Why were traditional rails chosen over maglev?

[snowball]

Regardless of whether suspended by maglev or wheels, higher speeds require either super-straight routes or tilting trains. The former are difficult in a densely populated county like the UK, and I haven't heard of maglev doing the latter.

 

[HSTEd]

Regardless of whether suspended by maglev or wheels, higher speeds require either super-straight routes or tilting trains. The former are difficult in a densely populated county like the UK, and I haven't heard of maglev doing the latter.

Maglev can do superelevation to an extent that conventional rail can't even dream of (it can roll over to a far greater extent).
I believe routes for 360kph conventional rail and 500kph maglev come out as comparable.

 

[NSEFAN]

Once somebody invents a cheap, room-temperature super-conducting material or cheap nuclear fusion, only then will maglev become mainstream for mass transport. Until then, it's pretty cool but more of a gimmick than an energy efficient solution, I think.

 

[HSTEd]

The importance of energy efficiency in transport is often overstated.
Once you use grid electricity it becomes essentially irrelevent compared to capital costs of the infrastructure.

 

[dysonsphere]

Once somebody invents a cheap, room-temperature super-conducting material or cheap nuclear fusion, only then will maglev become mainstream for mass transport. Until then, it's pretty cool but more of a gimmick than an energy efficient solution, I think.

I think you're dead right there or maybe a cheap very high capicity method of electricity storage.

 

[bronzeonion]

Maglev is a good idea but I can't see it catching on

 

[edwin_m]

Maglev can do superelevation to an extent that conventional rail can't even dream of (it can roll over to a far greater extent).
I believe routes for 360kph conventional rail and 500kph maglev come out as comparable.

Is this by tilting the train via the magnets or simply by canting the track? If the latter, the amount may be limited by comfort issues should a train have to stop on the superelevated section.

 

[rebmcr]

Once you use grid electricity it becomes essentially irrelevent compared to capital costs of the infrastructure.

Apparently not in Shanghai.

 

[snowball]

Is this by tilting the train via the magnets or simply by canting the track? If the latter, the amount may be limited by comfort issues should a train have to stop on the superelevated section.

In theory (grossly oversimplified theory - I know very little about maglev practice) I suppose you could have a train suspended below a circular-section beam, then each train would passively tilt by the right amount for its speed.

Among the types of problem I can imagine, one is avoiding hitting the beam supports.

Perhaps the beam could be supported magnetically...

 

[HSTEd]

Is this by tilting the train via the magnets or simply by canting the track? If the latter, the amount may be limited by comfort issues should a train have to stop on the superelevated section.

The completely computer controlled nature of the system should make it possible to avoid stopping on the superelevated sections except in emergencies.

Just make the train stop slightly faster than normal service braking or slightly slower so it doesn't end up on the curve.
The faster acceleration/decelleration should keep speeds on the curve up reducing the comfort issue even if the train is just starting from a standing start.

 

[gordonthemoron]

In theory (grossly oversimplified theory - I know very little about maglev practice) I suppose you could have a train suspended below a circular-section beam, then each train would passively tilt by the right amount for its speed.

Among the types of problem I can imagine, one is avoiding hitting the beam supports.

Perhaps the beam could be supported magnetically...

That sounds quite like the Wuppertal Schwebebahn

 

[stanley T]

The operational maglev route is in Shanghai, it supposedly connects the centre of the city to the airport but does no such thing because that would be too expensive.

Yeah, it leaves you stuck in Pudong on the wrong side of the river from the centre, from which you have to take a cab or the metro. It's a gimmick from the new Pudong airport, it's quite fun to take, but as soon as the train reaches 400km/hr it has to slow down.

Some of us here even question the value of HS2, given that 140mph is possible on existing lines, and the main arguments for it have to do with capacity, not speed. Rail outcompetes car and plane for journey times in the 100-300 mile zone and beyond that (e.g London - Scotland) the market is small compared to investment costs, and air will certainly be far cheaper than maglev as well as more flexible.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Even more amusing when you consider the "Father of Maglev" was British.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Laithwaite

Yes he gave my graduating speech. He was educated at Kirkham Grammar School and Imperial College London. Exactly where I was educated. He was a great guy and a contemporary of my father.

 

[starrymarkb]

I see the Japanese Maglev has slipped to 2045 now... I get the feeling it's not going to be built...

 

[Bald Rick]

Maglev is a good idea but I can't see it catching on

You might say it has lost it's attraction.

TAXI for Mr Rick!!!

 

[edwin_m]

You might say it has lost it's attraction.

TAXI for Mr Rick!!!

Putting it a bit strongly I think. Surely it's still up in the air?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It does seem that capacity is more important than speed. Weren't we all supposed to be flying supersonic by now ?

 

[HSTEd]

Supersonic passenger aircraft were stopped from going mainstream by the fact that energy in the form of liquid fuels is expensive.

Energy in the form of electricity is extremely cheap by comparison, meaning that running faster is more feasible as the costs of doing so are lower.

 

[Eagle]

Supersonic passenger aircraft were stopped from going mainstream by the fact that energy in the form of liquid fuels is expensive.

Energy in the form of electricity is extremely cheap by comparison, meaning that running faster is more feasible as the costs of doing so are lower.

So what you're saying is if we can find a way of making planes run on grid electricity we're sorted

 

[HSTEd]

So what you're saying is if we can find a way of making planes run on grid electricity we're sorted

Pretty much

 

[bnsf734]

Wasn't it only two track when converted to conventional running (2003 according to Wikipedia)?

I can definitely remember there being 2 maglev tracks, the second track being added later - if you look at the beams you can see the slight differences between the 2 lines. It was not often that both Maglev cars would be running though, 1 car was usually parked halfway along the track above the maintenance shed. If the Maglev car needed to visit the maintenance shed then a mobile crane had to be hired to lift it off the track!

Great photograph of the Maglev - things look a bit different now!

 

[HSTEd]

I see the Japanese Maglev has slipped to 2045 now... I get the feeling it's not going to be built...

The Osaka to Nagoya Section has slipped to 2045.
Completion of the first phase is still projected in 2027.


And if you are building a several hundred kilometre long line that will be 60% in tunnels... I would expect delays.

 

[bb21]

Yeah, it leaves you stuck in Pudong on the wrong side of the river from the centre, from which you have to take a cab or the metro. It's a gimmick from the new Pudong airport, it's quite fun to take, but as soon as the train reaches 400km/hr it has to slow down.

Some of us here even question the value of HS2, given that 140mph is possible on existing lines, and the main arguments for it have to do with capacity, not speed. Rail outcompetes car and plane for journey times in the 100-300 mile zone and beyond that (e.g London - Scotland) the market is small compared to investment costs, and air will certainly be far cheaper than maglev as well as more flexible.

It was meant as a testbed for the technology for medium-distance transportation. As for why it terminated in the middle of nowhere, let's just say that it was "poorly planned" , and there were a lot of different interests being juggled and balanced. The ironic thing now is that to get to the city centre, you still have to change onto Metro Line 2 after alighting from the Maglev, which now originates from the airport itself (sort of).

The original plan was to extend this line to the city's other airport, which the next step being extension to Hangzhou, duplicating one of the busiest railway lines in the country. The ultimate objective was to see the Shanghai-Beijing railway line duplicated by Maglev to slash travel times between the financial capital and the political capital of the country.

Lots of reasons why these plans are now no longer being pursued: incompatibility with the existing system, public opposition due to concerns over magnetic field exposure, lack of substantial speed advantage over conventional high-speed technology, existing 31km line being prohibitively expensive to build, concerns over safety (especially fire safety) while operating at full speed ...

Maglev for the UK, no please.

 

[John07]

The Birmingham International to Birmingham Airport MAGLEV was hardly a success.

 

[The Ham]

One other big advantage of conventional rail over meglev is that there is the option of sending a Thunderbird Loco out to recover any broken down train or recover an electric train if there is a major power outage.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Despite numerous applications worldwide, Maglev technology has not really proved itself other than in a few limited cases- each with a very specific 'end-to-end', linear operation. There's no way a Maglev network as complicated and varied as our current national rail network would ever be viable. Conventional railways may be 'old-tech' but they're flexible.

 

[Kali]

There's no standards in Maglev either, unlike existing conventional rail.

Maglev for goods is fairly pointless; I would see the best use being a point-to-point long distance link where you just load an entire conventional train onboard, but there's little reason not to fly instead. If there's a huge increase in efficiency then it might make some sense from an environmental point of view to look at replacing medium haul flights, I guess. It'd have to be quite an increase to cover the cost of all that new infrastructure...

Nobody let SSTs fly supersonic over land either ( other than the really early years of Concorde, I can still remember sonic booms over the Westcountry ), that didn't help in the slightest. We've moved on anyway, sub-orbital hypersonic is the thing to look at for long-haul.

 

[eps200]

Maglev may be obsolete as the future exotic version of trains soon anyway. Elon musks hyperloop is likely some variation on a ground effect train
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_train

A concrete tube with conductor rail along the roof is far cheaper than any maglevs track will ever be have some rubber wheels on the bottom and stations can be negotiated the same way an aircraft taxis. junctions are far less insane as well.

Also allows other things maglev doesn't like stacking the tubes or putting solar panels all the way along the top.

Heck the tube can probably be any smooth robust material.

 

[BananaRepublic]

.....I can still remember sonic booms over the Westcountry.....

Those sonic booms came from Concorde's shock wave as it flew down the English Channel (to or from Paris), or down the Bristol Channel (to or from London) on its way to/from the transAtlantic supersonic route structure.
There was no supersonic operation over land.

 

[Kali]

Ground-effect tube trains might be a little counter-productive - it's the train's speed relative to the air that determines the available lift. Still, to keep it stable you just want some sort of U shape, and you could probably use conventional rails at lower speeds.

Anyone know what it costs to lay linear motors?