FGW kicked vulnerable passenger off train because card machine wasn't working

[sarahj]

TBh, most of the cards that I get that decline, the ticket is in the 1.80/2.50/4.10 mark. Ie short hops between stations. It does amaze me when they say, dont have the cash. But I guess its the new generation, use the cards for everything.


Of course sometimes they have the cash, but thats a different thread.

 

[michael769]

You are if you pay by card. The bank will levy a small fee on every card transaction. (That's why a lot of places don't like you paying less than £5 by card, because at such small prices the fee takes a big hit on the profit margin.)

You are splitting hairs there. At the end of the day the banks did not make the ToCs choose to select card readers that are unable process a type of card that was first introduced in 1998. Nor do the banks advertise to ToC customers that they accept these cards only to refuse to accept them.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If I was travelling from an unmanned station without already being in possession of a valid ticket I would ensure that I had adequate means of payment on my person. We all know that cards can sometimes play up, be declined or whatever (a few years ago a mainframe crashed somewhere and my card stopped working for a day). So I would ensure that I had enough cash to cover the purchase, not only that but a sensible denomination too.

TBh, most of the cards that I get that decline, the ticket is in the 1.80/2.50/4.10 mark. Ie short hops between stations. It does amaze me when they say, dont have the cash. But I guess its the new generation, use the cards for everything.

Of course sometimes they have the cash, but thats a different thread.

In regards to the above two posts, you really would be surprised. Until a couple of years ago the villiage in which my parents live (and I grew up in) did not have a cash machine.
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This is a particularly silly example of the forum getting itself wound-up in the most esoteric and theoretical stuff it can contrive.



Take a guess at the number of incidents that would pan out differently than they do now, were the railways to accurately advertise the ins and outs of online only cards and the like.

Remember you need to consider the following:

(the number of people affected by these issues now)
x
(the fraction of those people who would read the 14 pages of prose needed to describe things accurately)
x
(the fraction of those people who would understand what they've read and act accordingly)

If you get an answer above 0, let us know.

The point is that the railways are still advertising something that simply is not true. That is what irks me.

But its not the railways fault that there are different cards that say Visa, its the banks fault. Maybe the banks who issue these cards should actually let the customer know that they may not be able to use it for certain transactions - oh , they do? But its hidden in the small print when they get the card isnt it and no customer is going to read all they, they're just excited to get a shiny new card in the post so they can start using it.

Maybe NRE should have a note mentioning the use of certain cards cant be used, but then how many passengers actually read them anyway again. They seem to be ignorant of them when they get on a train without purchasing a ticket beforehand so why would they bother just because they may have read the small print of their card so done a double check.

You cant keep blaming the railways for something which they cannot have any control over when it is a different entity who have control over issuing the cards.

As above essentially. I am not blaming the railways for the different type of cards. Of course that would be silly. But there is no way at all that the railways should be advertising methods of payment as being accepted when they are not accepted. There isn't a maybe about it. It is pretty damn obvious that NRE should have a note saying about certain card types etc. I agree a lot of people wouldn't bother paying attention to it. But then it would be solely their fault. Right now in that situation I would put a lot of the blame on the railways for not advertising that those cards are not accepted.

 

[221129]

But these online only cards ARE accepted at TVMs and at Ticket Offices. So the railway does accept these methods of payment.

 

[PermitToTravel]

If I was travelling from an unmanned station without already being in possession of a valid ticket I would ensure that I had adequate means of payment on my person. We all know that cards can sometimes play up, be declined or whatever (a few years ago a mainframe crashed somewhere and my card stopped working for a day). So I would ensure that I had enough cash to cover the purchase, not only that but a sensible denomination too.

Off topic, but when this happens the card will contain to work on trains, and everywhere else that doesn't authorise online

 

[WelshBluebird]

But these online only cards ARE accepted at TVMs and at Ticket Offices. So the railway does accept these methods of payment.

But not on board trains, which in many areas is the only place to buy tickets (unless in advance and getting them in the post).

Also the NRE site seems to say that the same payment methods are accepted on board trains as at stations, so there is another issue with incorrect information there too.

 

[221129]

FGW do have signs at their ticket offices stating that some cards aren't accepted on board.

 

[Clip]

As above essentially. I am not blaming the railways for the different type of cards. Of course that would be silly. But there is no way at all that the railways should be advertising methods of payment as being accepted when they are not accepted. There isn't a maybe about it. It is pretty damn obvious that NRE should have a note saying about certain card types etc. I agree a lot of people wouldn't bother paying attention to it. But then it would be solely their fault. Right now in that situation I would put a lot of the blame on the railways for not advertising that those cards are not accepted.

So another bit of writing in a book no-one really reads will be ok then? Christ theres too much of it about now and people even walk past bright yellow posters saying 'BUY A TICKET OR YOU WILL GO TO JAIL' but still they take no notice.

All that has to be done is make the bank all cards work and if that means people get into debt trhough not having enough money on their card(they know they dont thats why they try to use them) then let the bank deal with getting that money back from them. Or get the banks to print something on the cards themselves.

 

[island]

All that has to be done is make the bank all cards work and if that means people get into debt trhough not having enough money on their card(they know they dont thats why they try to use them) then let the bank deal with getting that money back from them. Or get the banks to print something on the cards themselves.

If the railway does develop a way to authorise these cards online, one suspects they will decline anyway for lack of funds, judging from the posts some guards have added with their experiences of phoning through to merchant services.

 

[D6975]

Even if the ticket you need cost, say, £100 or more?

Yes, why not?

ps - I would usually have bought such a ticket well in advance, but I realise that not all journeys can be planned well ahead. Still no excuse for not having a means of payment.

 

[Clip]

If the railway does develop a way to authorise these cards online, one suspects they will decline anyway for lack of funds, judging from the posts some guards have added with their experiences of phoning through to merchant services.

They more than likely will do BUT it will at least stop the chancers, as we have seen on many threads, from pretending they didnt know their card was not to be used offline and so they will think of another way. It doesnt even need the railway to do that, the banks are more than capable of making all their cards available to be used.

 

[michael769]

If the railway does develop a way to authorise these cards online, one suspects they will decline anyway for lack of funds, judging from the posts some guards have added with their experiences of phoning through to merchant services.

No doubt. But the currents situation is that it is impossible to prove that the passenger is pulling a fast one (and of course there will inevitably be the odd perfectly innocent person who is unaware their card will not work), and the railway is effectively willfully refusing payment by a means that most advertise as being acceptable.

In the case of no funds it is clearly the sole responsibility of the passenger to ensure that they have funds on their card and so it is easier for the railway to take enforcement action if it sees fit.

And, of course it will make it harder for anyone wanting to pull a fast one and they have to make sure the card has no funds - which means they would not have the option of using it in the shops/pub/club. Not impossible to get around but it does ramp up the inconvenience for them and that will put some of the opportunists off.

Of course the real solution is to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities at every station so that there is no excuse for travelling without money to pay for it.

 

[jb]

Of course the real solution is to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities at every station so that there is no excuse for travelling without money to pay for it.

Other than being:

(a) impossible - because "adequate" actually means "cover the remotest possibility the most imaginative minds can drum up", as this thread already shows (it completely precludes unmanned stations)

(b) almost completely ineffective (because "no excuse" is meaningless so long as "I didn't know" is accepted as a catch-all get-out clause, as it is now, and as it would be then)

then yes, this is the real solution.

 

[PermitToTravel]

They more than likely will do BUT it will at least stop the chancers, as we have seen on many threads, from pretending they didnt know their card was not to be used offline and so they will think of another way. It doesnt even need the railway to do that, the banks are more than capable of making all their cards available to be used.

Are you suggesting that all debit cards should authorise transactions without first confirming that sufficient funds are available?

 

[reb0118]

Of course the real solution is to p......

.....ut them off at the next stop. I am becoming increasingly hard on known defaulters with regard to declined card transactions. My philosophy is as follows:-

1) Friendly chat about online/offline cards and their limitations. Personal details taken. Filed

2) Formal chat. Personal details taken & forwarded (along with details of 1st incident) to manager. Warning that if I see them again without ticket or means to pay then they will be put off train.

3) Put off train. Usual caveats apply to vulnerable passengers &c.

 

[Lad Brookes]

Of course the real solution is to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities at every station so that there is no excuse for travelling without money to pay for it.

I'm looking forward to applying for the position of booking office clerk at Norton Bridge.

 

[Clip]

Are you suggesting that all debit cards should authorise transactions without first confirming that sufficient funds are available?

Yes, why not? It is the passengers responsibility to pay for their fare is it not? So if they get into debt through not having enough money on their card then so be it.

Why should it be a burden on the railway on not the person? As has been said many times on this thread alone among other threads, is that people wilfully use these cards because they knwo they wont be accepted so they either get a nice free ride or get put off at the next staion to get the next train. This is not acceptable behaviour and if they knew they would get into debt with their bank then they would think again.


Why is everything the bloody railways fault on this issue? Yes they cant accept certain cards on trains but that is one small issue - the rest of it is up to the bank and the passenger.

If genuine people had cards that were able to do oiffline transactions then they would have nothing to worry about as they would have the money in the bank for when the Avantix docks at the end of the shift. No worries there.


So what was your problem with what I said again?

 

[Muzer]

The fact that banks can't reclaim money from people under the age of 18 who go into debt.

 

[Clip]

The fact that banks can't reclaim money from people under the age of 18 who go into debt.

Dont issue them any form of debit card then.

Next.

 

[reb0118]

So what was your problem with what I said again?

I realise that comment was not directed at me but I for one agree with your suggestion. That said, how about this workaround:-

"All card transactions must firstly processed through the chip n pin device, this will help verify that the card-holder is the rightful holder, and if declined any transaction under a set limit (say £10 for argument's sake) can be swiped without prior authorisation and will be honoured by the bank. Transactions over the limit must be pre authorised via the helpline prior to swiping

Enable the Thyron or PDA or both with a system that can identify "hot" or stolen cards and issue staff clear guidelines as to when cards should be retained. Also enable the Thyron to log "declined" transactions so the details of frequent decliners can be logged onto a database for fraud prevention purposes.

 

[jon0844]

It would be rather unfair that someone under the age of 18 couldn't get access to their own money (besides using an ATM and having to carry cash), considering you can open a bank account as a minor.

However, that doesn't mean merchants suddenly have to accept cards that they can't authorise - which they wouldn't be allowed to do anyway so it's not even an idea that any TOC could entertain.

 

[island]

They more than likely will do BUT it will at least stop the chancers, as we have seen on many threads, from pretending they didnt know their card was not to be used offline and so they will think of another way. It doesnt even need the railway to do that, the banks are more than capable of making all their cards available to be used.

To be honest the responsibility to change does really rest with the railway. No new merchants are allowed to have offline-only equipment and it's not reasonable to expect banks to take credit risks with low-income customers.

 

[bnm]

"All card transactions must firstly processed through the chip n pin device, this will help verify that the card-holder is the rightful holder..."

And those with Chip & Signature cards? Or foreign nationals with cards that have no chip? How are their payments taken with this 'all' encompassing idea?

 

[sheff1]

Other than being:

(a) impossible - because "adequate" actually means "cover the remotest possibility the most imaginative minds can drum up", as this thread already shows (it completely precludes unmanned stations)

Nonsense. Works perfectly well at unmanned stations elsewhere.

 

[Eagle]

Nonsense. Works perfectly well at unmanned stations elsewhere.

Do you mean having a ticket vending machine at an unmanned station? Because that is not fully adequate, as there are many tickets one might wish to buy that a TVM can't sell (most notably some of the more obscure discounts, and many machines won't sell tickets from other origins).

 

[jb]

Nonsense. Works perfectly well at unmanned stations elsewhere.

You insist on not getting it. It is not nonsense because I am talking about, as you certainly well know, the wriggling and squirming in what-iffery that ultimately means it's all or nothing, full facilities or not. Of course, all-or-nothing is silly but equally obviously, the problem is the premise not the conclusion.

I know you don't want to accept it but those goalposts are a heavy burden.

 

[Haywain]

I realise that comment was not directed at me but I for one agree with your suggestion. That said, how about this workaround:-

"All card transactions must firstly processed through the chip n pin device, this will help verify that the card-holder is the rightful holder, and if declined any transaction under a set limit (say £10 for argument's sake) can be swiped without prior authorisation and will be honoured by the bank. Transactions over the limit must be pre authorised via the helpline prior to swiping

Enable the Thyron or PDA or both with a system that can identify "hot" or stolen cards and issue staff clear guidelines as to when cards should be retained. Also enable the Thyron to log "declined" transactions so the details of frequent decliners can be logged onto a database for fraud prevention purposes.

I'd like to pick a few holes in your suggestion, but I haven't got time. Suffice to say that PCI DSS eliminates much of what you propose.

 

[michael769]

Do you mean having a ticket vending machine at an unmanned station? Because that is not fully adequate, as there are many tickets one might wish to buy that a TVM can't sell (most notably some of the more obscure discounts, and many machines won't sell tickets from other origins).

But that simply comes back to the railway installing kit that is not fit for purpose. There is absolutely nothing preventing them getting software installed that could achieve such a feat.

 

[sheff1]

You insist on not getting it. It is not nonsense because I am talking about, as you certainly well know, the wriggling and squirming in what-iffery that ultimately means it's all or nothing, full facilities or not. Of course, all-or-nothing is silly but equally obviously, the problem is the premise not the conclusion.

I know you don't want to accept it but those goalposts are a heavy burden.

If I understood this I might be able to reply ....

But that simply comes back to the railway installing kit that is not fit for purpose. There is absolutely nothing preventing them getting software installed that could achieve such a feat.

Exactly

 

[Llanigraham]

To be honest the responsibility to change does really rest with the railway. No new merchants are allowed to have offline-only equipment and it's not reasonable to expect banks to take credit risks with low-income customers.

Really?
Can you provide evidence for that comment?
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It would be rather unfair that someone under the age of 18 couldn't get access to their own money (besides using an ATM and having to carry cash), considering you can open a bank account as a minor.

Agreed, but an under 18 cannot go into Debit, by Law, and your system could allow that.
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But that simply comes back to the railway installing kit that is not fit for purpose. There is absolutely nothing preventing them getting software installed that could achieve such a feat.

What a good idea! NOT!!
Now tell me how they would fit a TVM at Sugar Loaf Halt?
The only electric there is solar.

And I suspect it isn't the only station in the UK that doesn't have mains electric.
Or a telephone line or mobile signal!!