough to warrant diverting the longer distance trains through it for the sake of serving the city centre.

I have a bit of a problem with people trying to use the railways to suit some political purpose (see various threads about linking Holyhead to Cardiff!) - it's not for the railway to preserve the independence of Coventry.

My comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but as I posted recently, I simply can't accept that the majority of potential business has Sheffield city centre as the final destination. Located where I am, Meadowhall actually provides a perfect location for interchange and I've used it as such many times. For the wider region I think it's the right place.

 

[tbtc]

My comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but as I posted recently, I simply can't accept that the majority of potential business has Sheffield city centre as the final destination. Located where I am, Meadowhall actually provides a perfect location for interchange and I've used it as such many times. For the wider region I think it's the right place.

I didn't know how "sarcastically" to take your comment

For a lot of the Sheffield "city region", Meadowhall is as good as Midland. For me, it's the far side of the city, but then I'd have to get on a bus/tram to get into town anyway, so what matters is the marginal time taken to get a couple of miles further (compared against the "hour" saving in time to London).

It's not as if Sheffield Midland is that "central" for most of the city centre anyway - maybe we'll see the FreeBee extended to Meadowhall...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I too had assumed that both Manchester and Leeds were to be terminal railway stations at the end of the bifurcated route northwards from Birmingham.

I made this posting on 28th December 2012 from information passed on to me "from a source", which led to criticism of me by those who were at pains to state the route would be a continuation onwards through Manchester in a northerly direction.

 

[Wath Yard]

For a lot of the Sheffield "city region", Meadowhall is as good as Midland. For me, it's the far side of the city, but then I'd have to get on a bus/tram to get into town anyway, so what matters is the marginal time taken to get a couple of miles further (compared against the "hour" saving in time to London).

How have you calculated a 1 hour saving? The document states 46 minutes for Sheffield - London and that is with a 10 minute journey and interchange between HS2 and convential rail at Meadowhall. There is no way people will be in Sheffield city centre 10 minutes after alighting from an HS2 service at Meadowhall. And even that 46 minutes is based on current journey times. The MML is being speeded up and will also be speeded up with electrification.

 

[JohnB57]

I didn't know how "sarcastically" to take your comment

For a lot of the Sheffield "city region", Meadowhall is as good as Midland. For me, it's the far side of the city, but then I'd have to get on a bus/tram to get into town anyway, so what matters is the marginal time taken to get a couple of miles further (compared against the "hour" saving in time to London).

It's not as if Sheffield Midland is that "central" for most of the city centre anyway - maybe we'll see the FreeBee extended to Meadowhall...

I think even viewing it as aimed at the "Sheffield City Region" is too narrow. I'm over the border in West Yorkshire, but it would be my nearest gateway onto HS2. Although by 2033, my hover-board should have been delivered, if not my beam transporter...

 

[tbtc]

How have you calculated a 1 hour saving? The document states 46 minutes for Sheffield - London and that is with a 10 minute journey and interchange between HS2 and convential rail at Meadowhall. There is no way people will be in Sheffield city centre 10 minutes after alighting from an HS2 service at Meadowhall. And even that 46 minutes is based on current journey times. The MML is being speeded up and will also be speeded up with electrification.

It was reported as "one hour ten minutes" on the radio this morning. I put "hour" in inverted commas because at the moment we don't know what the timetable on HS2 and the MML will be in twenty years time, so it's bound to be an approximation.

 

[Wath Yard]

Best not to rely on the media. The DfT's document claims a 2hr5min journey from Sheffield to London currently and a 1hr19min journey with HS2. But as I've stated that is never going to happen.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm over the border in West Yorkshire, but it would be my nearest gateway onto HS2.

Based on the location given under your username you don't even have a station in your town.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Based on the location given under your username you don't even have a station in your town.

Nora Batty International Exchange ?......

Seriously though, Homfirth station was originally opened on 1st July 1850 by the Huddersfield and Sheffield Junction Railway, which became part of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway. It was a terminal station and was closed to passengers on 2nd November 1959.

 

[JohnB57]

Based on the location given under your username you don't even have a station in your town.

I do, however, own a car. And I'm two miles from two stations with direct trains to Meadowhall - Stocksmoor and Shepley. As I keep saying, interchange is everything.

 

[Wath Yard]

And those services continue to Sheffield, so having the station at Meadowhall doesn't benefit you in any way unless you intend to drive to Meadowhall instead of using your local station. Encouraging people to make longer car journeys isn't really what HS2 is about.

 

[MK Tom]

I just can't see what you are trying to describe. The NE leg of the Y, towards the East Midlands and Leeds, has already been and gone well before you travel north on the WCML as far as 'between Lichfield and Rugely'.

What you are suggesting still makes no sense whatsoever.

It does make sense, I just got a bit confused with the maps - it's the Manchester/Scotland that crosses the WCML between Lichfield and Rugeley. A south-facing curve there would enable services from the WCML to use HS2 to the North West and Scotland. The Leeds line does also cross the WCML further down so a curve there would enable those connections too.