Bus safety

[BestWestern]

In response to the OP; your schoolbus driver is an idiot and I would be voicing my concerns very loudly here.

I don't suppose you or any of your schoolmates took a photo? I would hazard a guess that your vehicle is provided by a dodgy local firm? The description of driver attitude and utterly knackered old bus fits the usual bill, and if that's the case I would write (or get your parents to it you think it would be more effective) to your headteacher, as contacting the operator directly may well raise very little interest. Driving a loaded bus along a motorway with the doors open is shocking, and any decent traffic manager would go apesh*t! If it is a large firm, then try contacting them and see what they say, they should be suitably interested.


I'm also fairly certain that standing (or unseated at least) passengers are not allowed when travelling on the m-way, though I could be wrong (pretty sure though, others will clarify no doubt). You mention that your allocated bus has been damaged, which would suggest that your school crowd perhaps aren't the best behaved. However, even if that is the case, it is not an excuse for a cowboy operation. If the contractor has big problems then he needs to speak to the school to get it addressed, (i.e. provide a teacher to travel with the bus etc), and if it's that bad he can pull out when the contract is up. Regardless of any issues, you are entitled to be conveyed in safety.

I've said before, as a PCV license holder, there is no place in the industry for cowboys. They do nobody any favours, neither drivers nor passengers. Don't be afraid to report them.

 

[anthony263]

You are not allowed to have standing passengers on the bus when driving along a motorway.

I agree about reporting this inccident personally I think the driver was an idiot and needs a good talking to by his boss etc.

If this had been Stagecoach I think the local managers would have flipped even to First driving with the doors open is a big no no.

 

[90019]

Really I am suprised even modern bues on my local route which are Wrightbus Gemini 2 it can pull away with the doors open. My minibus will not go anywhere with the doors open otherwise the engine will cut out (safety)

They'll shut automatically once moving, I think it's at 5mph.

 

[Shrimper]

You can have standing passengers on a motorway according to the DFT; you can't pick up or drop off though.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/urban-buses-on-motorways.pdf

At my company we have several (commercial) school routes which use motorways for a short while and regularly have standees.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

In response to the OP; your schoolbus driver is an idiot and I would be voicing my concerns very loudly here.

Sure is, I thought exactly the same and thought what the hell was he doing when he entered the sliproad. Surprised he still his PCV, well we did actually have a different driver today!

I don't suppose you or any of your schoolmates took a photo?

I'm afraid not, I don't own a mobile and wouldn't bring my camera to school so I can't have done and my mate was sitting next to me and I'm certain he didn't take any photos and didn't see anybody else do so, all the girls were just like OMG and the boys were trying to throw paper.

I would hazard a guess that your vehicle is provided by a dodgy local firm?

Helms of Eastham, very dodgy indeed. Their depot is the old Hooton horse stables and the buses are just parked on grass/gravel, no garage so all maintenance work is done as they are parked, the whole place looks literally like a scrapyard. The drivers just smoke or go into the shed/messroom. To get buses into the depot it takes 10 minutes just to manoeuvre the bus to get it lined up for the entrance. The buses are not very looked after, shabby and rusty and they don't even bother to scrap them I don't think, just keep them in the yard, the whole place is a mess and the company is a mess.

The description of driver attitude and utterly knackered old bus fits the usual bill, and if that's the case I would write (or get your parents to if you think it would be more effective) to your headteacher, as contacting the operator directly may well raise very little interest.

I'm thinking on it at the moment because there is clearly a major flaw in H&S here, it's just clearly unacceptable I mean just think if a child would have fell out of the doors on the motorway, the inquest, court-case, effects and all sorts of things which could have been resolved with something so simple such as forcing them shut or calling another bus.

Driving a loaded bus along a motorway with the doors open is shocking, and any decent traffic manager would go apesh*t! If it is a large firm, then try contacting them and see what they say, they should be suitably interested.

Sure is shocking, can't believe the driver failed to notice any hazard with such an action.

I'm also fairly certain that standing (or unseated at least) passengers are not allowed when travelling on the m-way, though I could be wrong (pretty sure though, others will clarify no doubt).

Standing on our bus on the motorway has been happening since I have first ever got the bus, I don't think that with the amount of people that get the bus that it is possible that people can have a seat each.

You mention that your allocated bus has been damaged, which would suggest that your school crowd perhaps aren't the best behaved.

Not the best behaved no! The damage on our bus caused by our school includes the stop sign smashed in by a flying apple, the back of a seat peeled off and wood splinters thrown everywhere, graffiti, window seal all leaky, some of the seats have been pulled up and stains everywhere for example a trifle which was aimed at me hit a pole mid-flight and splattered everywhere. Various bullying goes on as well, assaults, insults, flour thrown in peoples hair and all sorts. TBH this behaviour is extremely unacceptable and I do not condone in it and do not take part in it and don't see the fun or joy in it. I don't know why people are doing this, somebody has got to pay for the damage (not that it was perfect in first place ) and it's just not cool to damage a bus/

However, even if that is the case, it is not an excuse for a cowboy operation. If the contractor has big problems then he needs to speak to the school to get it addressed, (i.e. provide a teacher to travel with the bus etc), and if it's that bad he can pull out when the contract is up. Regardless of any issues, you are entitled to be conveyed in safety.

It certainly isn't an excuse. The school has tried to deal with these issues before, appointing a 6th former to keep order which was no good, having the driver allowed to report incidents to the school, no good either so as a last resort they got one of the deputy heads to travel at times but everyone behaved when he was on but then he's given up and things carry on as normal, and some people just never learn so it's not going to stop anytime soon. The bus isn't contracted as it is outside of the Wirral so it is just a case of hiring the bus and a driver in advance like you normally would do.

I've said before, as a PCV license holder, there is no place in the industry for cowboys. They do nobody any favours, neither drivers nor passengers. Don't be afraid to report them.

I won't and I will certainly take your comments on board, thank you for this convenient post, I liked reading it and it has certainly given me some info regarding this incident.

At my company we have several (commercial) school routes which use motorways for a short while and regularly have standees.

I hope you don't work for Helms of Eastham

 

[BestWestern]

Helms of Eastham, very dodgy indeed. Their depot is the old Hooton horse stables and the buses are just parked on grass/gravel, no garage so all maintenance work is done as they are parked, the whole place looks literally like a scrapyard. The drivers just smoke or go into the shed/messroom. To get buses into the depot it takes 10 minutes just to manoeuvre the bus to get it lined up for the entrance. The buses are not very looked after, shabby and rusty and they don't even bother to scrap them I don't think, just keep them in the yard, the whole place is a mess and the company is a mess.

Quick look on Flickr shows that Helms seem to be part of Aintree Coachlines, their fleet looks like average life expired school run stuff, and a few better motors for local bus work. I'm curious which Olympian is yours; the pics show some ex-London Northern Counties examples, and an ancient B-plater ex-Chester jobby, any of those?!

I have no idea how diligent or otherwise Aintree/Helms are, but they do at least presumably have a couple of depots and so they might have a decent management in place; though again I really don't know. I'd be tempted to take a punt and write to the firm - find out who's in charge and address it to them - and see what you get back. If you get no joy, try somebody else. I suggested earlier speaking to your head teacher, a better bet might be the local council assuming it's them who award the schools contracts around your way (should be unless you go to a private school - judging by what you've said about the other kids, I'm guessing not!? ).

I'd stand by what I said earlier about the quality of the bus too, poor behaviour from the kids doesn't justify sending out a wreck, complete with dangerous driver by the sound of it. If your school needs to send out a teacher with every bus, then so be it. It happens in plenty of other places, or if they don't want to do that they can look at specifying a vehicle with CCTV fitted if there are regular behaviour problems on a certain run.

Let us know how you get on if you do decide to contact anybody!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Ok thanks for the reply. Im not allowed to identify the bus after instruction from the forum staff not to do so . The ancient B-reg wouldnt be B201 EFM would it? That bus appears from time to time on our route and actually handles the motorway pretty good for an old banger, despite it's very dusty museum piece interior. All I can say is the bus concerned is an ex London northern counties one.

The bus isnt run under a contract and is purely run from the school ringing up Helms to hire a bus and a driver,hence the reason we pay more, the contract run buses is 50p mine is £3.50 return and £2.50 single which is payed in to the driver. I dont go to a private, Im at a grammar school, still get knobs in every school though.

The behaviour on our bus does need to change though, and I am considering contacting Aintree Coachline about the incident, does seem worthy to do so. Thanks again for the advice

 

[BestWestern]

Hmm, that sounds like a bizarre arrangement. If you are paying a fare then surely it must be a registered route rather than your school doing it by private hire? Does the driver issue tickets? Either way, the bus co is answerable to VOSA and the local education authority ought to have an interest if a school is hiring in unsuitable transport.

B201 EFM indeed, sounds like a game old beastie!

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Nope, confirmed in a school council meeting that it it is our one route out of all routes that it private hire. It's because our bus does not pick up or drop off anywhere on the Wirral and runs outside the Wirral, thus it isn't contracted. Silly really. Driver issues tickets for return only. Single he doesnt give the ticket, just prints it off then scrunches it up probably so it comes up on the module.

 

[Deerfold]

I had forgot about routemasters, but then again I doubt they did anything over 45 while in London, but just the fact the driver was stupid to go on the motorway with the doors open is beyond me really

Routemasters that were expected to go on fast roads (not so many Motorways back then...) in service had doors fitted -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/2003-m07-d20_(18reduced)_-_Alton_Bus_Rally.jpg

 

[34D]

Nope, confirmed in a school council meeting that it it is our one route out of all routes that it private hire. It's because our bus does not pick up or drop off anywhere on the Wirral and runs outside the Wirral, thus it isn't contracted. Silly really. Driver issues tickets for return only. Single he doesnt give the ticket, just prints it off then scrunches it up probably so it comes up on the module.

IF this is correct, then separate fares can't be paid.

May I suggest you search on the VOSA site to see if the route is 'registered'?

Does this service run every day, or do the school just decide 'ad-hoc' to run it? Don't worry about whether in/out of the wirral. Other counties can have tendered school routes!

Helms/Aintree are a reputable firm - their MD is John Cherry who is a bit of an enthusiast. I would consider writing to him.

Re the doors, I imagine that a valve is stuck somewhere, keeping the doors open, hence why no buttons would work and they couldn't be pulled shut.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

IF this is correct, then separate fares can't be paid.

May I suggest you search on the VOSA site to see if the route is 'registered'?

Does this service run every day, or do the school just decide 'ad-hoc' to run it? Don't worry about whether in/out of the wirral. Other counties can have tendered school routes!

Helms/Aintree are a reputable firm - their MD is John Cherry who is a bit of an enthusiast. I would consider writing to him.

Re the doors, I imagine that a valve is stuck somewhere, keeping the doors open, hence why no buttons would work and they couldn't be pulled shut.

I don't know about the money, but the headteacher confirmed in a school council meeting that the bus isnt a registered route and the school have to ring up Helms and arrange for the bus to come out as well as today I brought the concern up with the deputy head that is in charge of organizing the buses and he told me the same thing that the bus is hired and not a registered rout with the council. He told me that he would be talking to them about the safety as well as issues with behaviour. He also told me if I feel I should write then I should.

He didnt try to even pull the doors shut, he just tried the button and thats all he tried to get them shut. Still no excuse either way for driving on the motorway with them open, he should have called a new bus.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Further, I think I know the answer, but how safe is it to be counting money and sorting it into change bags while driving? Is this allowed beacuse thats also something I know our bus driver makes a habit of and does it everyday. The only time he puts them down is when he stops at a stop.

 

[Deerfold]

Further, I think I know the answer, but how safe is it to be counting money and sorting it into change bags while driving? Is this allowed beacuse thats also something I know our bus driver makes a habit of and does it everyday. The only time he puts them down is when he stops at a stop.

That sounds very like driving without due care and attention.

I know in our buses in London the ticket machine et al won't display anything except a clock or take any input once the bus is travelling at more than about 5 mph.

 

[BestWestern]

You really do need to report this guy!

 

[Qwerty133]

Further, I think I know the answer, but how safe is it to be counting money and sorting it into change bags while driving? Is this allowed beacuse thats also something I know our bus driver makes a habit of and does it everyday. The only time he puts them down is when he stops at a stop.

One of the local arriva drivers does this.

 

[34D]

I don't know about the money, but the headteacher confirmed in a school council meeting that the bus isnt a registered route and the school have to ring up Helms and arrange for the bus to come out as well as today I brought the concern up with the deputy head that is in charge of organizing the buses and he told me the same thing that the bus is hired and not a registered rout with the council. He told me that he would be talking to them about the safety as well as issues with behaviour.

I think you need to be able to understand the processes/formalities better, in order to convey to us.

It may well be that this route is nothing to do with the council

It may also be that the route _is_ a registered service.

Can you have a detailed look around https://www.tan.gov.uk/tanen/vosa_selfserviceopbusregsearchresults_new.asp please.

Tomorrow morning, can you try to get the exact name of the operator (from the blue or green disc next to the tax disc) and the Operator Licence Number.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Hmmm

Found out that it was a registered route when it first started in 2007. It shows as cancelled now as well. It also shows its original route which was from the A5117 roundabout to my school via Little sutton and Willaston. Now the Willaston bit is a completely new route operated by the same company with an A-Prefix added to the end of the route name. My bus now starts at Rossmore ronudabout and goes to my school via Ellesmere port, A41 and the motorway. The Willaston one starts at Little Sutton and goes through the countryside.

SO basically, the thing on the website is heavily outdated and is showing as cancelled so the current bus route is NOT registered as I cannot find it.

I will do what you said tomorrow morning. I will also be reporting the incident in writing to the MD of Aintree coachline.

Thanks and goodnight.

 

[185]

I hope you don't work for Helms of Eastham

Greetings.

Just seen this post, and wasn't aware it was Helms. Will pass it on.

Can only assume as it's an Olympian, the air pipe has come off the top of the doors, fairly uncommon unless someone's been obstructing or forcing it.

Of interest, that school route was run for CheshireBus by Merseybus as an F59, for many years. It was a cushy job for Laird Street drivers as there was very little work in the duty.

 

[34D]

Hmmm

Found out that it was a registered route when it first started in 2007. It shows as cancelled now as well. It also shows its original route which was from the A5117 roundabout to my school via Little sutton and Willaston. Now the Willaston bit is a completely new route operated by the same company with an A-Prefix added to the end of the route name. My bus now starts at Rossmore ronudabout and goes to my school via Ellesmere port, A41 and the motorway. The Willaston one starts at Little Sutton and goes through the countryside.

SO basically, the thing on the website is heavily outdated and is showing as cancelled so the current bus route is NOT registered as I cannot find it.

I will do what you said tomorrow morning. I will also be reporting the incident in writing to the MD of Aintree coachline.

Thanks and goodnight.

The reason I want you to check the O-licence is that some operators have 2 or 3 licences (with perhaps several discs on each): all the routes on HELMS COACHES LTD come up as registration cancelled as far as I can see. Possibly there is another licence.

If you do write to John Cherry, please be really polite, and hopefully he'll write back. Let's try and be semi-clear of all the facts first.

Do the school pay any money to Helms for operating this? If so, ask the school for a copy of the contract that is applicable.

 

[christopher]

Seem's like running about with doors open is common at the company!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/6350112073/

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Greetings.

Just seen this post, and wasn't aware it was Helms. Will pass it on.

Can only assume as it's an Olympian, the air pipe has come off the top of the doors, fairly uncommon unless someone's been obstructing or forcing it.

Of interest, that school route was run for CheshireBus by Merseybus as an F59, for many years. It was a cushy job for Laird Street drivers as there was very little work in the duty.

I presume you don't drive the route. I also presume you are talking about school bus route 65?

Just talking about the air pipe, it might be worthwhile to get it fixed. Thanks for passing the concerns on though

If you do write to John Cherry, please be really polite, and hopefully he'll write back. Let's try and be semi-clear of all the facts first.

Of course, rather than rant on, I will just raise the incidents with him. So nothing like: "Your driver is an idiot and should be ashamed and I will never use your company again blah blah blah"

 

[bluenoxid]

Of course, rather than rant on, I will just raise the incidents with him. So nothing like: "Your driver is an idiot and should be ashamed and I will never use your company again blah blah blah"

And you should be rushed off the road. And some professional firm like First Group should be used :roll:

 

[Crossover]

Further, I think I know the answer, but how safe is it to be counting money and sorting it into change bags while driving? Is this allowed beacuse thats also something I know our bus driver makes a habit of and does it everyday. The only time he puts them down is when he stops at a stop.

It is a long time since I have really used the buses round here, but when I was at school, it was fairly common practice for the drivers to be doing this, especially towards the end of their runs. A lot of the time though, it was at traffic lights, but not always (I never used school buses, always service buses as our area didn't have anything else)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of the buses I drive, all the Volvos (both single deck and decker) won't let you open the doors until you're below a certain speed (I think it may be 3mph), and will automatically close them once you're above about 5mph or so.
The Pointers have no restriction at all, and you can open and close the doors at any time and at any speed.

It's nice on the Volvos because you just hold the button as you're stopping and they open as soon as you're slow enough, so they're fully open by the time you've stopped.
The system on the Pointers is also quite useful as the speed the doors open varys a lot between some buses, with some opening so fast that they slam off the bulkhead at the front of the bus, and some taking an age to open, so you can start them opening at different points so they're at least partially open when you've stopped.


The Wright Streetlite demonstrator we had recently, you had to put the handbrake on before it would let you open the doors, which is fine until you forget because you've been driving other buses all day.

There are a couple of the single deck Volvos I drive that are a bit slow for the stopping light to go off - it's more irriating because the bell at the front of the bus only rings the first time, after that it's only the one at the back which you can't really hear that well, so when someone pushes it by accident it's best to stop and open the doors fully, even if you know nobody wants off.

It's almost relevant, but two of the Volvo single decks have a rather stupid setup where the light on the dashboard goes out after a few seconds, but the one for the passengers stays on. They also only ring the front bell once, so if you miss it and don't see the light on the dashboard before it goes off again, you can miss stops. Thankfully I've not missed any yet as I just listen more carefully for the bell on those two.

Thanks for the info

 

[ATW Alex 101]

It is a long time since I have really used the buses round here, but when I was at school, it was fairly common practice for the drivers to be doing this, especially towards the end of their runs. A lot of the time though, it was at traffic lights, but not always (I never used school buses, always service buses as our area didn't have anything else)

Our bus driver does it when driving though, balancing his arm on the wheel to keep it straight, then using his hands to count the money.

I have sent a letter off to Aintree Coachline and my mate has took it further and his dad has sent an email off to the MP!

 

[Deerfold]

Our bus driver does it when driving though, balancing his arm on the wheel to keep it straight, then using his hands to count the money.

I have sent a letter off to Aintree Coachline and my mate has took it further and his dad has sent an email off to the MP!

An initial reaction of a letter to an MP seems to be a little overreaction before the company has been contacted!

 

[aylesbury]

Sounds like this companies drivers urgently need to take their CPC tests or else be banned from driving.This morning coming home on our local bus(not Arriva) rang bell,heard it in cab ,stopping sign came on,driver sales past stop.My wife shouted that we have rung bell ,he replied ,didnt hear it .This not the first time with this driver ,he is ignorant and completely charmless unlike the other drivers.Hope you get satisfaction with this problem ,your school are partly to blme as well ,talk to a school govenor and Ofsted this will wake up the parties invloved.

 

[90019]

heard it in cab

Were you sitting in the cab at the time? :?

 

[BuhSnarf]

An initial reaction of a letter to an MP seems to be a little overreaction before the company has been contacted!

It's a bus ferrying kids around, I can't see how contacting an mp is an over reaction. This guy deserves to be named and shamed. If you're carrying kids you should at least do it safely!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Deerfold]

It's a bus ferrying kids around, I can't see how contacting an mp is an over reaction. This guy deserves to be named and shamed. If you're carrying kids you should at least do it safely!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

But surely contacting the company directly is more likely to have a rapid response if it's a reputable company?

If you want fast action to ensure the safety of the children, contact the Police and/or Traffic Commissioner.

What's the MP going to do (speedily) that these other bodies wouldn't?

 

[aylesbury]

Were you sitting in the cab at the time? :?

No I was stood in the bus ready to alight and I was directly behind the parition between the cab and saloon.The cab is open to the bus as are most these days,the driver is an ignorant prat who does this to many people .