The State Of Rail Travel In Lincolnshire

[edwin_m]

I'm still not altogether sure about Doncaster as a destination though. If resuorces ever become available for augmentation of the Gainsborough to Doncaster service then personally I would suggest a general improvement of Lincoln to Doncaster rather than the stopping service under discussion at present from Cleethorpes via Brigg. There are a lot of ifs here but I would suggest that any reversion to six day operation of the Brigg line would best be as part of a general uplift of services over a wider area. There seems to be a desire for a third path each hour for a fast train between Sheffield and Manchester and also for a second train each hour between Retford and Sheffield; should this ever come about I would expect that the opportunity could then be taken to review the case for Brigg as a part of any revisions. In this respect could not Lincoln gain a through Manchester service in place of the current Sheffield workings calling at Saxilby, Gainsborough Lea Road, Retford, Worksop and possibly one of the Kivetons only with the additional Retford service, some of which could then extend to serve Cleethorpes via Brigg, calling at all stations?
It might just fit in with North West/ North Transpennine Electrification and rolling stock released as this advances; the small 170 fleet springs to mind, for use on the Manchester services, with the stopping services catered for by the consequent release of units currently employed between Lincoln and Sheffield.

That seems eminently sensible to me. A Doncaster-Brigg-Cleethorpes would have to survive on intermediate traffic as the hourly TPE will be faster and more comfortable. Manchester-Lincoln plus Sheffield-Retford-(Brigg-Cleethorpes) creates some new opportunities and also avoids conflicts around Doncaster. However there may be a desire to run more trains between Gainsborough and Doncaster if the Robin Hood Airport station is still an aspiration.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Can't see this happening but I'd settle for one around 08.00 from Cleethorpes and a return 18.00ish from Sheffield. It might just begin to be a valued local amenity were this the case.

I'm still not altogether sure about Doncaster as a destination though. If resources ever become available for augmentation of the Gainsborough to Doncaster service then personally I would suggest a general improvement of Lincoln to Doncaster rather than the stopping service under discussion at present from Cleethorpes via Brigg. There are a lot of ifs here but I would suggest that any reversion to six day operation of the Brigg line would best be as part of a general uplift of services over a wider area. There seems to be a desire for a third path each hour for a fast train between Sheffield and Manchester and also for a second train each hour between Retford and Sheffield; should this ever come about I would expect that the opportunity could then be taken to review the case for Brigg as a part of any revisions. In this respect could not Lincoln gain a through Manchester service in place of the current Sheffield workings calling at Saxilby, Gainsborough Lea Road, Retford, Worksop and possibly one of the Kivetons only with the additional Retford service, some of which could then extend to serve Cleethorpes via Brigg, calling at all stations?
It might just fit in with North West/ North Transpennine Electrification and rolling stock released as this advances; the small 170 fleet springs to mind, for use on the Manchester services, with the stopping services catered for by the consequent release of units currently employed between Lincoln and Sheffield.

That seems eminently sensible to me. A Doncaster-Brigg-Cleethorpes would have to survive on intermediate traffic as the hourly TPE will be faster and more comfortable. Manchester-Lincoln plus Sheffield-Retford-(Brigg-Cleethorpes) creates some new opportunities and also avoids conflicts around Doncaster. However there may be a desire to run more trains between Gainsborough and Doncaster if the Robin Hood Airport station is still an aspiration.

We think the way the Department of Transport are thinking is that as from 2016/17 the Sheffield Midland - Gainsborough Central - Cleethorpes service will be no more, it looks like the thinking from the DfT is that trains and crews will be based at Cleethorpes, at present TPE crew drive the local Northern Rail Barton line services so the thinking is they will drive the services via Gainsborough.

The reason Doncaster has been picked out is to open up the line to better connections and the future plans by South Yorkshire PTE for a station near Doncaster Airport, their is a back up plan of finishing trains at Retford if Doncaster falls though.

The issue who will be running the local passgenger services from Sheffield Midland - Retford/Lincoln is still up in the air, a survey by South Yorkshire PTE states that from the start of the new Northern Rail franchise an every 30 minute service is needed between Sheffield Midland and Worksop to cope with demand.

 

[wbbminerals]

Such a train to Doncaster would presumably be easy to fit in at DON as it could be put into platform 2, which seems to see little use.

 

[Tomnick]

There's no signalled route for passenger trains into P2 - anything arriving from Lincoln must do so on the West Slow lines.

 

[David Barrett]

Even if it was possible I doubt that much use would be made of the facility on account of conflicting moves across and occupation of the main line as far as Black Carr Junction, which is why the overbridge there was resurrected in the 1970s as the Lincoln Flyover.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The reason Doncaster has been picked out is to open up the line to better connections and the future plans by South Yorkshire PTE for a station near Doncaster Airport, their is a back up plan of finishing trains at Retford if Doncaster falls though.

I actually get a sense of unease about this. If it all boils down to the promotion of Robin Hood Airport then those of us who are interested in the everyday use of the local railway might well end up disappointed. There has been mention of Tees Side Airport Station on this forum and, with my observation of Humberside it does lead me to think that regional airports can be difficult to serve by public transport, especially rail, where the site of any station may be remote from the airport terminal, air traffic is relatively light and the dispersed nature of airport passengers over a wide area makes for low volume connecting flows to the airport. Perhaps a station at Finningley would be better sited for local use, along with a train service which permits daily journeys to/from work etc. Given that there is a reasonably frequent bus service from Doncaster which runs to the airport terminal I would suggest that a railway station built to serve the airport alone would be equally as inconvenient for both airport and the local population and turn out to be a white elephant.

Even though the Brigg line has not had a regular daily service for over twenty years the traditional line of thought as to its usefulness for local and longer distance connections still seems to exist with people seeming to really want the restoration of the service through to Sheffield, or at least with reasonable connections at Retford or Worksop to enable this and to take advantage of other opportunities that calls at these places may enable.

Even I occasionally use the Saturday service for this very reason and find that I am not alone in this respect, I'd go for the back up plan but it is the DfT that we are talking about isn't it?

 

[Tomnick]

Given that one of the major sticking points is the shortage of rolling stock, then I'd suggest that running through to Sheffield would be the most practical option anyway. The Doncaster shuttle that the MPs etc propose would require one unit allocated to it for the whole day, whereas a useful Sheffield service of sorts could be provided by extending a morning peak service from Retford/Worksop into Sheffield to start back from Cleethorpes, extending the evening peak Retford turnback to continue to Cleethorpes, and providing two or three round trips from Sheffield using - if any are available - spare units between the peaks and later in the evening.

 

[David Barrett]

Given that one of the major sticking points is the shortage of rolling stock, then I'd suggest that running through to Sheffield would be the most practical option anyway. The Doncaster shuttle that the MPs etc propose would require one unit allocated to it for the whole day, whereas a useful Sheffield service of sorts could be provided by extending a morning peak service from Retford/Worksop into Sheffield to start back from Cleethorpes, extending the evening peak Retford turnback to continue to Cleethorpes, and providing two or three round trips from Sheffield using - if any are available - spare units between the peaks and later in the evening.

Probably as pragmatic a starting point as any, in principle the current Parliamentary with some practical additions to make it useful. I did some back of an envelope scribblings based on this very idea some time ago and given the constraints I thought that such a service could be possible and still accomadate some connections at Retford and Worksop. A bit of a compromise and not ideal in every way but much better than what we now have.

 

[tbtc]

Given that one of the major sticking points is the shortage of rolling stock, then I'd suggest that running through to Sheffield would be the most practical option anyway. The Doncaster shuttle that the MPs etc propose would require one unit allocated to it for the whole day, whereas a useful Sheffield service of sorts could be provided by extending a morning peak service from Retford/Worksop into Sheffield to start back from Cleethorpes, extending the evening peak Retford turnback to continue to Cleethorpes, and providing two or three round trips from Sheffield using - if any are available - spare units between the peaks and later in the evening.

Sounds sensible.

The Sheffield - Pontefract - York service survives because it can use a DMU that would otherwise be "spare" off peak at Sheffield Midland. You can squeeze in a couple of return trips during the daytime without stealing the unit from when its busy at rush hour.

Something similar may work for the Brigg line.

A dedicated shuttle designed to tick a couple of boxes ("how can we make Robin Hood airport look like it has a proper train service?" / "how can we give Brigg a weekday train service even if its not to where people want to go") seems pointless. It'll end up empty which will spoil anyone trying to reitroduce a "proper" service.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Such a train to Doncaster would presumably be easy to fit in at DON as it could be put into platform 2, which seems to see little use.

There's no signalled route for passenger trains into P2 - anything arriving from Lincoln must do so on the West Slow lines.

I have seen the EMT Doncaster - Gainsborough - Lincoln - Peterborough leave from both platform 2 & 5

Even I occasionally use the Saturday service for this very reason and find that I am not alone in this respect, I'd go for the back up plan but it is the DfT that we are talking about isn't it?

If I need to go to Gainsborough on a Saturday I will always catch the Cleethorpes Service as Gainsborough Central is bang in the middle of the town, im sure our group will get more infomation from the DfT when they know what their doing

Given that one of the major sticking points is the shortage of rolling stock, then I'd suggest that running through to Sheffield would be the most practical option anyway. The Doncaster shuttle that the MPs etc propose would require one unit allocated to it for the whole day, whereas a useful Sheffield service of sorts could be provided by extending a morning peak service from Retford/Worksop into Sheffield to start back from Cleethorpes, extending the evening peak Retford turnback to continue to Cleethorpes, and providing two or three round trips from Sheffield using - if any are available - spare units between the peaks and later in the evening.

But the problem with running from Sheffield Midland is shortage of stock, we maybe talking about 2016 onwards here but myself and a number of people on here have been slagged off for even suggesting this in the past, this is why the suggestion of a shuttle service from Cleethorpes to Doncaster or Retford was suggested by a number of councils on the route.

The feedback from West Lindsey & North Lincolnshire Councils are that passgengers at Gainsborough , Kirton & Brigg want to travel West towards Grimsby/Cleethorpes, the Doncaster option is their for better connections for the ECML than is provided at Retford

One suggestion that West Lindsey Council asked Northern Rail was could the Sheffield Midland - Retford services be exstended to Gainsborough Central or run the Saturday Only Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes service as far as Barnetby where passgengers could connect with TPE services.

The Answers were the Cleethorpes services can not be touched as its the DfT that sets the services & exstending the Retford service would need the green light from Northern Rail's stakeholders

Something similar may work for the Brigg line.

A dedicated shuttle designed to tick a couple of boxes ("how can we make Robin Hood airport look like it has a proper train service?" / "how can we give Brigg a weekday train service even if its not to where people want to go") seems pointless. It'll end up empty which will spoil anyone trying to reitroduce a "proper" service.

Im in shock are you saying this line needs a " proper " service ?

 

[Tomnick]

I have seen the EMT Doncaster - Gainsborough - Lincoln - Peterborough leave from both platform 2 & 5

Well done - so have I. If you try reading my post again, properly this time, you'll see that I said that they can't arrive at platform 2 in service, not unless special arrangements have been made at least. Departing from there would normally involve shunting from elsewhere in the station - when I saw it happen, it arrived at platform 3 via the ladder through the middle of the station, then shunted to the bay via the south end of the station.

But the problem with running from Sheffield Midland is shortage of stock, we maybe talking about 2016 onwards here but myself and a number of people on here have been slagged off for even suggesting this in the past, this is why the suggestion of a shuttle service from Cleethorpes to Doncaster or Retford was suggested by a number of councils on the route.

Ah, you didn't bother reading that bit of my post properly either then. I proposed a way in which you might be able to run a half-decent service using existing resources - units that are already providing peak services between Retford and Sheffield, and then a couple of round trips using spare stock between the peaks. Your shuttle to Doncaster will require a unit for the whole day, including through both peaks when there's little spare capacity in the fleet.

The feedback from West Lindsey & North Lincolnshire Councils are that passgengers at Gainsborough , Kirton & Brigg want to travel West towards Grimsby/Cleethorpes, the Doncaster option is their for better connections for the ECML than is provided at Retford

I've not got much confidence in the feedback from the councils if they really think that Grimsby and Cleethorpes are to the West . I'll concede that my proposal doesn't cater for any peak flow into Grimsby - the best you could hope for would be an 0830-ish departure from Sheffield, I think. Any attempt to run anything earlier on the Up would need a unit pinching from Sheffield's morning peak - and then you're back to balancing the relative need. Perhaps that's the sort of thing that could follow if a limited Sheffield service proved successful.

One suggestion that West Lindsey Council asked Northern Rail was could the Sheffield Midland - Retford services be exstended to Gainsborough Central

Wouldn't it be better to dispense with the morning Sheffield - Retford (which isn't far away from a Lincoln train anyway) and use the unit to instead work through from Cleethorpes to pick up the rest of its diagram at Retford? Similarly in the evening, the back working from Retford appears to achieve very little other than a positioning move for the unit back to Sheffield.

or run the Saturday Only Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes service as far as Barnetby where passgengers could connect with TPE services.

Why?! You might get an extra round trip out of it somehow, but I don't think that's worth the loss of a through service. Would I want to be turfed out onto a cold platform at Barnetby to wait for a TPE train forward if I was an ordinary punter? Probably not!?

 

[tbtc]

the problem with running from Sheffield Midland is shortage of stock, we maybe talking about 2016 onwards here but myself and a number of people on here have been slagged off for even suggesting this in the past, this is why the suggestion of a shuttle service from Cleethorpes to Doncaster or Retford was suggested by a number of councils on the route

Yes, there's a shortage of stock, which is why I can't understand where this "spare" 153 (to run a Doncaster - Brigg - Cleethorpes service) can be magicked up from.

If there is a spare 153 then wouldn't it be better used to enhance capacity on existing services (given the number of complaints from people who have to stand on routes)?

One suggestion that West Lindsey Council asked Northern Rail was could the Sheffield Midland - Retford services be exstended to Gainsborough Central or run the Saturday Only Sheffield Midland - Cleethorpes service as far as Barnetby where passgengers could connect with TPE services

Cut the Saturday service so that it becomes just Sheffield - Barnetby? That's going to alienate anyone planning a day out at the coast from South Yorkshire/ North Nottinghamshire. What a strange suggestion.

Im in shock are you saying this line needs a " proper " service ?

I'm saying that if you want a proper service (rather than a box-ticker) then starting out with a badly conceived service (which doesn't serve Retford/ Worksop/ Sheffield, doesn't connect with Lincoln services as it uses a different Gainsborough station...) is going to set things further back and make it harder to justify what you really want.

Wouldn't it be better to dispense with the morning Sheffield - Retford (which isn't far away from a Lincoln train anyway) and use the unit to instead work through from Cleethorpes to pick up the rest of its diagram at Retford? Similarly in the evening, the back working from Retford appears to achieve very little other than a positioning move for the unit back to Sheffield

Agreed - sounds like a sensible suggestion (not sure what its doing on this thread though!)

 

[David Barrett]

the DfT when they know what their doing

Wink indeed; the DfT is many things although I have never, in forty odd years (and some of them have been odd), seen any accusations of competence directed that way. Even other government departments have their doubts and suspicions.

 

[DarloRich]

But the problem with running from Sheffield Midland is shortage of stock, we maybe talking about 2016 onwards here but myself and a number of people on here have been slagged off for even suggesting this in the past, this is why the suggestion of a shuttle service from Cleethorpes to Doncaster or Retford was suggested by a number of councils on the route.

No body has been slagged off.

What has happened is potentially fanciful suggestions have been tested and debated. That debate has flushed out a sensible potential service enhancement that could be arranged quite quickly and easily to offer passengers better journey options.


As i have said many times i would like to see a sensible business plan for service improvements. I would also like to see some background research into why these services would be of use.

I still maintain that any additional services will be a the expense of someone else, even come 2016. At that time the pressure will be on the franchisee to cascade any rolling stock freed up by electrification/northern hub to strengthen the services into the cities, in particular Leeds & Manchester.

Your best bet may be to show a case for such a service to and from Sheffield.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

You might be able to run a half-decent service using existing resources -units that are already providing peak services between Retford and Sheffield, and then a couple of round trips using spare stock between the peaks. Your shuttle to Doncaster will require a unit for the whole day, including through both peaks when there's little spare capacity in the fleet.

Any attempt to run anything earlier on the Up would need a unit pinching from Sheffield's morning peak - and then you're back to balancing the relative need. Perhaps that's the sort of thing that could follow if a limited Sheffield service proved successful.

Good idea, however you have to be carefull that we dont have a timetable like we have now on a Saturday, which to be honest is no use to anyone, but credit to passgengers on the route they still use the service.

The main sticking point is their has to be a service that arrives into Grimsby/Cleethorpes before 9am and leaves after 5pm.

At present its 3 trains each way on a Saturday, even if this was to be made 4 trains each way by the DfT is would give a greater flexibility in the timetable and not as one MP has said run an anti social timetable.

Yes, there's a shortage of stock, which is why I can't understand where this "spare" 153 (to run a Doncaster - Brigg - Cleethorpes service) can be magicked up from.

If there is a spare 153 then wouldn't it be better used to enhance capacity on existing services (given the number of complaints from people who have to stand on routes)?

The Doncaster - Brigg - Cleethorpes 153 service is Plan B, as we have said the DfT want some sort of TPE service to stop at Brigg & Gainsborough Central, as before we have not a clue where the train will be going to as the DfT have not told us yet.

We do hear rumours that it could form another Manchester via Sheffield Midland service with the Norwich - Liverpool services not calling at Sheffield Midland, but like I said that could be just rumours were all waiting for more info from the DfT

As i have said many times i would like to see a sensible business plan for service improvements. I would also like to see some background research into why these services would be of use.

Your best bet may be to show a case for such a service to and from Sheffield.

North Linconshire Council were in the process of publishing a business plan which you could read online, however due to the DfT moving the Northern Rail franchise and then finding out that they want TPE to run on the line as their prefered option then the plan was put on the back burner, if the TPE services fall flat then Plan B will come into force and the business plan will be in the public domain and I will put the link up on here.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Over the weekend our group has been given some feedback via Nottinghamshire County Council on their views of the railway services in Worksop and Retford and the improvements they would like to see.

They are looking at either Worksop or Retford as been a Hub Interchange from 2017 onwards, their are plans to move Worksop bus station nearer to the railway station and with regards to rail services they outline the following services they would like to see.


Sheffield - Retford service, working with South Yorkshire PTE to provide funding for an every 30 minute service during the day.

Nottingham - Worksop - Gainsborough Lea Road - Lincoln to run every hour.

The " Brigg " line would be provided by either the "new" TPE service from Cleethorpes that the Department for Transport are in favour of or Plan B, the Cleethorpes shuttle service which would terminate at Retford Low Level instead of Doncaster.

 

[Tomnick]

So Lincoln stands to lose its direct Sheffield service, and instead gains another service to Nottingham via a not-so-scenic tour of most of North Notts? If they're proposing a regular service terminating at Retford, why not provide a Brigg service as an extension of some of these rather than a dedicated shuttle (which might require more units overall, would be difficult to diagram traincrew for and, most of all, requires a change of train to reach Sheffield)...?

 

[clagmonster]

Sheffield - Retford service, working with South Yorkshire PTE to provide funding for an every 30 minute service during the day.

Would one of the two hourly services run through to Lincoln as at present, or would the full service terminate at Retford? If the latter, that is quite a blow.

Nottingham - Worksop - Gainsborough Lea Road - Lincoln to run every hour.

Interesting idea. Hopefully, if an hourly Sheffield-Lincoln service is retained, trains would be as near to half-hourly as possible on the Worksop-Lincoln section. Is there much market for journieslike Mansfield-Lincoln, and Nottingham-Gainsborough? Certainly end to end passengers would use the existing service via Newark.

The " Brigg " line would be provided by either the "new" TPE service from Cleethorpes that the Department for Transport are in favour of or Plan B, the Cleethorpes shuttle service which would terminate at Retford Low Level instead of Doncaster.

I have to say that I agree with Tomnick in that if terminating at Retford, it would be much more efficient to merge the service with a Retford-Sheffield. Indeed, terminating at Retford from the east will be operationally difficult.

 

[tbtc]

So Lincoln stands to lose its direct Sheffield service, and instead gains another service to Nottingham via a not-so-scenic tour of most of North Notts? If they're proposing a regular service terminating at Retford, why not provide a Brigg service as an extension of some of these rather than a dedicated shuttle (which might require more units overall, would be difficult to diagram traincrew for and, most of all, requires a change of train to reach Sheffield)...?

Don't worry, none of this will happen

 

[David Barrett]

What is it with authority? A situation arises which warrants attention, after which the situation becomes a problem. Further attention to the problem more or less ensures that the problem becomes a crisis after which any further attention turns the whole thing into a farce.

TBTC, I hope that you are correct but there is, within me, a niggle that some of our leaders might just be serious about this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, terminating at Retford from the east will be operationally difficult.

It wasn't, until the turnround siding between L.L. and Whisker Hill was removed that is.

 

[Tomnick]

It certainly looks like just another fantasy proposal, perhaps looking nice on a map but utterly useless in practice. I do wonder whether this 'group' has any understanding of the nature of the demand, let alone the niceties of railway operations. If the proposal for an additional Sheffield - Retford turnback in every hour ever amounts to anything, that'd be the perfect opportunity to provide a Brigg service of sorts as an extension of some of these. It looks like this group seems determined to miss that opportunity to instead go for a recast of the whole lot, that'll require plenty more resources and make the service next to useless east of Retford.

 

[ashworth]

Over the weekend our group has been given some feedback via Nottinghamshire County Council on their views of the railway services in Worksop and Retford and the improvements they would like to see.

They are looking at either Worksop or Retford as been a Hub Interchange from 2017 onwards, their are plans to move Worksop bus station nearer to the railway station and with regards to rail services they outline the following services they would like to see.


Sheffield - Retford service, working with South Yorkshire PTE to provide funding for an every 30 minute service during the day.

Nottingham - Worksop - Gainsborough Lea Road - Lincoln to run every hour.

The " Brigg " line would be provided by either the "new" TPE service from Cleethorpes that the Department for Transport are in favour of or Plan B, the Cleethorpes shuttle service which would terminate at Retford Low Level instead of Doncaster.

This will never happen because the hourly through service to Sheffield from Lincoln is too important a route for Lincoln to lose. I think there would be quite an outcry from the people in Lincoln if this happened.

I fully understand why Nottinghamshire County Council are suggesting this. Right from the beginning they wanted the Robin Hood Line services to terminate at Retford rather than Worksop to provide the people of Retford with a direct train link to their county town. However, as it would require an extra unit, it was found to be too expensive, and the service was terminated at Worksop instead.

What Nottinghamshire County Council really should be doing is co-operating with South Yorkshire to provide a 30 minute frequency between Worksop and Sheffield where it is really needed. This could best be done by extending the current hourly Nottingham-Mansfield-Worksop service to Sheffield. Even the proposed 30 minute Retford-Sheffield service would improve the situation, especially if the number of stops between Worksop and Sheffield were reduced on one service each hour.
If Nottinghamshire were really seriously thinking about the transport needs of the people of North Nottinghamshire they would do this to provide a much needed service from Mansfield and North Notts to Sheffield without the 45 minute wait for a connection at Worksop. But of course they would rather run a service to/from Retford to try to attract more people into Nottingham as they don't really want the people of North Notts to take their shopping and leisure trips into Sheffield/Meadowhall instead.

 

[PhillH]

I am impressed by the depth of knowledge exhibited by many contributors on this thread. The "wish list" often contains reference to the Brigg Line which is my particular area of interest. Whilst I would back any sensible proposal for a re-invigoration of this moribund service I do feel that the present "basket case" of a Saturday only service would need to provide encouragement to T.O.C.s thro' an uplift in loadings.
For the uninitiated here are some comparison figures: -
09.28 7 on 0 off 09.35 4 on 0 off
11.44 1 on 1 off 11.28 4 on 2 off
13.26 0 on 5 off 13.01 5 on 2 off
15.53 0 on 2 off 15.23 0 on 5 off
17.28 1 on 4 off 20.05 0 on 2 off
19.07 0 on 5 off(est.) 20.59 0 on 1 off

Total - 26 Total - 25

The observant will note that the train times differ. That is because nearly 23 years separates the two tables. The first is for Sat. 18 th. May 2013 and the second for Mon. 23 rd. July 1990. So nothing much has changed! These figures are typical and I think bear tribute to extremely patient train operators. We are lucky to have any sort of service!
The only salvation as far as I can see, lies with the establishment of a "community Rail Partnership" such as the "Friends of the Barton Line"

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Would one of the two hourly services run through to Lincoln as at present, or would the full service terminate at Retford? If the latter, that is quite a blow.


Interesting idea. Hopefully, if an hourly Sheffield-Lincoln service is retained, trains would be as near to half-hourly as possible on the Worksop-Lincoln section. Is there much market for journieslike Mansfield-Lincoln, and Nottingham-Gainsborough? Certainly end to end passengers would use the existing service via Newark.

I have to say that I agree with Tomnick in that if terminating at Retford, it would be much more efficient to merge the service with a Retford-Sheffield. Indeed, terminating at Retford from the east will be operationally difficult.

The idea from " Nottinghamshire County Council " is that all Sheffield services finish at Retford and passgengers for Lincoln would either change at Worksop or Retford

It certainly looks like just another fantasy proposal, perhaps looking nice on a map but utterly useless in practice. I do wonder whether this 'group' has any understanding of the nature of the demand, let alone the niceties of railway operations. If the proposal for an additional Sheffield - Retford turnback in every hour ever amounts to anything, that'd be the perfect opportunity to provide a Brigg service of sorts as an extension of some of these. It looks like this group seems determined to miss that opportunity to instead go for a recast of the whole lot, that'll require plenty more resources and make the service next to useless east of Retford.

The proposal that we have popped on here is from " Nottinghamshire County Council " and has nothing to do with us, the post is for people do debate the rights and wrongs of it and to keep people in the loop so to speak on what is happening.

I am impressed by the depth of knowledge exhibited by many contributors on this thread. The "wish list" often contains reference to the Brigg Line which is my particular area of interest. Whilst I would back any sensible proposal for a re-invigoration of this moribund service I do feel that the present "basket case" of a Saturday only service would need to provide encouragement to T.O.C.s thro' an uplift in loadings.
For the uninitiated here are some comparison figures: -
09.28 7 on 0 off 09.35 4 on 0 off
11.44 1 on 1 off 11.28 4 on 2 off
13.26 0 on 5 off 13.01 5 on 2 off
15.53 0 on 2 off 15.23 0 on 5 off
17.28 1 on 4 off 20.05 0 on 2 off
19.07 0 on 5 off(est.) 20.59 0 on 1 off

Total - 26 Total - 25

The observant will note that the train times differ. That is because nearly 23 years separates the two tables. The first is for Sat. 18 th. May 2013 and the second for Mon. 23 rd. July 1990. So nothing much has changed! These figures are typical and I think bear tribute to extremely patient train operators. We are lucky to have any sort of service!
The only salvation as far as I can see, lies with the establishment of a "community Rail Partnership" such as the "Friends of the Barton Line"

The problem with the Brigg line figures is that even when the weekday service ran ( pre 1993 ) the trains ran to a anti social timetable ( as a number of MP's on the route have said ) even one of the stations on the line " Gainsborough Central " has been described as something you would find in Beirut in the latest issue of RAIL magazine.

Again, as we have posted before the Department for Transport are all for some sort of a "new" TPE service from Cleethorpes via Gainsborough Central, the ideas of either a Cleethorpes shuttle or changes to the Lincoln/Robin Hood services are just ideas that are been drawn up by County Councils on the route as a back up idea

The Friends of the Barton Line people are in our group, they also keep an eye on the " Brigg " line, the line itself can not become a " community " line as it has freight traffic running over it so it does not meet the criteria, however The FOTBL details are to be printed in the new Northern Rail timetable for the Sheffield Midland - Lincoln-Cleethorpes services in due course so that people can get involved.

 

[Tomnick]

The idea from " Nottinghamshire County Council " is that all Sheffield services finish at Retford and passgengers for Lincoln would either change at Worksop or Retford

Well I think it's quite possibly the daftest idea I've ever come across, and that includes various fantasies involving the Barton branch. I'm sure that Lincoln would strongly resist any attempt to abolish its through service to Sheffield, and on that basis the proposal probably wouldn't get far anyway. I just struggle with the logic of cutting back the Lincoln service to Retford then having to make arrangements to extend another service through to Lincoln (which I think would require one extra unit overall and certainly a lot of work on traincrew route knowledge), and providing another 1tph to Retford with not even a hint of a thought that this could be extended in some hours to provide the Brigg service (rather than a pointless shuttle that few people travelling beyond Retford would use because of the inconvenience of changing trains). Has my suggestion that a basic Brigg service (through to Sheffield) might possibly be provided, without requiring additional units, bypassed you completely in your raging desire to keep pushing your assortment of completely unworkable and pointless proposals?

 

[David Barrett]

The trouble is that the shameless promotion of Nottingham and Robin Hood Airport at the expense of established and socially desireable train service patterns has entered into the argument, promoted by people who should know better. I'm sure that Lincoln would rightly object to two waits in the rain instead of one but politicians are involved, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed. There might be a separate case (as it appears there was in the early days of the Robin Hood line) for the extension of Notts - Worksop services to Retford (at the cost of one unit), but I'm not sure that anyone would really benefit from a further extension to Lincoln - certainly not enough to justify splitting the established Sheffield - Lincoln service. As for the airport, I share your concerns around the ill effects of forcing a 'Brigg' service to Doncaster just to serve the airport, and ignoring the demand for travel to Sheffield - which will, I'm sure, destroy the prospect of any long-term meaningful service on that line. The serious proposals for a half-hourly service between Sheffield and Retford provide the best prospect of justifying a Brigg line service, yet this possibility appears to have been totally ignored by this group of self-appointed "experts"!

 

[tbtc]

politicians are involved, what could possibly go wrong?

True!

Hence my fear of a politically dominated "Northern" franchise - everyone squabbling to represent "their" people (without any thought of the rest).

 

[David Barrett]

I most certianly agree that the key to any improvement East of Retford will be tied up in the future of the Sheffield to Retford Section (subject to political meddle and muddle of course). Robin Hood is a seperate issue and really has no part to play in the future of the Brigg Line, the Local Authorities and others who promote this are doing nobody any favours here although my thoughts on this have been stated earlier in this thread.

It would be interesting to know what potential users may think in, for example, Brigg and Gainsborough. I have a feeling here that 08.30ish arrivals in Sheffield/Worksop/Retford/Gainsborough/Grimsby with 17.00-18.00 departures would figure highly along with the possiblity of visits of three to four hour off peak duration for shopping etc. in these locations. Connections to destinations beyond the limits of the service at Retford, Worksop and Sheffield might also feature with the need for suitably timed services to permit these opportunities. Frankly, I doubt that many, would rate Robin Hood as being a priority.

If anybody wishes for Robin Hood to be better served then why not simply sponsor an improved Lincoln to Doncaster Service although I suspect that if a station was to be built thereabouts with a better service there would be more local use than airport journeys but once more I have already commented on this subject.

 

[PhillH]

Gainsborough Central
I would prefer not to see adverse comments about Gainsborough Central. It is a beautiful station and with the sun at the right angle the new palisade fencing positively gleams with pride. As a man with some responsibility for its well being ( in but a minor capacity ) my weekly visit is the highlight of my social activity.

More seriously, to try to answer to Mr. Barretts question it is my experience that westbound travelers from Brigg head for Sheffield initially as a changing point for destinations elsewhere. I must stress however that the message from my earlier post is really that the sample is too low to form any accurate conclusion. There is little of a train orientated travel culture in Brigg for a variety of reasons the main one being ignorance. I know some of you will be thinking " how rude" the people of Brigg can't be that bad. No, most people in Brigg are ignorant of the fact that there is a station or even a train service.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I think extending Nottingham-Worksop trains through to Lincoln at the expense of Sheffield is daft.

Surely a
Hourly Sheffield-Fast-Worksop-Lincoln
Hourly Sheffield-All Stations-Workop-Nottingham

is what the public would want. There are often a number of passengers getting off the Robin Hood Line with through tickets to Sheffield (and with a 50minute wait) at Worksop. (And yes I do continue to Retford & Gainsborough myself - but you cannot link everywhere on through trains - concentrate on major flows).

It doesn't though solve the Brigg line problem. Though I DO think there would be sufficient demand for a Gainsborough Central-Doncaster service if marketed right - there is no longer a bus service.