Drunks and beggars - what to do?

[Dormouse]

Hello everyone - longtime lurker and rail enthusiast here.

I'm currently on a Southern train from London Victoria. Before we got to Clapham Junction we had already had two incidents - a beggar, and then a drunk who was quite aggressive and intimidating towards some passengers. He walked past me and tried to provoke me into saying something, then laughed when I ignored him. There are some other people on this train but it's not packed, and as a lone woman faced with this 6ft+ drunk I felt quite worried!

What's the best thing to do in this situation? Should I have gone to get the guard or would that be a ridiculous overreaction?

 

[atclfc]

Not an over-reaction at all. If there was a guard on the train I'd have informed him/her. If not, you could always speak to the driver at the next stop. If the situation became urgent then there's always the passcom (emergency handle.)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Absolutely not! We would rather be told of things like this so something can be done about it. Use the pass comms if you have to, that's what they are there for, or use your mobile and call the police. The number is 101, and it will automatically put you through to the most local police force.

Better to use the pass comm having over reacted than not used them at all!

 

[tsr]

Alternatively, text the BTP on 61016 and they'll send someone to investigate as soon as they can. I'm told it works remarkably well if you give good, specific details - location, time of incident, description of people involved, etc.

 

[Dormouse]

These are great tips; thank you all very much! I'm going to put the numbers in my phone. Thankfully, incidents like that are rare but it's good to know what to do, especially if I'm not sure where the guard is.

 

[bronzeonion]

These are great tips; thank you all very much! I'm going to put the numbers in my phone. Thankfully, incidents like that are rare but it's good to know what to do, especially if I'm not sure where the guard is.

Walk towards rear cab and if you don't see him/her on your way there (unlikely at this time of night) he/she will be in the rear cab

 

[pendolino]

You can report anti-social behaviour (and any other crime) on Southern trains by email to [email protected]

 

[GodAtum]

As an aside, can the BTp text number (61016) be used to grass people up. For example if i believe some people sitting in 1st dont have a valid ticket, can i text the details?

 

[High Dyke]

As an aside, can the BTp text number (61016) be used to grass people up. For example if i believe some people sitting in 1st dont have a valid ticket, can i text the details?

As much as you'd like to i think they would consider that in the 'non urgent' category. Though i suppose you could try complaining to the relevant TOC...

As for the OP then by all means seek out assistance if you feel threatened, but don't put yourself in any danger. Most trains are now fitted with CCTV so an image of any possible culprit can be identified.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

As an aside, can the BTp text number (61016) be used to grass people up. For example if i believe some people sitting in 1st dont have a valid ticket, can i text the details?

would contacting the train crew not generate a more immediate response?

Can I please stress again we cannot deal with problems on the train if we don't know about it. Look for us on the train or use the pass comm if you have to.

 

[tsr]

would contacting the train crew not generate a more immediate response?

Yes, but some services are DOO (to the OP: you probably already know, but this means Driver Only Operation), and the driver may not be able to provide any practical assistance. Knocking on their cab window might sound like a good idea, but the train may start to move before you get there, and the driver may not respond.

If nobody is (being) injured or being threatened with violence/robbery/etc., the BTP text messaging service will act the same way as the non-emergency number and should allow all relevant personnel to become aware.

Naturally, if a crime is being committed or someone is being attacked, 999 is the best option, or the emergency alarm. Note, however, that on some stock, the alarm button/handle may stop the train, so if the next station is only a minute away, it may be safer just to wait a little tiny bit longer. Stopping a train between stations just means you can't get emergency services there very easily. On newer stock, the red passenger alarm generally doesn't stop the train, or can be overriden.

If the train has a guard, then they should be found first, if possible. However, on a 12-coach train (as may operate on the BML), it can be a tricky job to get to them.

And yes, I do have experience in having to deal with drunk people on trains, including moderately abusive ones, singlehandedly.

 

[A-driver]

would contacting the train crew not generate a more immediate response?

Can I please stress again we cannot deal with problems on the train if we don't know about it. Look for us on the train or use the pass comm if you have to.

Although I wouldn't recommend using the passcom because you believe that someone in first class only has a standard ticket. It's meant for emergencies which ticketing issues certainly are not! And it certainly wouldn't go down very well on a DOO service.

 

[GodAtum]

yes ticketing issues are not an emergency but i wanted to provide BTP and the TOC with intel as it happens quite regularly on a certain service.

 

[A-driver]

yes ticketing issues are not an emergency but i wanted to provide BTP and the TOC with intel as it happens quite regularly on a certain service.

Out if interest how would you know people don't have a valid ticket though?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Although I wouldn't recommend using the passcom because you believe that someone in first class only has a standard ticket. It's meant for emergencies which ticketing issues certainly are not! And it certainly wouldn't go down very well on a DOO service.

Granted older train stock pass comms work differently to the stock I'm used to and bearing in mind some trains are DOO which I didn't take in to account. Can I also suggest the train operators facebook or twitter accounts as other ways you can inform staff of what is going on. They are often monitored by control and front line staff and can therefore relay information on and summon assistance pretty quickly, even on DOO trains. I still think tho the Britishness of ourselves we put up and shut up far too much.

Pretty much everything built since privatisation the pass comms are a communication aid rather than an emergency stop. If its a chain it stops the train!!!

 

[GodAtum]

Out if interest how would you know people don't have a valid ticket though?

because they say to each other is this 1st? should we sit there?

 

[jon0844]

It's amazing how so many people upgrade themselves to first class and make sure to announce the fact very loudly.

Now, I expect some people might actually have FC tickets and just say so to wind others up, but I'd guess that's a tiny percentage. I've seen it loads of times, often when I'm in there and know it's declassified and get tempted to point out that their attempt to 'stick it to the man' is fruitless and they're just being d**ks.

On a weekend, you'll see it most of all as the kids decide to make straight for what becomes chav-class.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I "lol"d at chav-class!!!

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

A few years ago I was on a service in south london, and my carriage (455) was being ripped up and graffiti damaged by 3 teens, worrying all the passengers.
I got off and told the driver, to which he shrugged his shoulders and replied (quote) ' I don't give a **** mate...not my problem', so I never bothered again if I saw anything.
Dean

 

[scotsman]

There's always a few that just assume that any young person/anyone wearing a hoodie is a fare evader. They are the worst type - if it's not your job to check tickets, don't!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There's always a few that just assume that any young person/anyone wearing a hoodie is a fare evader. They are the worst type - if it's not your job to check tickets, don't!

My teenage sons often get queried by passengers "you don't belong here" - or checked instantly by traincrew on some I/C lines . only to gleefully show their valid all stations 1st class credentials.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

To an extent I would agree with what you are saying, however in my experience I have had more problems with ticketless cant pay won't pay already got a child ticket from late teen and hoodie types than any other demographic! As I have mentioned in a different post it is sadly the case that the significant minority create the stereotype image that all are attached to, perhaps unfairly but in some cases perhaps justified, and by that I'm not singling hoodies out. As there are other stereotypes that have far worse reputations!!!

 

[Urban Gateline]

A few years ago I was on a service in south london, and my carriage (455) was being ripped up and graffiti damaged by 3 teens, worrying all the passengers.
I got off and told the driver, to which he shrugged his shoulders and replied (quote) ' I don't give a **** mate...not my problem', so I never bothered again if I saw anything.
Dean

Ouch, was this a Southern or SWT service? As SWT have Guards on all their services so they may have been able to kick those people off or at least call for assistance!

I've seen less Graffiti and vandalism around now that 455's got CCTV when they were refurbished The old SWT 455's always had windows etched and graffiti visible!

 

[Starmill]

A few years ago I was on a service in south london, and my carriage (455) was being ripped up and graffiti damaged by 3 teens, worrying all the passengers.
I got off and told the driver, to which he shrugged his shoulders and replied (quote) ' I don't give a **** mate...not my problem', so I never bothered again if I saw anything.
Dean

This is exactly the sort of reaction I would worry about if I were in this situation!

 

[DEAN MURPHY]

It was a southern service

 

[A-driver]

Obviously that isn't the attitude and the driver shouldn't have said what he did but there isn't a lot we can actually do about that kind of thing apart from requesting to be met by the police but that isn't always possible being that they may be a long way away or busy else where etc.

I doubt very much that they would stop doing what they were doing just because the driver told them to.

 

[Wolfie]

Hello everyone - longtime lurker and rail enthusiast here.

I'm currently on a Southern train from London Victoria. Before we got to Clapham Junction we had already had two incidents - a beggar, and then a drunk who was quite aggressive and intimidating towards some passengers. He walked past me and tried to provoke me into saying something, then laughed when I ignored him. There are some other people on this train but it's not packed, and as a lone woman faced with this 6ft+ drunk I felt quite worried!

What's the best thing to do in this situation? Should I have gone to get the guard or would that be a ridiculous overreaction?

Beggars are one thing that the London Overground, large parts of which are DOO, is quite bad for...

"Sorry to disturb you but I'm just trying to get eneough money for a hostel for the night/warm meal (delete as appropriate)".

To be fair though they are completely non-aggressive.

You don't see too many drunks but do see a LOT of people ignoring Boris' booze ban as well.

 

[AeroSpace]

What to do about drunks and beggars?

1. Ban the sale and consumption of alcohol, everywhere. We wouldn't be any less happy without it. Once, smoking was the height of sophistication; over the years it has been successfully marginalised and stigmatised to the point that an outright ban would not be too far-fetched.

2. Ban the giving of money to strangers. People will then have a decent excuse not to give any money, a mental defence against any 'moral obligation' in their mind, and peer pressure not to commit an illegal act. With no prospect of receiving any handouts, beggars won't bother to beg.

 

[tsr]

Beggars are one thing that the London Overground, large parts of which are DOO, is quite bad for...

"Sorry to disturb you but I'm just trying to get eneough money for a hostel for the night/warm meal (delete as appropriate)".

To be fair though they are completely non-aggressive.

I do generally tell the conductor or station staff about these sorts of people, in case they feel any action is necessary based on the situation I describe, and I usually say whether or not I feel their behaviour is likely to lead to confrontation. If I can see there is no violence or threatening behaviour involved so far, I will clarify this, for example. Fair's fair.

It is interesting to note that on the last day of full Southern Inner SLL operation, a beggar who seemed to be behaving quite peacefully suddenly erupted into an outburst of violence at about 1615 at London Victoria, which caused the cancellation of some of the evening peak services. Thus it's clear that "non-aggressive" behaviour is not always the case!

 

[Gwenllian2001]

What to do about drunks and beggars?

1. Ban the sale and consumption of alcohol, everywhere. We wouldn't be any less happy without it. Once, smoking was the height of sophistication; over the years it has been successfully marginalised and stigmatised to the point that an outright ban would not be too far-fetched.

2. Ban the giving of money to strangers. People will then have a decent excuse not to give any money, a mental defence against any 'moral obligation' in their mind, and peer pressure not to commit an illegal act. With no prospect of receiving any handouts, beggars won't bother to beg.

Why not ban over opinionated people while you're at it?