Quicker in the days of Steam ?

[Mutant Lemming]

I spent what seemed like an inordinately long time on a train to Yeovil recently and looking at an old timetable noticed that the journey time from London has changed little since the days of steam.
Are there any through trains from London that actually do take longer than they did in the days of steam ?

 

[ainsworth74]

What were the timings to Yeovil (Junction I assume as Pen Mill is hardly a fair comparison as it no longer has a direct service)?

 

[Greenback]

Today's services make far more stops than the fastest expresses of the steam era. This may skew any figures. The smaller stations have a much better service now than they ever did previously, both in terms of frequency and speed of journeys.

 

[starrymarkb]

I think the GWML is slower end to end. But rather then running the fast trains with odd times at intermediate stops; there is now a consistent service of 2TPH to both Bristol and Cardiff with clockface stops at the intermediate stations.

I think most passengers would prefer a slightly slower journey at regular intervals

 

[Greenback]

I think you are right. Also, since the days of steam there has been a lot of growth in long distance commuting.

 

[341o2]

In the days of steam the line between Salisbury and Exeter kept a clear passage for the Atlantic Coast Express. there were only 2 places where an express could overtake a stopping train, at Yeovil and Seaton Junction. The timetable introduced after withdrawal of the ACE and the simplified layout did have some semi fast trains. Todays timetable is built around a regular interval all stations service between Exeter and Salisbury.

Of the 49 stations between London Waterloo and Exeter 12 have been closed, three subsequently reopened. The down ACE was allowed 3hr 4min to Exeter Central, today stopping service is approximately the same time. not really a fair comparison, I don't have steam stopping timetable for the line to hand

 

[eastwestdivide]

For comparison, from the 1957-58 timetable, Waterloo-Yeovil Jn on a weekday, all 9 daytime trains:

0900 arr 1152
1100 arr 1349
1300 arr 1543
1500 arr 1755
1530 arr 1925
1700 arr 2014*
1800 arr 2048
1900 arr 2114*
1930 arr 2311

so mostly taking around 2h45-2h50, with a couple* 2h14 [edit: misread the time on the 1700 - only one 2h14]

And today, Waterloo-Yeovil every hour from 0710 until 2120, plus a couple of rush-hour extras, with a fairly standard 2h18 journey time.

 

[tbtc]

People like to point out that the Manchester - Liverpool trains were faster in the days of steam.

I have no idea whether they are correct, but I think its fairly meaningless to compare one "fast" service a day with a frequent service nowadays that has a robust timetable (did all of these "fast" trains arrive within five minutes at the terminus etc etc).

There's probably other examples. Sheffield to London was about 2h20 under BR, the "main" service is around 2h07 under EMT, but we've lost the once-a-day "fast" service (omitting Derby) (which could do the journey in under two hours), and gained a second hourly service (taking ten/ fifteen minutes longer) so there's a reduction in the headline time between the cities but overall a big improvement. I don't know the steam times for this route though.

 

[TrainBoy98]

Well the ECML had the non-stop Flying Scotsman! Surely thats faster than the equivilant service today?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well the ECML had the non-stop Flying Scotsman! Surely thats faster than the equivilant service today?

As far as I'm aware all of the ECML Edinburgh - London services are faster than any steam powered service and indeed most are considerably faster (on the order of several hours at least).

 

[30907]

For comparison, from the 1957-58 timetable, Waterloo-Yeovil Jn on a weekday, all 9 daytime trains:

0900 arr 1152
1100 arr 1349
1300 arr 1543
1500 arr 1755
1530 arr 1925
1700 arr 2014*
1800 arr 2048
1900 arr 2114*
1930 arr 2311

so mostly taking around 2h45-2h50, with a couple* 2h14

Memo from Pedants' Corner - except that the 5pm down took 3 hr 14 calling just about everywhere beyond Basingstoke; the 3.30 and 7.30 were change at Basingstoke

 

[N Levers]

Of the 48 stations between Salisbury and Exeter 12 have been closed, three subsequently reopened.

I'm confused. Are you sure there were 48 stations between Salisbury and Exeter.

 

[Welshman]

People like to point out that the Manchester - Liverpool trains were faster in the days of steam.

I have no idea whether they are correct, but I think its fairly meaningless to compare one "fast" service a day with a frequent service nowadays that has a robust timetable (did all of these "fast" trains arrive within five minutes at the terminus etc etc).

Back in the days before nationalisation, there was great competition for business between Manchester and Liverpool.

The Cheshire Lines Committee[CLC] from Manchester Central to Liverpool Central and the LNWR from Manchester Exchange to Liverpool Lime St both competed for a 40-minute journey time, and these were regular services, not just "one-offs"

Admittedly, the CLC and LNWR had easier routes than their equivalent today. For example, the CLC had a straight run out of Manchester Central, with cut-offs avoiding Warrington and Widnes and a straight run from Hunts Cross into Liverpool Central via St Michael's. Today, their equivalent trains have to negotiate Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Rd, Castlefields Junction, the severe curve on to the LNWR at Allerton and the slow route through Edge Hill, in addition to serving Warrington Central and Widnes.

Similarly, the LNWR expresses from Manchester Exchange had an easier run -no busy Ordsall Lane Junction to negotiate, stopping only at Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown, or neither, and four-tracks between Huyton and Liverpool Lime St, allowing slower trains to be overtaken.

And in the days when you could thunder through Kirkby, unhindered by buffer-stops, and steam straight into Liverpool Exchange, even the L&Y, with its longer 36.5 mile route tried to compete with the 40 minute schedules by using the Brindle Heath flyover, the fast lines through Atherton, etc, the Pemberton loop avoiding Wigan Wallgate, and very lightly-loaded trains.

So, yes - a regular 40-minute service was offered then - which is why I tend to greet the spin that an electrified TPE service from Liverpool Lime St to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss will introduce faster journeys with a hollow chuckle. Perhaps we might even achieve what was done on a daily basis in the 1930s.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Memo from Pedants' Corner - except that the 5pm down took 3 hr 14 calling just about everywhere beyond Basingstoke; the 3.30 and 7.30 were change at Basingstoke

Oops, only an hour out.
Thanks for the correction, those old timetables make it hard to work out if it's a through train or not.

In fact the corrected version does a better job of demolishing the "quicker in the days of steam" theory - only one service a day was quicker, and then only by 4 mins, than the standard hourly timing today.

 

[sprinterguy]

Well the ECML had the non-stop Flying Scotsman! Surely thats faster than the equivilant service today?

Not a chance: Even the lightweight, A4 hauled, "Coronation" of only seven or eight carriages took six hours to get from Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley. The "Flying Scotsman" consistently loaded considerably heavier and in the LNER's "golden era" the non-stop run took 7 and a half hours from Kings Cross to Edinburgh.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not a chance: Even the lightweight, A4 hauled, "Coronation" of only seven or eight carriages took six hours to get from Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley. The "Flying Scotsman" consistently loaded considerably heavier and in the LNER's "golden era" the non-stop run took 7 and a half hours from Kings Cross to Edinburgh.

Knew you'd be able to come along and put some figures to it Any idea on timings in the 60s/70s when Deltics were around but before HSTs arrived on the scene?

 

[DarloRich]

Well the ECML had the non-stop Flying Scotsman! Surely thats faster than the equivilant service today?

Dont be so silly :roll:

The fastest services took over 6 hours from Kings Cross to Edinburgh. They are MUCH quicker today.

BR may have run some faster servcies than today. I dont have the facts to hand

 

[sprinterguy]

Knew you'd be able to come along and put some figures to it Any idea on timings in the 60s/70s when Deltics were around but before HSTs arrived on the scene?

According to the article linked below, in 1967 the Deltic hauled "Flying Scotsman" was timed to do the Kings Cross to Edinburgh journey in 5 hours 50 minutes, which had been reduced to 5 hours 27 minutes a decade later (With one intermediate stop at Newcastle in both cases), a year or two before the HSTs were introduced:

http://www.ingenious.org.uk/Read/Exploringandtravelling/FlyingScotsman/Thetrain/

 

[eastwestdivide]

Knew you'd be able to come along and put some figures to it Any idea on timings in the 60s/70s when Deltics were around but before HSTs arrived on the scene?

From the 78/79 timetable, when the first HSTs were coming in (the cover shows 254002 at York), the Flying Scotsman (HST) 1000 KX arrive Edinburgh 1452 (with one stop at Newcastle) 1304/1305. 4h52
The previous 0900 from KX looks like loco hauled (the HSTs had crossed knife & fork and fork in a circle catering symbols, while this had crossed knife & fork plus teacup - any ideas?):
KX 0900, PB 0955/57, York 1135/36, Darlington 1213/15, Newcastle 1249/52, Berwick d1349, Edinburgh a1446. 5h46

From the 1974 ABC guide, pre-HST, and possibly prior to removal of some of the speed restrictions*:
KX 1000, Edinburgh 1530 = 5h30
and the same timings in the other direction. (returns £17.08 second class and £26.59 first class)

*In both 74 and 78 they would still be going via Selby swing bridge, but there were many incremental improvements to all sorts of speed restrictions as the HSTs came in. e.g. Doncaster resignalling in 1979...

Edit: still typing when sprinterguy posted

 

[ainsworth74]

According to the article linked below, in 1967 the Deltic hauled "Flying Scotsman" was timed to do the Kings Cross to Edinburgh journey in 5 hours 50 minutes, which had been reduced to 5 hours 27 minutes a decade later (With one intermediate stop at Newcastle in both cases), a year or two before the HSTs were introduced:

Edit: still typing when sprinterguy posted

Thanks both! So I think we can be fairly conclusive in saying that the modern ECML timetable knocks the socks off of previous years in terms of journey times as even the services which have eight intermediate stops are faster (taking 4hr 45min) than the non-stop or one stop services of years gone by.

*In both 74 and 78 they would still be going via Selby swing bridge

You know I sometimes forget that everything went via Selby once upon a time.

 

[Bevan Price]

Similarly, the LNWR expresses from Manchester Exchange had an easier run -no busy Ordsall Lane Junction to negotiate, stopping only at Newton-le-Willows or Earlestown, or neither, and four-tracks between Huyton and Liverpool Lime St, allowing slower trains to be overtaken.

So, yes - a regular 40-minute service was offered then - which is why I tend to greet the spin that an electrified TPE service from Liverpool Lime St to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss will introduce faster journeys with a hollow chuckle. Perhaps we might even achieve what was done on a daily basis in the 1930s.

The fastest regular interval service between Lime St. & Manchester Exchange was with the Trans Pennine dmu service introduced in 1960, with many trains taking about 37 mins. with one intermediate stop - with trains limited to 70 mph.

 

[tbtc]

Was the alignment through Penmanshiel faster or slower on the ECML back then?

(honestly don't know - I appreciate that the Selby bit is now a lot faster)

Back in the days before nationalisation, there was great competition for business between Manchester and Liverpool

Interesting stuff, thanks

 

[30907]

Penmanshiel collapsed 1979 or 80

@eastwestdivide - yes the service was mixed HST and Deltic then, 55 mins to P'boro would be Deltic timings

 

[tbtc]

Was the alignment through Penmanshiel faster or slower on the ECML back then?

(honestly don't know - I appreciate that the Selby bit is now a lot faster

Penmanshiel collapsed 1979 or 80

Do you know whether the "old" alignment or the current alignment were faster though? The Wiki image isn't conclusive - [plain]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Penmanshiel.png[/plain] - or is there basically no difference?

 

[D1009]

From my recollection the new alignment is slightly longer and slightly faster.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Knew you'd be able to come along and put some figures to it Any idea on timings in the 60s/70s when Deltics were around but before HSTs arrived on the scene?

Not long before the Deltics finished, the fastest non HST service in the country was the Hull Executive, 1705 from the Cross, first stop Retford in 93 minutes.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I had also forgotten the selby diversion, does anyone have a map of where the ECML used to go? I am struggling to find one?

 

[David Goddard]

Dont be so silly :roll:

The fastest services took over 6 hours from Kings Cross to Edinburgh. They are MUCH quicker today.

BR may have run some faster servcies than today. I dont have the facts to hand

There was a couple of 3h59 timings either at the end of BR or early in GNER days, but that was about it.

 

[ainsworth74]

There was a couple of 3h59 timings either at the end of BR or early in GNER days, but that was about it.

I wonder how reliable they were? EC have their four hour service in the morning to London but the reality is that it's regularly at least five minutes late often around ten.

 

[30907]

Look on Googlemaps or similar:

from Selby swing bridge, the first section to N of Riccall is now the A19 Selby bypass, from there the old route is obvious on the satellite pic (it's a cycle/footpath using Naburn Swing Bridge all the way to Askham Bar).

@tbtc - I don't think there's anything in it at Penmanshiel, the diversion was done for loading gauge reasons (to allow 8' 6" containers) not speed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Look on Googlemaps or similar:

from Selby swing bridge, the first section to N of Riccall is now the A19 Selby bypass, from there the old route is obvious on the satellite pic (it's a cycle/footpath using Naburn Swing Bridge all the way to Askham Bar).

@tbtc - I don't think there's anything in it at Penmanshiel, the diversion was done for loading gauge reasons (to allow 8' 6" containers) not speed.

Thanks for that, i was looking at the wrong side of Selby *div*

I didn't realise the diversion was that big!