Is the other set undergoing scheduled maintenance? At least, I assume there's another set. Judging by the rugby specials they had 6 mark2s painted for old-Gerald, so one rake of 3 (plus the mrk3 buffet) in service and the other spare/in-for-maintainance. If Gerald has been a 175 several days running, I guess this means both mrk3 sets are out of action or they simply don't have enough mrk3s to form two full sets.
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ATW Premier Service
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PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Following unavailability for most of last week, 67001 and DVT 82307 ran as ECS from Canton to Holyheas Sunday evening to enable normal service to be resumed Monday morning.
SprinterMan
Established Member
Got the morning Premier express on Tuesday 23rd July, first time I'd been on it since it changed to go via Wrexham instead of Crewe, and it was a 175 apparently due to an issue with points at Holyhead and the normal stock was trapped. The 175 had been spare at Llandudno. Refreshment trolley provided between Chester and Shrewsbury only, but at least I managed to get something for breakfast although I had to pay for it despite holding a 1st class ticket. Looking forward to getting a refund back from ATW for the lack of the advertised 1st class accommodation!
voyagerdude220
Established Member
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I got the 18:21 from Cardiff, as far as Chester yesterday. I had Chicken satay skewers to start, Duck breast for main course and Creme Brulee for dessert. All three courses were of an extremely high quality. Of a far superior quality to most restaurants I've been to. It was only around £20 more for my Advance First ticket, which is incredibly good value for money. I was extremely impressed by the portion sizes. I could not fault the service in any way. I hadn't been on the Premier for a long time, with it being my first time on the retimed 18:21. I was the only passenger dining, which concerns me for the viability of the service. There were four other people from Cardiff to Abergavenny, with another person from Newport to Hereford. From a very selfish point of view, it was very peaceful.
I must do this train again soon.
I must do this train again soon.
merlodlliw
Established Member
The dining car attracts little trade and like all WG funded initiatives the Premier Service in its current form is under review, in my opinion a buffet car would suffice. But its a preferable service to Wagair.
I've been trying to book a seat on the northbound WAG, and have finally spotted what is going wrong. It seems to have been put in the system as a Sleeper service for this week and next. Can anyone shed any light on this, or is it just an error?
merlodlliw
Established Member
No idea what's wrong, perhaps its to do with the cock up on the Saturday run, where its not advertised. Anyhow don't worry, with the present trend on the little used return "down" from Cardiff to Holyhead there will be plenty of room.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
This has been debated before on forum about north to south trains but i found some stats on the Statistics Wales website about "passenger journeys by unitary authority of origin and destination 2010 - 2011"
The footfall between south and west Wales UA's and the six north Wales ones was 142 510. This includes Gwynedd so may have some cambrian coast traffic in it. Works out as just under 200 passengers each way per day on average. 30 percent of this was from Wrexham UA.
The footfall between south and west Wales UA's and the six north Wales ones was 142 510. This includes Gwynedd so may have some cambrian coast traffic in it. Works out as just under 200 passengers each way per day on average. 30 percent of this was from Wrexham UA.
Are there comparable statistics for north wales to Manchester/Crewe demand?
Gareth Marston
Established Member
No as statistic Wales in its wisdom only lists intra Wales journeys, however if you have acopy of the 2007 Wales rail plAnning assessment it breaks down cross border traffic by region in England or you can filter the ORR station estimates for 09/10 and subtract the intra Wales stuff to give you cross border traffic.
I'll post later however Wales roughly two thirds internal but valleys UA,s are. 95percent internal. Wrexhams s Wales traffic is c 5 percent. 1 percent of cambrian. gwynedd is c 1 million internal and 600k cross border but you have cambrian coast, Bangor and Blaneau Ffestioniog in mix.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As suspected the outside Wales % for N Wales are a lot higher. 5 677 000 footfall in total of which 3 084 000 is internal (54%) and 46% cross border. The 2 593 000 cross border dwarfs the 142 510 to S Wales. 18 times the size.
Ynys Mon 61%
Gwynedd 31% - though nearly half of all journeys are intra Cambrian Coast
Conwy 58%
Denbigh 48%
Flintshire 58%
Wrexham 60%
if you take the Cambrian Coast out 4 782 000 journeys total and 2 334 000 internal or 49% so cross border is more than half.
So, apart perhaps from Denbighshire, passenger demand to/from north Wales coast line stations is much higher for journeys to/from Chester, Crewe, Birmingham and Manchester versus Abergavenny, Newport Cardiff and the rest of south Wales?
I suppose 'cross-border' includes travel between Wales and Chester/Shrewsbury, so the above doesn't really cut it as evidence for claims that north Wales coast services running through to Crewe instead of Cardiff and Birmingham (via Shrewsbury) would match demand better.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Managed to find copy of the Wales rail planning assessment from Jul 07. It uses the 04/05 year figures the last full year before the massive incre are in north to south trains. The footfall was 2 582 000 then so bear in mind theres been c55 percent increase in usage to the figures I previously quoted.
N Wales traffic was 54 percent of total, next biggest market was NW England at 30.5, then London and SE at 10, W Midlands at 4.5 and S Wales at 1.5.
S Wales journeys were c39k compared to 142k now, so big increase percentage wise and increase of market share to about 3 percent. So it's still a small market and overall the cross border traflics market share in N Wales has increased at same time. Travel to NW England was c790 000 in 04/05 though I have no figure for now its probably not far off 1200 000 now given growth and increase in cross border share of market. Given that Chesters footfall is c 2 500 000 and north Wales trains only account for 3 in 10 of trains there whilst I accept that it's a big market from N Wales the bulk of passengers would appear to be going elsewhere in NorthWest and still outstrip the South Wales market by many times.
N Wales traffic was 54 percent of total, next biggest market was NW England at 30.5, then London and SE at 10, W Midlands at 4.5 and S Wales at 1.5.
S Wales journeys were c39k compared to 142k now, so big increase percentage wise and increase of market share to about 3 percent. So it's still a small market and overall the cross border traflics market share in N Wales has increased at same time. Travel to NW England was c790 000 in 04/05 though I have no figure for now its probably not far off 1200 000 now given growth and increase in cross border share of market. Given that Chesters footfall is c 2 500 000 and north Wales trains only account for 3 in 10 of trains there whilst I accept that it's a big market from N Wales the bulk of passengers would appear to be going elsewhere in NorthWest and still outstrip the South Wales market by many times.
merlodlliw
Established Member
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swcovas
Member
Interesting figures and just qualifies what I have always beleived. Whatever philosophical ideas the Welsh Govt has of "unifying" Wales in terms of transport, for historical/social/geographical reasons NW England is always going to be the natural "pull" for North Walians. Perhaps to the same extent the Midlands is for Mid Walians. I guess no one in, say Llandudno, wakes up in the morning and thinks lets go and have a day's shopping in Cardiff......it would be Chester/Manchester whatever. Similarly in Pembrokeshire the natural flow is West-East. I am sure that EVEN IF (never going to happen) there was a brand new North Wales- Cardiff rail link diagonally accross the country the natural flows would still be West-East.
anthony263
Established Member
Rumours doing the rounds is that the WG are looking at pulling the plug on WAGair and Gerald at the next budget renewal.
In the case of the former if it can be done commercially then let them continue however the money spent subsiding it must be quite a bit which would be better off being spent elsewhere
In the case of the former if it can be done commercially then let them continue however the money spent subsiding it must be quite a bit which would be better off being spent elsewhere
Gareth Marston
Established Member
As a rural mid walian I can vouch that a lot of people travel quite long distances on a regular basis Chester and Liverpool are quite popular at moment as well as west to east.
merlodlliw
Established Member
No Airline can run from Anglesey to Cardiff commercially without funding,but has WG have spent £50M of taxpayers money buying Cardiff Airport , I don't see Wagair having its contract bought out, that would cost WG over £4.5M from now to contract ending in 2015.
Gerald is contracted year by year, Its current yearly subsidy of £1.5 to ATW to run it ends in May 2014,if the Wrexham redouble has hit the buffers, so has Gerald
WG have hired stock for Gerald to May 2015, but will the Minister find the £ 1.5 to give to ATW to it, I dont think so
Bob
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I reckon a Cardiff - Merthyr - Brecon - Builth - Newtown - Bangor line could capture quite a lot of intermediate journeys (eg. Bangor - Porthmadog, Machynlleth - Brecon and Builth - Cardiff) but I wouldn't expect much end-to-end traffic.
Well, if Gerald stops then the air link better had bite the dust also. Otherwise I shall be even more furious than I already am over WAG transport policy (subsidising aviation, tut, tut, tut).
WAG buying the contract out would be too much to hope for, but I hope they will withdraw all further funding for WAGair following the end of the current contract.
As for Gerald, I hope ATW make use of the stock on Manchester services (whether to north or south Wales it doesn't matter so long as it ups a 2-car 175 diagram to a 3-car one and a 3-car 175 to 4-car LHCS) if Gerald is canceled.
merlodlliw
Established Member
[/
Rhydgaled,it would make sense to carry on with the loco hauled, but who will pay for the rental of the two sets of mark 3s/DVT/loco, ATW have said they wont,plus if Geralds subsidy is pulled next year by WG,no one else is around to find the money,
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jones_bangor
Member
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Gerald is still running as far as I can see, so I don't understand why you say it's hit the buffers.....
In the big scheme of transport budgets, £1.5 million is peanuts.
c £36m for Wrexham redouble - for example - would keep Gerald going for quite a few years.....
Arglwydd Golau
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c £36m for Wrexham redouble - for example - would keep Gerald going for quite a few years.....[/QUOTE]
slightly provocative statement!
slightly provocative statement!
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
They are not the same animal.
Infrastructure investment is capital, operational subsidy is revenue.
Subsidy is every year, capital is one off.
But you certainly can compare the subsidies for Gerald and the air service.
If Gerald stops (because WG can't afford it) I think the stock will find its way to Chiltern...
The politicians are an unpredictable lot. Anything could happen.
A pity the ATW franchise doesn't expire earlier than 2018 - it ties hands.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Like the extras to Fishguard introduced on a trial basis in Sep 11 will they survive beyond Sep 14?
merlodlliw
Established Member
We all are awaiting the answer for Capital going missing for the Wrexham redouble, several AMs have put in a FOI to see where the money as GONE.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
slightly provocative statement![/QUOTE]
As Gerald carries Fresh Air at the moment, the redouble would allow extra trains to carry real fare paying pax between Wrexham and Chester,I now await comment that Wrexham is not the largest populated town or City in North Wales.
with a pathetic current one hour rail service up & down on the main line between Chester & Salop--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Current pax numbers are not encouraging
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
A lot of resource has gone into stimulating "thin markets" though North to South has grown by 365% in recent years its still a small flow (142K). There's more footfall for school children on the Cambrian Coast (220K).
Fishguard is a town of just over 3000 with maybe three times that much in its wider catchment it was never going to deliver hundreds of thosounds of extra passengers. My worry is that its so called failure will be used as an excuse not to invest elsewhere. The big grower that's still handicapped by its recession timetable from the early 90's is the Cambrian Mainline - when will success be rewarded?
Fishguard is a town of just over 3000 with maybe three times that much in its wider catchment it was never going to deliver hundreds of thosounds of extra passengers. My worry is that its so called failure will be used as an excuse not to invest elsewhere. The big grower that's still handicapped by its recession timetable from the early 90's is the Cambrian Mainline - when will success be rewarded?
Fishguard services a failure? As seen here, the increase in passenger numbers over the first year was similar to the consultant's estimates. I think 45,334 passengers at Fishguard compares quite well with Pembroke Dock (Passengers: 48,644, Pop.: 9,753) and Pembroke (Passengers: 31,622, Pop.: 7,552) which have a more frequent (though slower) rail service).
I'd be quite supprised if the estimates from either consultant were based on a timetable which still featured two huge gaps (09:56 to 13:30 (3.5hrs) and 10:57 to 16:xx (5hrs)).
I'd be quite supprised if the estimates from either consultant were based on a timetable which still featured two huge gaps (09:56 to 13:30 (3.5hrs) and 10:57 to 16:xx (5hrs)).
merlodlliw
Established Member
The current problem is its a six day a week service,plus we now have a Minister looking to cut subsidies both Capital & Revenue,on the other hand the village of Gowerton pop 9K enjoys 95 extra services a week since May, Gowerton is within the current Rail Ministers constituency,so Im allright Jack.
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Gareth Marston
Established Member
Again it's the overall numbers are relatively small, the consultants report and increase in usage figures are all very well and I agree the tt could be better and it went off half cocked with the Goodwick station etc.......BUT and it's a big BUT the lack of big numbers will be ammunition to justify either withdrawl or not spending elsewhere. There's just on 300 extra train miles a day west of Carmarthen if we had got that on the Cambrian mainline we'd have way more than 20,0000 extra passengers. 300 miles is either an extra two trains the whole way or a unit to make hourly service between Newtown and Shrewsbury that starts/finishes at Machynlleth. An 0830 ish arrival into Shrewsbury will be well loaded ( 100 plus) from day one and generate more traffic than the 6 passengers per train to Fishguard.
I'm not against Fishguard having more trains but if you want to demonstrate good value for investment in rail services outside the Cardiff City region then Gerald and the Fishguards would not be at the top of the list.
swcovas
Member
I fully agree that just one or two extra services (let alone the hourly service!) on the Cambrian would generate greater passenger numbers than Fishguard but as I undersstand it the projection was that the new service to Fishguard would provide c20,000 extra passengers per year which gave quite a positive CBR. It would appear that the new services are on target for that increase so why would/should the service be axed for not having achieved "big numbers?" As usual, perhaps I am being naive!!!
Yes, the tt is not perfect and I think misses on potential INCOMING (perhaps seasonal) traffic for days out in North Pembrokeshire whereas it is much better to the South pembs resorts.
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