ATW Premier Service

[anthony263]

I do hope the Fishguard services continue however as you have all said the timetable lets it down. In particular having some trains terminate at Claberston road or having to travel back from Cardiff on the 17:39 Milford Haven service which is always extremely overcrowded.

Ideally there should be a train every 2-3 hours interworked with the Swansea - Pembroke Dock services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I fully agree that just one or two extra services (let alone the hourly service!) on the Cambrian would generate greater passenger numbers than Fishguard but as I undersstand it the projection was that the new service to Fishguard would provide c20,000 extra passengers per year which gave quite a positive CBR. It would appear that the new services are on target for that increase so why would/should the service be axed for not having achieved "big numbers?" As usual, perhaps I am being naive!!!

Yes, the tt is not perfect and I think misses on potential INCOMING (perhaps seasonal) traffic for days out in North Pembrokeshire whereas it is much better to the South pembs resorts.

Struggling to see how £1.4 million a year subsidy and 20,000 extra passengers is value for money at £70 per journey.

 

[anthony263]

It will be interesting to see how much cheaper the Wales and Borders franchise wil be if it is brought in house.

I am not sure whether or not it will be a good thing compared to having a private company run the franchise like it is now

 

[ValleyLines142]

or having to travel back from Cardiff on the 17:39 Milford Haven service which is always extremely overcrowded.

Actually the 1739 to Milford Haven isn't so bad now that it's a 3-car 175. When it was 2-car 175 it was absolute hell on earth and I'd purposely wait for the 1748 FGW Swansea instead!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It will be interesting to see how much cheaper the Wales and Borders franchise wil be if it is brought in house.

I am not sure whether or not it will be a good thing compared to having a private company run the franchise like it is now

What do you mean by cheaper?
Higher revenue/fares? Less subsidy? Fewer staff? Less stock?
Anyway it's academic. The franchise is being re-let in 2018.
What does the Welsh Government know about running trains?
Slightly provocative, but I don't see it happening.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It will be interesting to see how much cheaper the Wales and Borders franchise wil be if it is brought in house.

I am not sure whether or not it will be a good thing compared to having a private company run the franchise like it is now

The not for profit suggestion doesn't address much you,ll still have rolling stock leasing, they,ll still be £91 million staff costs and no doubt the unions will be exploring how many more members they can get on the books with pay increases all round. Does diddly squat about network rail costs either. AND the big flaw with this is whether a not for profit company will be focused on creating surpluses like a profit one. The attitude to passenger improvements may change and quotes for new services maybe on a can do basis rather how much can we get away with but as for £ millions to invest forget it.

 

[swcovas]

Struggling to see how £1.4 million a year subsidy and 20,000 extra passengers is value for money at £70 per journey.

Putting that way it does sound ridiculous BUT the 20,000 was the figure deemed to be success. Do you believe the whole idea should therefore have been strangled at birth? By the same token how much do you calculate the subsidy per journey is on Gerald?

The figure of 20,000 is banded about but who has actual experience of travelling on the extra Fishguard trains. My only experience has been catching two of the boat trains at Goodwick once last summer and again this summer. On both occasions 15 paasengers boarded which seemed quite good to me but, of course, I don't know if these same passengers would still have used this service by boarding at Harbour. Anyone on the Forum used the moring trains out or the evening services in? I would be interested to know how many passengers.

 

[merlodlliw]

Putting that way it does sound ridiculous BUT the 20,000 was the figure deemed to be success. Do you believe the whole idea should therefore have been strangled at birth? By the same token how much do you calculate the subsidy per journey is on Gerald?

Do you mean passenger journeys on Gerald,the then minister IWJ allocated £3.5M to hire in the stock to May 2015 as capital spend plus £1,4M each year is required from revenue fund to staff & run Gerald.
So WG are actually funding Gerald at well over £2.5M a year,which currently carries fresh air, Wagair is paid a similar amount each year when you add in Valley airport facilities.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm not against Fishguard having more trains but if you want to demonstrate good value for investment in rail services outside the Cardiff City region then Gerald and the Fishguards would not be at the top of the list.

And I agree that the hourly Cambrian Main Line service we were promised back in 2011 would be hugely benifitial (provided the Cambrian Coast portions are retained every two hours), probablly more so than the Fishguard services. That doesn't make the Fishguard services a failure, just maybe puts them lower down the priority list.

The figure of 20,000 is banded about but who has actual experience of travelling on the extra Fishguard trains. My only experience has been catching two of the boat trains at Goodwick once last summer and again this summer. On both occasions 15 paasengers boarded which seemed quite good to me but, of course, I don't know if these same passengers would still have used this service by boarding at Harbour. Anyone on the Forum used the moring trains out or the evening services in? I would be interested to know how many passengers.

There are a number of comments relating to passenger numbers on the FishguardTrains.info website. If I recall correctly, the reports were that the evening through train from Cardiff (now Gloucester) was often quite busy and to a lessor extent the 09:56 departure in the morning also. Never used (or observed) that evening through train myself though. One of my 'Trains For Fishguard' videos (this one, I think) shows a large number of passengers alighting from the 09:56 at Carmarthen.

I've used the last evening service into Fishguard a handful of times, and found it rather underused the most recent was an improvment but still not great. I wonder if it is the sardine conditions out of Cardiff or the change at Clarbeston Road that put pepole off that service, or if the arrival time is considered too late?

The car park at Fishguard & Goodwick has always seemed quite busy when I've used it the boat train to/from Goodwick station.
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Do you mean passenger journeys on Gerald,the then minister IWJ allocated £3.5M to hire in the stock to May 2015 as capital spend plus £1,4M each year is required from revenue fund to staff & run Gerald.
So WG are actually funding Gerald at well over £2.5M a year,which currently carries fresh air, Wagair is paid a similar amount each year when you add in Valley airport facilities.

There seemed to be a good number on the platform at Wrexham waiting for the southbound service on the one occasion I used it. First class was quite empty though.

Shame you can't do a cooked breakfast in a 175 otherwise that might be a more appropriate train for the loadings on Gerald currently.

If WAG cut the annual funding for Gerald but continued to pay to hire the stock would ATW put the stock on Manchester workings?

 

[jones_bangor]

Do you mean passenger journeys on Gerald,the then minister IWJ allocated £3.5M to hire in the stock to May 2015 as capital spend plus £1,4M each year is required from revenue fund to staff & run Gerald.
So WG are actually funding Gerald at well over £2.5M a year,which currently carries fresh air, Wagair is paid a similar amount each year when you add in Valley airport facilities.

If WAG is carrying fresh air, then it's because of IWJ successors' bone-headed decision to move the Northbound departure from "peak time" 1615 to "post peak" 1821!!

 

[merlodlliw]

If WAG is carrying fresh air, then it's because of IWJ successors' bone-headed decision to move the Northbound departure from "peak time" 1615 to "post peak" 1821!!

The WAG carried few if any in first even at 1615, the 1821 was the death blow perhaps 1716 from December will improve things,but I don't think it will improve first class passengers numbers,standard pax will improve as the current 1721 is the busiest service.
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There seemed to be a good number on the platform at Wrexham waiting for the southbound service on the one occasion I used it. First class was quite empty though.

Shame you can't do a cooked breakfast in a 175 otherwise that might be a more appropriate train for the loadings on Gerald currently.

If WAG cut the annual funding for Gerald but continued to pay to hire the stock would ATW put the stock on Manchester workings?

Many catch the WAG from Wrexham and change at Salop,due to the WAG taking a Birmingham path.
If WG cut the annual funding before May 2015 the date the stock is hired to,you will find the stock going over to Chilten,

 

[Llanigraham]

Many catch the WAG from Wrexham and change at Salop,due to the WAG taking a Birmingham path.

The Gerallt does not take "a Birmingham path" south of Salop!

 

[daikilo]

If WAG is carrying fresh air, then it's because of IWJ successors' bone-headed decision to move the Northbound departure from "peak time" 1615 to "post peak" 1821!!

And here's me naively thinking that the WAG exists with First Class and a travelling chef so that one or more (or less) member/s of the WNA can travel on it with the free food he/she merits. In that calculation I assumed the cost exceeded the saving by any other means such as a flight. Then I realised that both still exist (maybe said member of the WNA can't fly but another can).

I have read the menus for many weeks in June/July and I pity the chef who has to cope with the logistics of 3 starters, 3 main courses and 3 deserts, any combination of which would probably fetch at least 15-20 pounds in a ground-based restaurant selling cart-loads. If I were in Cardiff for an evening I might just eat there, but I wouldn't want the train back.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Given that the average through north to south trains carry 25 passengers each and Gerald runs weekdays only, it looks likely its carrying fewer than the Exras to Fishguard at poorer value for money.

I've not seen the consultants report on Fishguard but I can't believe an extra 20000 passengers at £1.4 million a year subsidy had a positive BCR. However it's all done and my big worry is someone's going to look at this and say rails not worth investing in outside the city region. We all know these trains were put on for other reasons than purely railway/ prioritised demand reasons. I can see Gerald going but as there's other direct trains its loss will not be catastrophic, the Fishguards will be scaled back from 5 extras to maybe 2/3 as closing it down will be embarassing.

 

[merlodlliw]

The Gerallt does not take "a Birmingham path" south of Salop!

To get Gerald a path into Wrexham, the HHD Birmingham service was diverted via Crewe,thats what I meant by a Birmingham path.

 

[nw1]

What do you mean by cheaper?
What does the Welsh Government know about running trains?
Slightly provocative, but I don't see it happening.

Erm... what do Sea Containers, Generale des Eaux (Connex) or Virgin know about running trains? Not a lot presumably, but they brought in people who did (notwithstanding the mixed record of some of those companies) ... and the same could be done by the Welsh Government.

 

[merlodlliw]

Erm... what do Sea Containers, Generale des Eaux (Connex) or Virgin know about running trains? Not a lot presumably, but they brought in people who did (notwithstanding the mixed record of some of those companies) ... and the same could be done by the Welsh Government.

The firms you mention are professional, WG is political and would interfere,look what happened to the timing of Gerald & stealing the ring fenced £32M for the redouble at Wrexham, Govts usually bring in cronies not the best.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Erm... what do Sea Containers, Generale des Eaux (Connex) or Virgin know about running trains? Not a lot presumably, but they brought in people who did (notwithstanding the mixed record of some of those companies) ... and the same could be done by the Welsh Government.

Why? It's not their job. Rail Transport is not devolved and by law is in private hands.
They do manage the ATW franchise on behalf of DfT, and will have a say on any new franchises.
But they don't own a transport company.
Nor do they control the Network Rail budget or have a say in ORR regulation, or control the FGW, VT or XC operations in Wales.
We don't live in the People's Republic of Wales - yet.

 

[PHILIPE]

I do hope the Fishguard services continue however as you have all said the timetable lets it down. In particular having some trains terminate at Claberston road or having to travel back from Cardiff on the 17:39 Milford Haven service which is always extremely overcrowded.

Ideally there should be a train every 2-3 hours interworked with the Swansea - Pembroke Dock services.

If the additional Fishguard Hbr services were to go, money would have been wasted re-building Fishguard and Goodwick station.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If the additional Fishguard Hbr services were to go, money would have been wasted re-building Fishguard and Goodwick station.

You mean like upgrading the bay platforms at Wrexham Gen?

 

[jones_bangor]

The firms you mention are professional, WG is political and would interfere,look what happened to the timing of Gerald & stealing the ring fenced £32M for the redouble at Wrexham, Govts usually bring in cronies not the best.

I'm not sure if it's stealing, it was just WG saw, for example, other projects like Gowerton as a higher priority for redoubling. This was the Labour MInisters' (Local to NE Wales at the time) decision, (if I recall correctly)..... maybe actions speak louder than soundbites in the Wrexham Evening Leader and Daily Post. "We are also investing in redoubling the majority of the single track between Wrexham and Saltney Junction, as well as associated track and signalling work." I suppose the latter part will still happen....

As regards Gowerton, Transport Minister Carl Sargeant: "These improvements are excellent news for the population of West Wales as they will provide the capacity for a more frequent and reliable service."

Ironicallly, I agree Gowerton was the top priority, as I've always doubted the case for the Saltney - Wrexham redoubling.

 

[merlodlliw]

Ironicallly, I agree Gowerton was the top priority, as I've always doubted the case for the Saltney - Wrexham redoubling.

[/QUOTE]

You always do seem to knock Wrexham, I would be interested to learn more about your top priority of redoubling Gowerton village population 9K giving the village 95 extra trains a week, whereas Wrexham town population alone over 45K is less important in having any extra services,current one an hour to Chester & Shrewsbury.

The £52m spent on purchasing the Cardiff airport – with an additional £500,000 on a new Airport Express coach service – is in marked contrast to the cutbacks facing public transport in the north, I suspect this is where the ring fenced £32M for the Wrexham redouble was spent, The £500K Airport Express service from Cardiff to Rhoose is not a full year, so some service in the revenue account for 2014/15, will suffer, and it wont be Wagair.

 

[Llanigraham]

If you are so concerned about where the £32M has been spent, why not send a Freedom of Information request to the Assembly asking the question? At least then you will get a true answer.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If you are so concerned about where the £32M has been spent, why not send a Freedom of Information request to the Assembly asking the question? At least then you will get a true answer.

Good idea.

However, if money ring-fenced for some double track between Wrexham and Chester has been used elsewhere it is bad form, whatever it has been used for. If it has been used for the airport, that's even worse than bad form.

If WG cut the annual funding before May 2015 the date the stock is hired to,you will find the stock going over to Chiltern,

If WAG is paying ATW (as opposed to Arriva UK Trains) for hire of stock surely they wouldn't be allowed to move the stock to Chiltern, or at least WAG would have something to say about it.

If WAG continue to pay ATW for hire of the stock (even beyond May 2015) but not fund a specific service to run using it, are ATW likely to use the stock regularly or just on the summer Saturday Holyhead extras?

 

[merlodlliw]

If you are so concerned about where the £32M has been spent, why not send a Freedom of Information request to the Assembly asking the question? At least then you will get a true answer.

The Plaid North Wales AM Llyr Huws Gruffydd has put in FOI request on our behalf,we await the result,an AM has less chance of being bluffed and can challenge the reply in the Senned, all parties have put in requests for info,including North Wales Labour AMs who feel they have been side lined by the Minister
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Good idea.

However, if money ring-fenced for some double track between Wrexham and Chester has been used elsewhere it is bad form, whatever it has been used for. If it has been used for the airport, that's even worse than bad form.

If WAG is paying ATW (as opposed to Arriva UK Trains) for hire of stock surely they wouldn't be allowed to move the stock to Chiltern, or at least WAG would have something to say about it.

If WAG continue to pay ATW for hire of the stock (even beyond May 2015) but not fund a specific service to run using it, are ATW likely to use the stock regularly or just on the summer Saturday Holyhead extras?

ATW Directors told us in Wrexham earlier this year they would not run a loco hauled service without funding(capital & Revenue) It is my opinion Gerald may run until May 2015, if the revenue of £1.5M is cut after May 2014,the stock will lie idle,or a deal will be done between WG & Chiltern to claw back the last year of capital spent by WG for hiring the O/A stock

 

[Squaddie]

I would be interested to learn more about your top priority of redoubling Gowerton village population 9K giving the village 95 extra trains a week, whereas Wrexham town population alone over 45K is less important in having any extra services, current one an hour to Chester & Shrewsbury.

The justification for re-doubling the 6 miles of track between Cocket and Duffryn was not (as I'm sure you're aware) simply to give Gowerton a better train service but to improve the service between Swansea and the whole of south-west Wales.

Having travelled through Gowerton a few weeks ago, I can report that the station refurbishment is very impressive and should be the blueprint for future upgrades of minor stations across Wales. If only the trains themselves were as impressive...

 

[Rhydgaled]

The justification for re-doubling the 6 miles of track between Cocket and Duffryn was not (as I'm sure you're aware) simply to give Gowerton a better train service but to improve the service between Swansea and the whole of south-west Wales.

Having travelled through Gowerton a few weeks ago, I can report that the station refurbishment is very impressive and should be the blueprint for future upgrades of minor stations across Wales. If only the trains themselves were as impressive...

Aren't the key benifits of the Gowerton redouble service relibability improvements and extra trains stopping at Gowerton?

Llanelli and Carmarthen already have a fairly good service (1.5tph) to Swansea, it is to Cardiff that the current service is inadequate and that is because of journey time not because of frequency (hourly service is probably about right). My grandfather is staying with us at the moment and wanted a trip to Cardiff to view art in the museum. We didn't make the trip due to the distance and journey time involved.

If you want to reduce the journey time, running via Gowerton and Swansea is not the way to do it.

I suppose HOWL could use some more trains, which the Gowerton redouble would help with.

 

[Squaddie]

Aren't the key benifits of the Gowerton redouble service relibability improvements...?

You seem to be assuming that when I wrote "service improvements" I meant an increase in frequency and/or journey times, but that's not the case. I think reliability improvements are just as important as, if not more important than, other types of service improvement.

My grandfather is staying with us at the moment and wanted a trip to Cardiff to view art in the museum. We didn't make the trip due to the distance and journey time involved.

I don't think there's much that can be done about the distance between Carmarthen and Cardiff.

 

[airwolf21]

You always do seem to knock Wrexham, I would be interested to learn more about your top priority of redoubling Gowerton village population 9K giving the village 95 extra trains a week, whereas Wrexham town population alone over 45K is less important in having any extra services,current one an hour to Chester & Shrewsbury.

The £52m spent on purchasing the Cardiff airport – with an additional £500,000 on a new Airport Express coach service – is in marked contrast to the cutbacks facing public transport in the north, I suspect this is where the ring fenced £32M for the Wrexham redouble was spent, The £500K Airport Express service from Cardiff to Rhoose is not a full year, so some service in the revenue account for 2014/15, will suffer, and it wont be Wagair.[/QUOTE]


Whenever I work a train via Gowerton (request stop) there's always people either waiting there or wanting to get off, especially hikers heading down the Gower. It's true that they have extra services every day but not all of them will end up stopping there
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The justification for re-doubling the 6 miles of track between Cocket and Duffryn was not (as I'm sure you're aware) simply to give Gowerton a better train service but to improve the service between Swansea and the whole of south-west Wales.

Having travelled through Gowerton a few weeks ago, I can report that the station refurbishment is very impressive and should be the blueprint for future upgrades of minor stations across Wales. If only the trains themselves were as impressive...

Well said. Cockett tunnel used to flood the second we had a shower plus waiting at the beginning of the single line section for a late running train used to happen regulary

 

[merlodlliw]

The justification for re-doubling the 6 miles of track between Cocket and Duffryn was not (as I'm sure you're aware) simply to give Gowerton a better train service but to improve the service between Swansea and the whole of south-west Wales.

Having travelled through Gowerton a few weeks ago, I can report that the station refurbishment is very impressive and should be the blueprint for future upgrades of minor stations across Wales. If only the trains themselves were as impressive...

The justification for redoubling the the line Wrexham to Saltney was to improve the service between Shrewsbury/Chester and North Wales, the single track is ATW & NRs biggest pinch point in North Wales,at present it can only cope with two passenger trains and a freight an hour.A train failing on the single track has a catastrophic effect has was proven last year.
Running at saturation point only makes matters worse when a train is running a few minutes late. The extra work on the line between Wrexham & Shrewsbury will only add a couple of minutes, not enough to allow one extra service on the line.
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Well said. Cockett tunnel used to flood the second we had a shower plus waiting at the beginning of the single line section for a late running train used to happen regulary

[/QUOTE]

Same happens at Saltney & Wrexham, services waiting for late running trains on the single track