First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

This does pre-suppose that there is going to be a bus war in Manchester? Might just be an opportunistic purchase and that the actual routes, fares and frequencies remain the same?

Agree that the really interesting area is now South Devon and how the new MD of First deals with PCB and Stagecoach incursions. The First operations are characterised by a lot of ageing Darts (R/S reg), some very elderly Olympians (even K reg) and then a number of vehicles from around 2000-2002 comprising B6LEs and Tridents.

There is talk that Somerset is about to get some low floor deckers (must be cascaded) so wonder if there might be some of the Tridents heading there, and some newer kit to Plymouth. Can't imagine new vehicles going there though

Finglands would be an opportunistic purchase if it was making money, but they have taken on yet another loss maker in traditional Stagecoach Manchester territory which I can only see being used to fire one back across Stagecoach's bow....... First couldn't even turn around the small losses at Northampton, Redditch & Kiddiminster, so what makes them think they can turn Finglands around with Stagecoach hot on their heels following every move???

In Plymouth, for me First now needs to deploy some brand new double/single deckers with the new leather interior & free wifi on the X80, X81, Torpoint & Tavistock corridors & consider frequency enhancements/fare initiatives before the effect of competition takes hold

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Changes are on the way in Essex and around Ipswich it seems, so First are still responding in certain areas.

Are any new buses due for the following places?

* First Scotland East ( badly needs single deckers, but the best it can be done is T reg Deckers from Glasgow.)
* Leicester
* York

I did make this point earlier, Uk bus are only spending the money where it get the best returns, thus area like Scotland east etc are not getting new buses etc because it not cost effective, i cant see South Devon getting the investment because of this point. First will stick to better areas and transfere the fleet to other areas........... It just sounds like what it used to do....

First Ipswich have lost the Park & Ride contract to Ipswich Buses so they will have any 14 x 58 reg B7RLE surplus to requirement, the park & ride loss could have implications of the level of competition with Ipswich Buses?

FSE - Larbert has had R-reg/Wright & W-reg/ALX300 B10BLE's transferred in from Gala following the loss of work to Perryman's

First Leicester may be due some 07/57 plate B7RLE/Plaxton Centro from Worcester originally ex Veolia, not sure what for as some of the second-hand E200 & E300 from Ensign are thought to be releasing those at Worcester

Whilst First need to deploy new buses to get the best returns, the loss making/low margin subsidiaries are never going to be able to turnaround fortunes with old/un-reliable buses, so these areas also need new investment on core routes

 

[Surreyman]

I did make this point earlier, Uk bus are only spending the money where it get the best returns, thus area like Scotland east etc are not getting new buses etc because it not cost effective, i cant see South Devon getting the investment because of this point. First will stick to better areas and transfere the fleet to other areas........... It just sounds like what it used to do....

Putting new vehicles into profitable areas seems a sensible thing to do, then cascading mid life buses on to the less profitable areas.
If I was a board member of First or head of a large institutional investment company with a wedge of First shares I would be very happy to see them follow this policy.
Of course First might use a few new vehicles to try and fight Stagecoach & PCB, I suspect that if they do, they will be losing money hand over fist.
Hopefully Stagecoach & PCB have deeper pockets and are prepared for a long term bus - war (2 years+).
I still believe that First would like to exit Plymouth but no buyer can be found for a business that has no long term future.

 

[winston270twm]

I still believe that First would like to exit Plymouth but no buyer can be found for a business that has no long term future.

May be that's what Stagecoach & Go-Ahead are banking on and be weakening the business further First may eventually walk away?

 

[overthewater]

First Ipswich have lost the Park & Ride contract to Ipswich Buses so they will have any 14 x 58 reg B7RLE surplus to requirement, the park & ride loss could have implications of the level of competition with Ipswich Buses?

FSE - Larbert has had R-reg/Wright & W-reg/ALX300 B10BLE's transferred in from Gala following the loss of work to Perryman's

First Leicester may be due some 07/57 plate B7RLE/Plaxton Centro from Worcester originally ex Veolia, not sure what for as some of the second-hand E200 & E300 from Ensign are thought to be releasing those at Worcester

Whilst First need to deploy new buses to get the best returns, the loss making/low margin subsidiaries are never going to be able to turnaround fortunes with old/un-reliable buses, so these areas also need new investment on core routes

I cant see Ipswich keeping 14 B7RLE, I could see them getting moved to Norfolk or down to Essex. Do any of the other routes actully make enough money to keep the depot going?

Of course the W reg Alx300 come from Aberdeen the months before I believe First Scotland East now has the whole batch of said buses, but its only replacing much older stock while not solving the main issus

Whilst First need to deploy new buses to get the best returns, the loss making/low margin subsidiaries are never going to be able to turnaround fortunes with old/un-reliable buses, so these areas also need new investment on core routes

I tried to say something a but like that before, how money was being spent else where. You are right, It may sound like a good idea, but it will reach a breaking point, How could these company continue to operate? All passengers get to see are wide gaps in the fleet, I still dont see how it could be cost effective to replace the fleet every single, that what happening the now. Alx300 are not DDA..

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I tried to say something a but like that before, how money was being spent else where. You are right, It may sound like a good idea, but it will reach a breaking point, How could these company continue to operate? All passengers get to see are wide gaps in the fleet, I still dont see how it could be cost effective to replace the fleet every single, that what happening the now. Alx300 are not DDA..

Think what really needs to happen is for the cascading of relatively modern kit from the main powerhouses (e.g. Leeds, Manchester, Bristol) to the weaker areas, if only in the short term. For instance, when the new vehicles arrive in the Solent operations, displace the older e200s (4 x 58 plate and perhaps a nearly new 62 plate) to Weymouth for Littlemoor service and then retire 5 elderly Darts there.

Not perfect a way to update the fleet, but better than merely replacing some R regs with some S or T regs.

Not seen official confirmation that the e400s delivered to Devon last year are off to Bolton? Can anyone confirm the accuracy of reports?

 

[34D]

Alx300 are not DDA..

Right

And on what authority do you make this proclamation?

i guess the accessibility cert that my firm have for our alx 300 was wrong then? I'd best tell Mr VOSA to go retrain.

 

[overthewater]

Right

And on what authority do you make this proclamation?

i guess the accessibility cert that my firm have for our alx 300 was wrong then? I'd best tell Mr VOSA to go retrain.

A SMALL ERROR:

Batch in Question does have the ramps, Not all Alx300 have ramps and its those ones which are not DDA.

 

[winston270twm]

Not seen official confirmation that the e400s delivered to Devon last year are off to Bolton? Can anyone confirm the accuracy of reports?

At one point, I was also under the impression that the ex Olympic E400's at Plymouth were temporary pending delivery of a batch of new dedicated Park & Ride buses for FDC Plymouth, with those joining the other at First Manchester. But as only 42 new E400's are order for this year, I've not seen any mention of any joining FDC as replacements for those buses.

I think the bulk of the 42 E400's have been suggested as going to Kings Lynn for the X1, First Glasgow & some possibly to Bristol?

 

[swifty]

There was an Enviro 400 on suspended tow heading east on the M4 at Bristol last night. Possibly the one from Devon that suffered a knock a few weeks back?

 

[Deerfold]

A SMALL ERROR:

Batch in Question does have the ramps, Not all Alx300 have ramps and its those ones which are not DDA.

I'm guessing if that's the only problem it'd be fairly easy to retrofit ramps to any that hadn't go them.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm guessing if that's the only problem it'd be fairly easy to retrofit ramps to any that hadn't go them.

That's the problem in saying that vehicles of a certain age/type are not DDA compliant. There are some that are easier to bring up to standard. In some it's the ramps but can also be handrails, flooring, the "ironing board", etc etc. That means some can be brought up to scratch relatively simply, but some require extensive work that on a vehicle of 12/13 years old just isn't cost effective

 

[Rich McLean]

At one point, I was also under the impression that the ex Olympic E400's at Plymouth were temporary pending delivery of a batch of new dedicated Park & Ride buses for FDC Plymouth, with those joining the other at First Manchester. But as only 42 new E400's are order for this year, I've not seen any mention of any joining FDC as replacements for those buses.

I think the bulk of the 42 E400's have been suggested as going to Kings Lynn for the X1, First Glasgow & some possibly to Bristol?

The Plymouth P and R service contract comes up for tender soon. It wouldn't surprise me if first throw in the towel so they can use the e400s for elsewhere

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Plymouth P and R service contract comes up for tender soon. It wouldn't surprise me if first throw in the towel so they can use the e400s for elsewhere

Any evidence for that?

 

[Rich McLean]

Any evidence for that?

Nothing in writing. Was told of someone from the council, however, it could be a rumour

 

[winston270twm]

The Oft decision on the Rotala acquisitions of First Groups RH & KR operations has now been put back again to 23rd August

 

[Volvodart]

http://www.york.gov.uk/press/article/1387/first_awarded_p_and_r_contract_for_a_further_three_years

City of York Council is pleased to announce that First has been awarded York’s Park & Ride (P&R) contract for a further three years.

Working in partnership with the council, First York has successfully operated all five P&R sites for more than 15 years and will continue to do so for another three years.

In addition, one of the city’s principle bus companies has now also been signed-up to operate the new P&R site at Poppleton, which is set to open in 2014.

As part of the new agreement First will be operating a new electric bus service from the new 600-vehicle facility at Poppleton Bar, which is set to open in Spring 2014. The purchase of the buses has been part funded through the Government’s Green Bus fund, which awarded £594k to First in May.

Six electric buses are set to be deployed on the York Park & Ride network, though a bid submitted by First York. The new buses will provide cleaner and greener bus journeys for thousands of passengers across the city.

Cllr Dave Merrett, Cabinet Member for Transport, Planning and Sustainability, said: “Over 3.5 million journeys are made on York’s five Park & Rides every year which is testament to why York’s service is one of the most renowned in the UK. In partnership with First, we strive to deliver the best service for residents and visitors and we look forward to continuing our partnership with First over the next three years.”

Simon Pearson, Commercial Director for First in York, said: “First is delighted to have been given this three year extension to continue to run the successful York Park and Ride Service.

“This is an exciting time for bus travel in York. The new electric buses and a new P&R site at Poppleton will further enhance York’s image as one of the UK’s most innovative and forward thinking cities.

“In partnership with the City of York Council, we will continue develop new and effective ways of making bus travel better for our customers and communities in York and we have a number of other exciting initiatives ready to be launched over the next few weeks.”

Congestion levels along the routes into the city centre will be cut by increasing the parking capacity to 1,100 vehicles at Askham Bar. Junctions to the new sites will be provided off the A59 and A1036 and major improvements to the A59/A1237 roundabout will be delivered as part of the works, which will run through to May 2014.

For more information about buses in York please visit http://www.itravelyork.info/ or follow @itravelyork on Twitter

For more details about the new Park&Ride visit www.york.gov.uk/parkandride

 

[34D]

A SMALL ERROR:

Batch in Question does have the ramps, Not all Alx300 have ramps and its those ones which are not DDA.

So you buy a folding ramp for £100 and store it in the luggage pen.
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That's the problem in saying that vehicles of a certain age/type are not DDA compliant. There are some that are easier to bring up to standard. In some it's the ramps but can also be handrails, flooring, the "ironing board", etc etc. That means some can be brought up to scratch relatively simply, but some require extensive work that on a vehicle of 12/13 years old just isn't cost effective

A very sensible post, which the beaters ought to read carefully.

 

[Surreyman]

So you buy a folding ramp for £100 and store it in the luggage pen.
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A very sensible post, which the beaters ought to read carefully.

Would it be a reasonable guess to suggest that most of Firsts W & X reg Volvo/Scania Wright single decks will be upgraded and certified?

By the way whats a 'Beater' ??

 

[34D]

It was supposed to say bleat!

I suspect for W X reg scanioa L94 it will soimoply be a case of going to the examoination

 

[winston270twm]

So you buy a folding ramp for £100 and store it in the luggage pen.

I was under the impression that DDA required built-in fold out wheelchair ramps within the entrance doors? TWM now NXWM had specified folding wheelchair ramps from new on all low floor single deckers i.e. B6LE & B10L dating from 1996 & Mercedes 0405N dating from 1997 stored behind the drivers back mounted at the rear of the cab. All of those buses are thought to none DDA and a pilot project was carried out to refurbish & P-reg B10L with a built-in ramp but this remained a one off due to cost/expected life expectancy

 

[mbonwick]

AFAIK there's no requirement for ramps to be built in to meet DDA specs. All that's required is the ramp to have adequete securing to the step of the bus.

 

[34D]

AFAIK there's no requirement for ramps to be built in to meet DDA specs. All that's required is the ramp to have adequete securing to the step of the bus.

My understanding alsO

 

[sonic2009]

The Oft decision on the Rotala acquisitions of First Groups RH & KR operations has now been put back again to 23rd August

They should make there mind up!! Having been on Diamond in Bromsgrove & Redditch recently i can say they are pants at running on time, and maintaining the buses.
What's the reason for the investigation anyway?

 

[winston270twm]

My understanding alsO

Extract from DDA requirements:
Lifts and ramps
Wheelchair accessible vehicles are fitted with a lift, or a ramp (powered, manual or portable i.e. a detachable, usually folding ramp) stowed in a convenient place on the vehicle. If a portable ramp is used, a driver or conductor must ensure at the start of the service that it is being carried on the vehicle.

Looks as though you are both right, don't what all the fuss is about with non compliant early low floor single deckers unless they don't have designated wheelchair bays? The only main concern is for bus operators to remove step entrance buses from service by the set dates......

 

[Surreyman]

Extract from DDA requirements:
Lifts and ramps
Wheelchair accessible vehicles are fitted with a lift, or a ramp (powered, manual or portable i.e. a detachable, usually folding ramp) stowed in a convenient place on the vehicle. If a portable ramp is used, a driver or conductor must ensure at the start of the service that it is being carried on the vehicle.

Looks as though you are both right, don't what all the fuss is about with non compliant early low floor single deckers unless they don't have designated wheelchair bays? The only main concern is for bus operators to remove step entrance buses from service by the set dates......

I think there's a bit more to this 'DDA' thing than just ramps/wheelchair- spaces ???
Maybe you are just winding us up?

 

[34D]

I think there's a bit more to this 'DDA' thing than just ramps/wheelchair- spaces ???
Maybe you are just winding us up?

Yes, there are other requirements. But things like:

-fitting a side destination blind

-replacing an inoperative kneeling valve

-buying a clip on ramp

-painting some handles

-fitting an ironing board

Will cost sub £200.

 

[winston270twm]

I think there's a bit more to this 'DDA' thing than just ramps/wheelchair- spaces ???
Maybe you are just winding us up?

No, not winding you up.

A recessed built-in wheelchair & providing a designated wheelchair space i.e. altering the interior would have potentially have been the two most expensive requirements

 

[david16]

I was under the impression that DDA required built-in fold out wheelchair ramps within the entrance doors? TWM now NXWM had specified folding wheelchair ramps from new on all low floor single deckers i.e. B6LE & B10L dating from 1996 & Mercedes 0405N dating from 1997 stored behind the drivers back mounted at the rear of the cab. All of those buses are thought to none DDA and a pilot project was carried out to refurbish & P-reg B10L with a built-in ramp but this remained a one off due to cost/expected life expectancy

I noticed recently that some of the V, W, and X reg Scania L94's ones in the South East and Central Scotland area just had a flat ramp and no DDA required built-in fold out wheelchair ramps.

It's the likes of the V--- CNH's, V--- DND's, W--- SNG' s, X--- USH's. Did they have these folding wheelchair ramps when new?
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It was supposed to say bleat!

I suspect for W X reg scanioa L94 it will soimoply be a case of going to the examoination

First Edinburgh built over the front entry on some of their W and X reg L94's with a plain flat ramp. I recall them all having these built in fold out wheelchair ramps when they were first in service.

 

[overthewater]

Lets go back to 1997, where it all began.................................

More than any other operator it has played the quality card, and local companies are reporting that the public is responding well to the new corporate liveried-buses with encouraging passenger increases.

This is music to the ears of Moir Lockhead, who was preaching the need for quality operations in the days before Firstgroup, when he was Chairman of GRT bus group.

His Mission is to Attract Car users on to the buses, and he has enthusiastically championed up market buses and close relationships with local authorities. We decided in 1995 that the Car market must be our prime target, previously we were all chasing the bus market but Firstbus decided it needed to move away from this.

We wanted to set our product apart from that of our competitors with recognisable quality standards. No-one else has really done that yet. We wanted to offer the Quality elements that would be recongnised by car users, like Double-glazing better heating and ventilation and Better seats...........

The research showed us that what customers wanted was reliability x3, followed by Frequency x3, Next on the list were the vehicles and drivers, information - which is not so important for regular users and Price

We're also doing employee research, measuring employee satisfactions and trying to understand what motivates them to provide a good service and what prevents this. We try to find out what systems and structures we can help with.

 

[Volvodart]

First's London operations will come to an end earlier than anticipated with the early transfer of route 179 to Stagecoach now taking place on 28 September rather than 17 October. The September date is the date of transfer of the other remaining routes.