11-12 station usage: Welsh context

[Rhydgaled]

There's a whole host of " add ons" in S Wales that need addressing especially with electrification on the way they ideally need to be done first.
Aberdare-Hirwuan
Ebbw Vale Parkway-Ebbw Vale Town
Abertillery
Passenger traind into Newport from Ebbw Vale line.
Maesteg half hourly

Maesteg half-hourly doesn't really need to be done before electrification does it? And for all of those, getting the necessary extra stock should be easier after electrification (only DfT seems to think building new DMUs is a good idea now, and then only for the Intercity routes they are electrifying).

Personally, I think Aberdare - Hirwuan needs some carefull thinking about, there's only a relatively small gap to bridge to Glyn-Neath and you meet another freight-only line which could be openned to passengers right to the edge of Swansea (near Swansea Docks / the Park & Ride site). That one might be better as a tram though, so it can run on to the current Swansea bus and rail stations.

Something else that needs considering before the wires go up is the service pattern for S. W. Wales. I think most of you already know my opinion on that...

I have to agree with one point you make, Gerald's return at 1821 from Cardiff is too late, however has the train is open access paid for by WG, I suppose the Minister can dictate what time he wants it to run.

What time would you suggest? I think some on here said 16:15 was too early, and isn't the 17:21 slot is blocked by one of the standard Cardiff - Holyhead stoppers?

Well, he "got" railways that were of direct benefit to him, he got a nice First Class carriage to take him down to Cardiff and some decent food for his journey.

Shame the same level of improvements weren't there for other lines of course...

You don't even need to go to WAG-Express levels of improvements, just making ATW use the standard class mark2s from original Gerald (plus their other mark2s) to ease crowding on Manchester trains and cascade 158s and 175s around to get 150s off stuff like the Fishguard express boat train would be nice. And it's about time Aberystwyth - Shrewsbury (Cambrian main line) got an hourly service, though I have my concerns about shorter trains as a side-effect of that, the alternate hours Cambrian Coast portion must be retained in my opinion.

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's a cost implication to adding little bits of wiring onto routes already done, as the business case will need to be made separately and a project team will have to be found whereas if its done as part of the overall Valleys programme there's saving due to the scale of the overall project.

Cambrian extra trains- I'm told ATW have presented 5 different options to WG but the only detail I have is that through trains from coast to West Midlands are retained.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

There's a whole host of " add ons" in S Wales that need addressing especially with electrification on the way they ideally need to be done first.
Aberdare-Hirwuan
Ebbw Vale Parkway-Ebbw Vale Town
Abertillery
Passenger traind into Newport from Ebbw Vale line.
Maesteg half hourly

We still have the Welshpool-Fron double track and the Dyfi Junction loop rusting away in Mid Wales with no sign of any additional services to be run on them. That's not surprisingly top of the list for me, having spent £ millions in restoring the facilities and then not using them is a waste.

It's interesting that the announcement that Hirwaun would go ahead was made just before the last Assembly election but nothing has been heard since.

It is imperative that everything is in place at Hirwaun before the start of wiring. It's only three and a half miles and the track is already there, and beyond.

There is also the vexed question of Ebbw Vale which has the trackbed clear and a space earmarked for the town station. This is only about two miles and there are no engineering challenges in the way. As it is, the line is a victim of its own success and needs redoubling in parts.

Without a substantial investment in infrastructure, I'm not sure how Abertillery would fit in but, anything's possible although considering the simple extension to Ebbw Vale has not yet been started, I'm not holding my breath.

You're right about the Cambrian but where is the rolling stock to come from?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally, I think Aberdare - Hirwuan needs some carefull thinking about, there's only a relatively small gap to bridge to Glyn-Neath and you meet another freight-only line which could be openned to passengers right to the edge of Swansea (near Swansea Docks / the Park & Ride site). That one might be better as a tram though, so it can run on to the current Swansea bus and rail stations.

I've often thought about that. The only real problem with such a scheme is, where would the train/trams run? There has been massive 'yuppie' development at the Swansea end and the road system is already saturated. I'd like to see a solution though. Any ideas?

 

[tbtc]

There is also the vexed question of Ebbw Vale which has the trackbed clear and a space earmarked for the town station. This is only about two miles and there are no engineering challenges in the way. As it is, the line is a victim of its own success and needs redoubling in parts

Obviously the EMUs running services to places like Ebbw Vale aren't known yet, but (whether we are talking three or four coaches, 20m or 23m long), that's bound to be a big capacity increase on the 15m Pacers/ 20m 150s currently in use, so I'm not sure we'll see much more redoubling.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Obviously the EMUs running services to places like Ebbw Vale aren't known yet, but (whether we are talking three or four coaches, 20m or 23m long), that's bound to be a big capacity increase on the 15m Pacers/ 20m 150s currently in use, so I'm not sure we'll see much more redoubling.

The aim is for a half hourly service on the branch which will necessitate re-doubling in part. That was planned before the line opened but was cut back to save money.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The aim is for a half hourly service on the branch which will necessitate re-doubling in part. That was planned before the line opened but was cut back to save money.

The whole thing was paired back based on the business case not being strong because of a gross underestimate of the passenger numbers expected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a cost implication to adding little bits of wiring onto routes already done, as the business case will need to be made separately and a project team will have to be found whereas if its done as part of the overall Valleys programme there's saving due to the scale of the overall project.

Cambrian extra trains- I'm told ATW have presented 5 different options to WG but the only detail I have is that through trains from coast to West Midlands are retained.

Further to this I'm told ATW are saying there fed up with presenting timetable options to welsh govt but the rail unit at welsh government is saying they've never been supplied one!

 

[Rhydgaled]

You're right about the Cambrian but where is the rolling stock to come from?

In my opinion, the Birmingham - Holyhead and Cardiff - Holyhead services (except Gerald) should terminate at Chester. The remaining Chester - Holyhead portion of these services, plus the Crewe - Chester shuttle and the Llandudno - Manchesters, would then be reworked into Holyhead/Llandudno - Manchester/Crewe services. Using some loco-hauled mark2s on some of the Manchester diagrams (if ATW can't change either the inbound or the outbound Manchester path to cut the 50min dwell at Manchester you might even have time for a loco to run-round, is there another track next to where the 175 sits that would allow this?).

My guesstimates suggest that the above would allow an hourly Birmingham - Aberystwyth service, carrying a portion to Chester in alternate hours and Pwllheli (as at present) in the other hours without increasing the number of ERTMS/ETCS-captive diagrams.

I've often thought about that. The only real problem with such a scheme is, where would the train/trams run? There has been massive 'yuppie' development at the Swansea end and the road system is already saturated. I'd like to see a solution though. Any ideas?

Sorry, 'yuppie' development???? As far as trains are concerned, the Fabian Way park & ride site looks on Google Earth to be about as near to Swansea as you can get, but track exists much of the way from there to Glyn Neath. With trams/tram-trains however you could use street running to go through SA1, across the Tawe and up to High Street station (passing under the bridge that leads to the multi-story car park next to High Street station). You'd need a lift and stairs up to the station from there. There it could link up with a Mumbles - Quadrant - High Street - Morriston Hospital tram route, though that'd probably be a lot more street running than Manchester Metrolink has I think, so I'm not sure how viable a plan it would be.

 

[Hyphen]

There it could link up with a Mumbles - Quadrant - High Street - Morriston Hospital tram route, though that'd probably be a lot more street running than Manchester Metrolink has I think, so I'm not sure how viable a plan it would be.

It's probably nothing short of a dream, but I've been wanting this ever since Swansea council started wasting money on that bloody purple thing I'm forced to use daily (which stops running after 18:30 on this end - thanks First...)

I reckon a tram route would be fairly easy to build along this stretch - most of the work has already been done as part of the Metro and has the expressway by the rail line. It stays off the main bypass roads fairly nicely going north from the city and you'd only need a few extra sets of lights to stop the tram tracks conflicting with traffic on the roundabouts. I think you'd need to place more restrictive parking regulations through Plasmarl and Morriston, sometimes the StreetCars do struggle along that stretch but obviously have the benefit of overtaking.

West of the city you could single down Oystermouth Road as far as the university to provide space for a dedicated running track. At this point I'd run it through the uni and Singleton hosp as these will attract a fair deal of traffic, with the ability for services to terminate short and turn back here. Going further round the bay may become more difficult - I would imagine you could find space to squeeze a single track in but may have to revert to road running.

This is, of course, very off topic for this thread and I'll stop hijacking - if you want to discuss further start a new one

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Good stuff - keep it coming. How about a main line diversion (avoiding Neath) - over the R Nedd and along Jersey Marine to a new main line station down by the Maritime Quarter. Knocking 15 mins off Swansea - London. Existing main line to be used for enhanced local / tram train services. Very blue sky. Correcting Mr Brunel's route of 1850. Sort of Swansea Victoria re-borne .......catering for the move towards the sea from the old "hub" around High Street ?

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Good stuff - keep it coming. How about a main line diversion (avoiding Neath) - over the R Nedd and along Jersey Marine to a new main line station down by the Maritime Quarter. Knocking 15 mins off Swansea - London. Existing main line to be used for enhanced local / tram train services. Very blue sky. Correcting Mr Brunel's route of 1850. Sort of Swansea Victoria re-borne .......catering for the move towards the sea from the old "hub" around High Street ?

That's more like it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That's more like it.

Time we corrected the orgy of road building from around 1965 in that area ....A48 and new road / river crossing etc etc. Neath by-passes , improved road towards Aberdare and Hirwaun.

Mutter , mutter.

 

[Bald Rick]

Good stuff - keep it coming. How about a main line diversion (avoiding Neath) - over the R Nedd and along Jersey Marine to a new main line station down by the Maritime Quarter. Knocking 15 mins off Swansea - London. Existing main line to be used for enhanced local / tram train services. Very blue sky. Correcting Mr Brunel's route of 1850. Sort of Swansea Victoria re-borne .......catering for the move towards the sea from the old "hub" around High Street ?

Are you in The White Lion again sir?

 

[Greenback]

Sorry, 'yuppie' development????

That is a very fair description of what has happened around the old Prince of Wales Dock, especially according to people like my father who used to work in the docks!

As far as trains are concerned, the Fabian Way park & ride site looks on Google Earth to be about as near to Swansea as you can get, but track exists much of the way from there to Glyn Neath.

I agree. I can't see any new traditional rail line getting any closer, now that all the redevelopment has taken place along the old route (with more to come).

Good stuff - keep it coming. How about a main line diversion (avoiding Neath) - over the R Nedd and along Jersey Marine to a new main line station down by the Maritime Quarter. Knocking 15 mins off Swansea - London. Existing main line to be used for enhanced local / tram train services. Very blue sky. Correcting Mr Brunel's route of 1850. Sort of Swansea Victoria re-borne .......catering for the move towards the sea from the old "hub" around High Street ?

Fantastic!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Let us hope that the existing freight tracks around Swansea and Neath can be kept going (ideally with freight !) - so that in due course they can be turned into a sensible and demand led heavy / light rail system to really make a difference. This is not the 60's - thank goodness - be great to see Swansea - Aberdare back - light rain to Mumbles and maybe Pontardulais / Pontardawe even. A detailed study would do no harm for implementation over the next 20+ years , - transport and urban development.

Amazing if you know your history that the Llanelly Dock Rail Company had passenger services operating (not always with legal rights) way before the main line was built in the 1850's. Innovation then ......

 

[Rhydgaled]

That is a very fair description of what has happened around the old Prince of Wales Dock, especially according to people like my father who used to work in the docks!

Sorry, but I've no idea what is meant by 'yuppie' development.

 

[Greenback]

Let us hope that the existing freight tracks around Swansea and Neath can be kept going (ideally with freight !) - so that in due course they can be turned into a sensible and demand led heavy / light rail system to really make a difference.

Hear, hear. I am convinced that even more enlightened times are around the corner!

This is not the 60's - thank goodness - be great to see Swansea - Aberdare back - light rain to Mumbles and maybe Pontardulais / Pontardawe even. A detailed study would do no harm for implementation over the next 20+ years , - transport and urban development.

Indeed, as a young child I used to fantasise about passenger services from Mumbles to neath and Port Talbot via the eastern side of Swansea.

In those days, though, heavy industry was everywhere in that area, which meant demand was stifled.

Now that the SA1 development has converted some of the dock areas to residential, business and leisure activities instead, a station in this part of Swansea has become more desirable.

Something will happen one day, but I fear it may take longer than 20-30 years.

Amazing if you know your history that the Llanelly Dock Rail Company had passenger services operating (not always with legal rights) way before the main line was built in the 1850's. Innovation then ......

Yes, there were quite a few railways around Llanelli that ran passenger trains 'illegally' in their early days!

Sorry, but I've no idea what is meant by 'yuppie' development.

This is the SA1 development of the old Prince of Wales dock on the east bank of the River Tawe. There are expensive apartments, restaurants, hotels and what not there.

'Yuppie' is probably a bit unfair though!

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Now that the SA1 development has converted some of the dock areas to residential, business and leisure activities instead, a station in this part of Swansea has become more desirable.

This is the SA1 development of the old Prince of Wales dock on the east bank of the River Tawe. There are expensive apartments, restaurants, hotels and what not there.

'Yuppie' is probably a bit unfair though!

Unfair, perhaps but you know what I mean.

 

[Greenback]

Unfair, perhaps but you know what I mean.

Indeed I do, it's a sentiment that my dad has expressed many times, but then he comes from Port Tennant, which has always been a down to earth working class docks community.