Thameslink Wimbledon loop "saved"

[Panda]

The problems yesterday and today point out exactly why this was such a ridiculous waste of time and effort to campaign for something which provides us with a completely inefficient service in the name of politics.

Both my "usual" trains were cancelled due to problems with overhead wires (and the part of the route I use don't have any overhead wires). If the route was split correctly as proposed, only half the line would have had issues. That's efficiency!!

 

[cle]

Because Cat/Tat were in the proposals to have 2tph each (fast from Norwood Junction - London Bridge, then stopping to St Albans and Welwyn Garden City) so they would have had 2tph fast into London all day. Tattenham currently gets fast trains to LBG off-peak but Caterham has 4tph stopping service to both VIC and LBG with a 50+ minute journey time unless you change trains.

And it's only since this Loop turnaround that this loss has been mentioned, so the CP4 update in December wouldn't account for that.

Exactly, thanks.

The slow service from Thameslink has been rescinded. At one point it was thought adding some turnouts would enable some stops at Forest Hill and Sydenham before rejoining the fast centre lines.

This is now not happening and the only remnant of such a plan is the current stopping of semi-fast services at New Cross Gate - to continue under Thameslink.

 

[W230]

The problems yesterday and today point out exactly why this was such a ridiculous waste of time and effort to campaign for something which provides us with a completely inefficient service in the name of politics.

Absolutely! I notice that the loop trains are currently run from Blackfriars during this disruption. Probably a good thing as there will hopefully be a more consistent service, judging by how many were cancelled this morning.

 

[cle]

Thing is their comms and staff are so crap, it's easier to do a 180 than to actually educate users about why they'd be better off with the split.

They should seize issues like the current ones as perfect examples of why ringfencing works: better a change at Blackfriars than no train at all - and this would still remain the runt of the litter, fully within Oyster and so hardly big revenues.

 

[Skimble19]

I'm dreading what it's going to be like when the GN is integrated..

 

[jon0844]

I know. It's going to be a nightmare when things go wrong or at peak times with very little room to manoeuvre.

 

[Class377/5]

And it's only since this Loop turnaround that this loss has been mentioned, so the CP4 update in December wouldn't account for that.

I disagree, NR knew in December of this change that I know of. Maybe earlier.

 

[Skimble19]

I know. It's going to be a nightmare when things go wrong or at peak times with very little room to manoeuvre.

The only way around it would be to leave plenty of stock and crew on the GN, but then there wouldn't be any point in integrating at all! Out of interest, who is it on the GN that *actually* wants to go to... Three Bridges but can't walk from Kings Cross to St Pancras?!

 

[Class377/5]

The only way around it would be to leave plenty of stock and crew on the GN, but then there wouldn't be any point in integrating at all! Out of interest, who is it on the GN that *actually* wants to go to... Three Bridges but can't walk from Kings Cross to St Pancras?!

Its got nothing to do with who wants to go from GN to BML and all about terminal capacity.

The problems yesterday and today point out exactly why this was such a ridiculous waste of time and effort to campaign for something which provides us with a completely inefficient service in the name of politics.

Both my "usual" trains were cancelled due to problems with overhead wires (and the part of the route I use don't have any overhead wires). If the route was split correctly as proposed, only half the line would have had issues. That's efficiency!!

You state it's about politics yet when consulted the public clearly asked for the trains to go through. That's not politics but democracy at work, that's how we run this country and quite frankly why shouldn't the users get what they want?

As for if the line was spilt as proposed half would have the issue, no, same thing just different set of users affected. It's not efficiency your asking for but giving up hope.

 

[NSEFAN]

You state it's about politics yet when consulted the public clearly asked for the trains to go through. That's not politics but democracy at work, that's how we run this country and quite frankly why shouldn't the users get what they want?

The end users of the service don't necessarily appreciate the needs of the wider system. I fail to see why a cross-platform change of train on a commuting journey is unacceptable.

In the case of long-distance expresses full of leisure travellers with heavy luggage, direct trains are more acceptable (and in fact an ideal) option. For a peak high-density service (especially in London), you want to run as many trains as you physically can in order to keep people moving. The whole point of terminating Wimbledon trains at Blackfriars was exactly that, no?

Of course, all this could be fixed by installing a grade separated junction somewhere south of Blackfriars, but that's just more disruption and cost when a much cheaper solution has been found (and rejected by the users).

 

[Class377/5]

The end users of the service don't necessarily appreciate the needs of the wider system. I fail to see why a cross-platform change of train on a commuting journey is unacceptable.

In the case of long-distance expresses full of leisure travellers with heavy luggage, direct trains are more acceptable (and in fact an ideal) option. For a peak high-density service (especially in London), you want to run as many trains as you physically can in order to keep people moving. The whole point of terminating Wimbledon trains at Blackfriars was exactly that, no?

Of course, all this could be fixed by installing a grade separated junction somewhere south of Blackfriars, but that's just more disruption and cost when a much cheaper solution has been found (and rejected by the users).

Sooty but what needs of the wider system are you talking about? They would suffer a worse service but they want this. All other services are proposed so they won't actually be effected by this decision but a later one to connect routes.

Your whole point supports Loop trains going through the Core as long distance need to bays with better dwell times compared to the 45 seconds on through trains.

Putting the trains into the bays is nothing to do with getting as many trains through the Core as the issue is south of Elephant and conflicting moves there. However from Dec 2014 16tph are going to be mixing, the same number of trains as is mixing now so its do-able now every day so any point that its un feasible is ludicrous as its already being done.

It's simply a moan by those's who do not understand the situation or those's that lost out due to more people wanting it. In the latter case tough, that's how the UK runs. The former, well its already happening so there's no valid point of why not.

 

[NSEFAN]

Sooty but what needs of the wider system are you talking about? They would suffer a worse service but they want this. All other services are proposed so they won't actually be effected by this decision but a later one to connect routes.

Your whole point supports Loop trains going through the Core as long distance need to bays with better dwell times compared to the 45 seconds on through trains.

Putting the trains into the bays is nothing to do with getting as many trains through the Core as the issue is south of Elephant and conflicting moves there. However from Dec 2014 16tph are going to be mixing, the same number of trains as is mixing now so its do-able now every day so any point that its un feasible is ludicrous as its already being done.

It's simply a moan by those's who do not understand the situation or those's that lost out due to more people wanting it. In the latter case tough, that's how the UK runs. The former, well its already happening so there's no valid point of why not.

The wider system I'm to which I'm referring is the rest of Thameslink. It is a system which needs to shift as many people as it can, therefore it makes sense to make decisions which inconvenience some people BUT result in more trains being able to operate on the busiest sections.

The problem is flat junctions. Just south of Blackfriars, the trains via London Bridge and those via Herne Hill need to cross each others' paths. If there was a grade-separated junction this would not be an issue. Having Wimbledon and Brighton services interlacing over a flat junction will reduce the number of trains per hour you can run on the line. It is a bottleneck. Off-peak there should be plenty of redundancy to run through services, but during the peaks you will be limited because of junctions like these.

If you were to, say, terminate Wimbledon trains at Blackfriars and keep trains via London Bridge running through, you remove this junction problem altogether and overall the number of trains can be increased, because the two sets of services never have to interfere with each other.

The price to pay is cutting back a service and making people change trains, which in central London for commuting journeys is not a real problem, more of a mild inconvenience. The reason I used the long-distance service to compare was because, for long distance travel, passengers tend to have a lot of luggage which is bulky and time consuming to move. Commuters with their backpacks and briefcases won't have the same difficulty in changing trains.

Of course, there are bottlenecks elsewhere, but from an operational point of view it is madness to have services interfering with each other on the busiest sections of your line. If you look at the approach to any London terminal (and a bit further up the line), they normally have some form of grade separation to allow more trains to enter and exit the station (or diverge onto suburban routes). Installing a new junction like this at Blackfriars would be hugely disruptive and expensive. As I said before, a cheaper and workable alternative has been found, but apparently it's too much to ask for passengers from the Wimbledon loop to walk ALL the way across the platform at Blackfriars to catch a connecting train.

 

[Clip]

Dont worry, give it 5 years in practice and they will change it to changing at Blackfriars again

 

[NSEFAN]

Dont worry, give it 5 years in practice and they will change it to changing at Blackfriars again

Well they'll have to if they want 30tph through the core during rush hour. 16tph might be sufficient now, but eventually you'll have to run more trains.

 

[Clip]

Well they'll have to if they want 30tph through the core during rush hour. 16tph might be sufficient now, but eventually you'll have to run more trains.

Oh it wont be any of that sensible reasoning to it, itll just be new people in the role who think of a great idea and action it like its brand new and how did they not think of it before

 

[Class377/5]

The wider system I'm to which I'm referring is the rest of Thameslink. It is a system which needs to shift as many people as it can, therefore it makes sense to make decisions which inconvenience some people BUT result in more trains being able to operate on the busiest sections.

The problem is flat junctions. Just south of Blackfriars, the trains via London Bridge and those via Herne Hill need to cross each others' paths. If there was a grade-separated junction this would not be an issue. Having Wimbledon and Brighton services interlacing over a flat junction will reduce the number of trains per hour you can run on the line. It is a bottleneck. Off-peak there should be plenty of redundancy to run through services, but during the peaks you will be limited because of junctions like these.

If you were to, say, terminate Wimbledon trains at Blackfriars and keep trains via London Bridge running through, you remove this junction problem altogether and overall the number of trains can be increased, because the two sets of services never have to interfere with each other.

The price to pay is cutting back a service and making people change trains, which in central London for commuting journeys is not a real problem, more of a mild inconvenience. The reason I used the long-distance service to compare was because, for long distance travel, passengers tend to have a lot of luggage which is bulky and time consuming to move. Commuters with their backpacks and briefcases won't have the same difficulty in changing trains.

Of course, there are bottlenecks elsewhere, but from an operational point of view it is madness to have services interfering with each other on the busiest sections of your line. If you look at the approach to any London terminal (and a bit further up the line), they normally have some form of grade separation to allow more trains to enter and exit the station (or diverge onto suburban routes). Installing a new junction like this at Blackfriars would be hugely disruptive and expensive. As I said before, a cheaper and workable alternative has been found, but apparently it's too much to ask for passengers from the Wimbledon loop to walk ALL the way across the platform at Blackfriars to catch a connecting train.

Ah now I see why your saying what you are because you don't actually understand what's going on. You've confused two separate issues.

First thing is the Loop trains going through the Core is not connected to your point over the flat junction.

There was always panned to be trains crossing over at Blackfriars at the junction south of the station. What the rebuild did is stop every train inflicting as the planned 32tph south of Blackfriars require the current set up. 8tph per hour will be crossing south of Blackfrairs although in earlier plan it was 6tph. This changed last year as they realised they needed to reduce the SE trains linking to a Thameslink or they'd have to reduce tph into Cannon Street in peak

The point over where the Loop trains is separate as by Elephant & Castle these can already be on the fast lines there. The conflict will be at Loughborough Junction.

From an operationalising of view its slightly more complex, yet with a quicker nipper fleet it will work as 16tph of 319 and 377 will be mixing at these locations and both are slower than the new 700's.
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Well they'll have to if they want 30tph through the core during rush hour. 16tph might be sufficient now, but eventually you'll have to run more trains.

Actually design being implemented is for 32tph through the Core for a limited period. Not given full time frame but would be a part of peak to be increased once disruption has occurred.

 

[NSEFAN]

Ah now I see why your saying what you are because you don't actually understand what's going on. You've confused two separate issues.

First thing is the Loop trains going through the Core is not connected to your point over the flat junction.

There was always panned to be trains crossing over at Blackfriars at the junction south of the station. What the rebuild did is stop every train inflicting as the planned 32tph south of Blackfriars require the current set up. 8tph per hour will be crossing south of Blackfrairs although in earlier plan it was 6tph. This changed last year as they realised they needed to reduce the SE trains linking to a Thameslink or they'd have to reduce tph into Cannon Street in peak

The point over where the Loop trains is separate as by Elephant & Castle these can already be on the fast lines there. The conflict will be at Loughborough Junction.

From an operationalising of view its slightly more complex, yet with a quicker nipper fleet it will work as 16tph of 319 and 377 will be mixing at these locations and both are slower than the new 700's.

Hmmm I'm surprised that a flat junction can support 32tph. Even if it works in theory, there's almost no margin for error so it's going to be a killer for timekeeping!

Is there a detailed trackplan of the new layout in the public domain? I find it hard to believe that Loughborough Jn is causing problems at 8tph and it would be good to picture where the problems are actually happening.

 

[jon0844]

The only way around it would be to leave plenty of stock and crew on the GN, but then there wouldn't be any point in integrating at all! Out of interest, who is it on the GN that *actually* wants to go to... Three Bridges but can't walk from Kings Cross to St Pancras?!

When I first heard about the link up, I have to say I quite liked the prospect of trains that would run down to Brighton. Perfect for a day trip, or perhaps for getting to the airport.

But over the years, it's become clear that - for one - trains that ended at King's Cross won't all be services to Brighton. Instead it's likely a service to somewhere that I personally have no need to go to, and I have no idea how many other commuters on the GN line do.

Yet that's not the real issue; it's the fear that with paths so tight on the ECML that trains coming over late will cause chaos to everything - even trains from Moorgate (although perhaps slightly less so once the new lines open that keep the slows separated until Ally Pally). You're going to either have EC, GC and HT trains heavily delayed, or find that the Thameslink trains are forced to wait somewhere (and where will that be, as I can't imagine you can queue trains between St Pancras and the join to the ECML!).

GN commuters that board trains at King's Cross and therefore, as long as you arrive in time, can get on and get a seat will now be trying to board some trains at St Pancras that are a) late and b) crowded already. It won't be fun.

The walk between the two stations is ridiculously quick (and fully step-free if required), and there's not even phone coverage down on the lower level platforms - and it's a pretty horrid place to be waiting for your train compared to upstairs in a bright and airy station. Okay, you could wait upstairs at St Pancras but I wouldn't want to try and get downstairs quickly when the train is now showing as arriving.

One more thing is that, ignoring whether there was room or not, or the cost, I think St Pancras needed more platforms. Even if trains can run in either direction on either track, there's still going to be major problems when trains break down - and even the best recovery plans or trying to get loads more trains through is going to be wishful thinking when the crowds build up. The biggest problem is loads of people waiting for lots of different trains, totally unlike a tube station where you generally just get the next train and go. Again, I'd rather be waiting at King's Cross and going to a specific platform instead.

 

[Class377/5]

Hmmm I'm surprised that a flat junction can support 32tph. Even if it works in theory, there's almost no margin for error so it's going to be a killer for timekeeping!

Is there a detailed trackplan of the new layout in the public domain? I find it hard to believe that Loughborough Jn is causing problems at 8tph and it would be good to picture where the problems are actually happening.

You do realise this 32tph will be controlled by a computer and not a human don't you?

There are detailed plans, I've got one but not sure it's public. Your right the 8tph isn't an issue but its not 8 but 16tph there. And 16tph needs monitoring but is possible.

 

[jon0844]

You do realise this 32tph will be controlled by a computer and not a human don't you?

Of course, but there won't be computers boarding and alighting the trains and when the platform is full of commuters wanting different trains, and tourists with huge bags wanting to get on a train to Gatwick, or off a train for Eurostar, there will be problems - or many doors being closed on people to get going!!

 

[Class377/5]

Of course, but there won't be computers boarding and alighting the trains and when the platform is full of commuters wanting different trains, and tourists with huge bags wanting to get on a train to Gatwick, or off a train for Eurostar, there will be problems - or many doors being closed on people to get going!!

But yet current dwell times aren't that far off those's planned and these trains are designed to shelve people in and can tell the station where there's space prior to arrival.

 

[jon0844]

IF that feature is included, of course.

That and the people at the station taking any notice of this. I bet you'll find that most people will still congregate by the bottom of the escalators and not take advantage of 12 car trains arriving any more than they do now.

 

[A-driver]

But yet current dwell times aren't that far off those's planned and these trains are designed to shelve people in and can tell the station where there's space prior to arrival.

Although at the moment northbound trains from the core stations only go to Bedford semi fast or Luton stopper.

Wait until half the kings x commuters are standing on the single northbound platform at st pancras for stations towards welwyn, Cambridge and p'bo and see how the dwell times hold up!

Late runners jamming the doors whilst they try to read where the train is going etc.

 

[Nym]

Although at the moment northbound trains from the core stations only go to Bedford semi fast or Luton stopper.

Wait until half the kings x commuters are standing on the single northbound platform at st pancras for stations towards welwyn, Cambridge and p'bo and see how the dwell times hold up!

Late runners jamming the doors whilst they try to read where the train is going etc.

That last bit could easilly be solved by installing better PIS systems, light blue on darker blue doesn't work anywhere near as well as yellow/orange on black that is used on Network Rail stations... Why did LCR think that this colour scheme was a good idea anyway?

 

[jon0844]

Only slightly better than the yellow/green on dark green that Network Rail inflicted on some stations for a while. Impossible to see even quite close up if at a bit of an angle!

 

[Class377/5]

That last bit could easilly be solved by installing better PIS systems, light blue on darker blue doesn't work anywhere near as well as yellow/orange on black that is used on Network Rail stations... Why did LCR think that this colour scheme was a good idea anyway?

It's Network Rails new CIS gear not LCR. The stuffs been put in all Core stations and London Bridge is to get it.

 

[philjo]

IF that feature is included, of course.

That and the people at the station taking any notice of this. I bet you'll find that most people will still congregate by the bottom of the escalators and not take advantage of 12 car trains arriving any more than they do now.

Like the group of teenagers boarding the train I was alighting from at Potters Bar in the peak this morning - 25+ of them all with large suitcases all getting on through the same door (the one nearest the top of the ramp). The doors at the other 7 coaches were already clear and the group had only just started to get on.

 

[Class377/5]

Although at the moment northbound trains from the core stations only go to Bedford semi fast or Luton stopper.

Wait until half the kings x commuters are standing on the single northbound platform at st pancras for stations towards welwyn, Cambridge and p'bo and see how the dwell times hold up!

Late runners jamming the doors whilst they try to read where the train is going etc.

They are a massive mix of calling patterns so I'd argue your point is less valid. In peak there's lots of skipping and at one point three Bedford's back to back with massively difference calling patterns. All your talking about is more passengers waiting and NR has modelled the stations to handle all projected passenger loadings up to 2074 or similar. (Sure it's about 50yrs worth).
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IF that feature is included, of course.

That and the people at the station taking any notice of this. I bet you'll find that most people will still congregate by the bottom of the escalators and not take advantage of 12 car trains arriving any more than they do now.

Its being used as stuff is being set up for it now.

 

[A-driver]

Well I stand by my point. You can design whatever you like but in reality commuters won't do what they are told to go. That is a fact. People will stand right up at the front if the platform waiting for their train and won't move for those wanting the others. Look at places like old street, highbury, finsbury park etc.

And there is nowhere near the amount if calling patterns at the moment than there will be come the thameslink.

 

[Clip]

Dwell times will be a killer because pax don't get it.

I was at edgware road yesteday for the tube and just as the lift doors closed someone jumped in. Setting them open. Repeated 5 times even when the other lift was up. Pax just do what they do and don't pay attention.

What it will be a case of is educating them now rather than later. There will always be another train. Somethin lo pax need to realise too