FGW kicked vulnerable passenger off train because card machine wasn't working

[richw]

There has been a lot of "fraud" from offline cards and train journeys including a high profile case in South Devon. With the disabilities mentioned, knowing people with similar conditions they get very aggressive if put in confrontational situations.

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/Studen...tory-11700222-detail/story.html#axzz2fYPOiZif This one was in the same area as this story, so I'm guessing Devon Guards are extra vigilant.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ared-jail-20-000-class-rail-ticket-fraud.html This one involved a Lloyds debit card and a 19 year old.
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and perhaps isn;t paying much in a month ( ESA and DLA IF he gets them directly otherwise an allowance from whoever has PoA)

It says he was on his way to work, so unless he was on a very low paid job wouldn't be eligible, believe only eligible if earn less than £100 p/w.

(I wouldn't get out of bed for £100 p/w, how on earth can anyone survive off that?)

 

[185]

Something has gone horribly wrong somewhere if someone under 18 has been issued with an offline authorisation card - are you sure that it works in train guards' ticket machines?

Been like that for some time. In 2009, one abusive girl was insistent on paying child fare with one - she tried to buy a child ticket although she had actually turned 16 four months earlier. When police called Lloyds Bank, the bank stated the debit card she held, was "correctly" issued when she was 'just turned 15'.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I must have been issued with a card that allows both online and offline transactions. I have used it on trains a few times. The only time it has failed is when the guards chip and pin reader is not working. On those occasions it was swiped. Incidentally all them occasions were on EMT but that's not to say it hasn't worked with them before.

 

[Muzer]

I looked today at the National Rail site and, sure enough, it has a list of acceptable payment methods for tickets http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx . It doesn't mention anything about online only cards not being allowed, and it indeed lists a few brands of cards as examples of cards that are accepted which includes some that can be online only, so I would conclude that, completely theoretically speaking, if my only method of payment is an online only card and I didn't have an opportunity to buy before boarding, I should be allowed to buy at the other end (assuming there's an opportunity to buy there!) without penalty.

Not that I would do this intentionally.

 

[richw]

I honestly don't know whether my debit card is online or offline, although saying that I used it on the plane back from Tenerife and I guess they're offline?

 

[island]

I looked today at the National Rail site and, sure enough, it has a list of acceptable payment methods for tickets http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx . It doesn't mention anything about online only cards not being allowed, and it indeed lists a few brands of cards as examples of cards that are accepted which includes some that can be online only, so I would conclude that, completely theoretically speaking, if my only method of payment is an online only card and I didn't have an opportunity to buy before boarding, I should be allowed to buy at the other end (assuming there's an opportunity to buy there!) without penalty.

Not that I would do this intentionally.

In practice people without any other method of payment besides an online only card may be offered an unpaid fares notice. However, I think many of the users of these cards know exactly what they're doing, and if they genuinely wanted to pay the fare, they would have obtained the means to do so before travelling. This matter came up in a conversation I had with an FGW guard one evening on a late Swansea to Paddington service where he said so many people got on at Neath and Port Talbot Parkway (which have no ticketing facilities in the evening) wanting to pay with cards they knew would be rejected, and he had only time to sell to two or three coaches before they all got off at Cardiff.

 

[34D]

If my card (lloyds) worked on one train but was declined on another (same TOC, same Saturday, account balance fine) does that suggest mine is online and offline?

Why on earth can't we go back to Delta and Electron here?

 

[bb21]

If you hit the floor limit on the first train then your card will not work again until you have reset it in a cash machine or at an online sales terminal, even though it is not online only.

 

[michael769]

Why on earth can't we go back to Delta and Electron here?

A more apt question is why ToCs continue to refuse to issue their staff with card readers that are fit for purpose?

I know that there will always be issues with online authorization on trains due to signal loss, but much of the network is covered by a decent signal so it would work more often than not.

Incidentally on Friday the young lassie across the aisle from me offered a online only card for payment of her fare, when the conductor whipped out her phone and called in for authorization the lassie (who had somehow managed to board at a manned and barriered station) did not look best pleased. :-P

Under 18's can be given a enforceable loan if someone over 18 acts as guarantor. I was issued with a proper debit card and cheque guarantee card (backed by a guarantee from my parents) when I was 16.

 

[34D]

If you hit the floor limit on the first train then your card will not work again until you have reset it in a cash machine or at an online sales terminal, even though it is not online only.

What would we expect the floor limit to be? Both transactions were £6 weekend first upgrades. Account balance on the day in question will have been low hundreds.

 

[John @ home]

What would we expect the floor limit to be? Both transactions were £6 weekend first upgrades. Account balance on the day in question will have been low hundreds.

It's complex. For example the offline limit may be

• not more than £20 in this transaction, and
• not more than £80 in total in offline transactions since the last online transaction, and
• not more than 6 offline transactions since the last online transaction.

The fact that the card holder usually doesn't know whether a transaction has been processed online or offline adds additional uncertainly.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It's complex. For example the offline limit may be

• not more than £20 in this transaction, and
• not more than £80 in total in offline transactions since the last online transaction, and
• not more than 6 offline transactions since the last online transaction.

The fact that the card holder usually doesn't know whether a transaction has been processed online or offline adds additional uncertainly.

How the hell is anyone supposed to actually know that?
It is a bit of a joke really. Especially when the railways say they accept a visa debit card. If you say you accept a card then you should be able to accept it!

If the card companies / banks change what is issued (from say a Visa electron to a Visa debit that is online only), then the railways should update their advertising of what payment methods are accepted, or roll out new systems to ensure what they say is accepted still actually is.

 

[Clip]

How the hell is anyone supposed to actually know that?
It is a bit of a joke really. Especially when the railways say they accept a visa debit card. If you say you accept a card then you should be able to accept it!

If the card companies / banks change what is issued (from say a Visa electron to a Visa debit that is online only), then the railways should update their advertising of what payment methods are accepted, or roll out new systems to ensure what they say is accepted still actually is.

But it is not the railways who put such restrictions on cards usage though is it? If the banks are going to carry on chopping and changing what they call the things,how they can be used then why is the railway getting the blame here?


And I cant be bothered checking but does our literature not state all MAJOR credit and debit cards accepted?

 

[34D]

And I cant be bothered checking but does our literature not state all MAJOR credit and debit cards accepted?

Good point. 30 years ago it was easy. We had visa and mastercard. Both only given to people with good credit records.

10 years ago we had visa and mastercard (credit cards), plus delta and switch debit cards (again, for people of good credit), plus Electron and Solo for younger people (etc) and international Maestro for those visiting from Europe (was Cirrus ever a brand of card?).

I recall getting my first solo card, in the mid 90s.

It's complex. For example the offline limit may be

• not more than £20 in this transaction, and
• not more than £80 in total in offline transactions since the last online transaction, and
• not more than 6 offline transactions since the last online transaction.

The fact that the card holder usually doesn't know whether a transaction has been processed online or offline adds additional uncertainly.

I'm slightly confused. If a guard on a train swipes my card, then (presumably) the first the railways merchant (and my issuer) know about it is end of shift, when that machine is plugged in and downloaded?

In which case, I could surely buy six tickets from various guards before my bank has actually realised that I have made 6 transactions?

A further question: is the auto decline set by the TOC's merchant, or by the issuer? I assume in each case it is bin range dependant?

 

[Llanigraham]

How the hell is anyone supposed to actually know that?
It is a bit of a joke really. Especially when the railways say they accept a visa debit card. If you say you accept a card then you should be able to accept it!

If the card companies / banks change what is issued (from say a Visa electron to a Visa debit that is online only), then the railways should update their advertising of what payment methods are accepted, or roll out new systems to ensure what they say is accepted still actually is.

Because the limits are set by the BANK, not the Railway, and will be stated in the BANK'S Terms and Conditions, which of course nobody bothers to read (until something goers wrong)

 

[John @ home]

I could surely buy six tickets from various guards before my bank has actually realised that I have made 6 transactions?

But the card knows you have reached one of the limits, and insists the next successful transaction is online.

 

[WelshBluebird]

But it is not the railways who put such restrictions on cards usage though is it? If the banks are going to carry on chopping and changing what they call the things,how they can be used then why is the railway getting the blame here?

Because the railways advertise they accept Visa Debit cards, without any mention of caveats regarding online only cards etc. But as we know (but many "normal people don't), that simply is not the case.

And I cant be bothered checking but does our literature not state all MAJOR credit and debit cards accepted?

It does, and then says such as "Visa". Now if my card is a visa debit card, even if I know it is an online only card, reading what NRE says how the hell am I supposed to know I may not be able to use that card? At the very least NRE should have a caveat saying if your card is an online only card then it may not work.

Because the limits are set by the BANK, not the Railway, and will be stated in the BANK'S Terms and Conditions, which of course nobody bothers to read (until something goers wrong)

But the fact these limits apply to transactions that occur on board a train (and presumably at stations where the tickets are sold by the same machines as guards use) are NOT advertised by the railway (at least it isn't on NRE anyway, which is supposed to be the definitive source of information).

 

[jb]

This is a particularly silly example of the forum getting itself wound-up in the most esoteric and theoretical stuff it can contrive.

Because the railways advertise they accept Visa Debit cards, without any mention of caveats regarding online only cards etc. But as we know (but many "normal people don't), that simply is not the case.

Take a guess at the number of incidents that would pan out differently than they do now, were the railways to accurately advertise the ins and outs of online only cards and the like.

Remember you need to consider the following:

(the number of people affected by these issues now)
x
(the fraction of those people who would read the 14 pages of prose needed to describe things accurately)
x
(the fraction of those people who would understand what they've read and act accordingly)

If you get an answer above 0, let us know.

 

[Flamingo]

Good Post.

This is a particularly silly example of the forum getting itself wound-up in the most esoteric and theoretical stuff it can contrive.



Take a guess at the number of incidents that would pan out differently than they do now, were the railways to accurately advertise the ins and outs of online only cards and the like.

Remember you need to consider the following:

(the number of people affected by these issues now)
x
(the fraction of those people who would read the 14 pages of prose needed to describe things accurately)
x
(the fraction of those people who would understand what they've read and act accordingly)

If you get an answer above 0, let us know.

At this stage, is it worth renaming the thread something less "confrontational" as a. The discussion is not about the original post and b. the thread title is about as accurate as a headline from the old Sunday Sport in the first place.

Mods?

 

[Clip]

Because the railways advertise they accept Visa Debit cards, without any mention of caveats regarding online only cards etc. But as we know (but many "normal people don't), that simply is not the case.



It does, and then says such as "Visa". Now if my card is a visa debit card, even if I know it is an online only card, reading what NRE says how the hell am I supposed to know I may not be able to use that card? At the very least NRE should have a caveat saying if your card is an online only card then it may not work.



But the fact these limits apply to transactions that occur on board a train (and presumably at stations where the tickets are sold by the same machines as guards use) are NOT advertised by the railway (at least it isn't on NRE anyway, which is supposed to be the definitive source of information).

But its not the railways fault that there are different cards that say Visa, its the banks fault. Maybe the banks who issue these cards should actually let the customer know that they may not be able to use it for certain transactions - oh , they do? But its hidden in the small print when they get the card isnt it and no customer is going to read all they, they're just excited to get a shiny new card in the post so they can start using it.

Maybe NRE should have a note mentioning the use of certain cards cant be used, but then how many passengers actually read them anyway again. They seem to be ignorant of them when they get on a train without purchasing a ticket beforehand so why would they bother just because they may have read the small print of their card so done a double check.

You cant keep blaming the railways for something which they cannot have any control over when it is a different entity who have control over issuing the cards.

 

[michael769]

You cant keep blaming the railways for something which they cannot have any control over when it is a different entity who have control over issuing the cards.

But the railway do have control over the equipment they issue to staff, the procedures that they train staff in and the advice that they give to customers.

 

[Haywain]

But the railway do have control over the equipment they issue to staff, the procedures that they train staff in and the advice that they give to customers.

You are so right. After all, no bank has ever acted in a way that might inconvenience its customers, has it?

 

[Clip]

But the railway do have control over the equipment they issue to staff, the procedures that they train staff in and the advice that they give to customers.

They do. But why should the railway go to extra expense when they are not the ones who are putting the barrier in there in the first place? Yes wifi Avantix would be great even 3G so you get as strong a signall as possible over most of the country but that costs. And then what if the signal drops out as it is prone to doing even when me laptop is right next to the router at home?Or the transmitter/reciever breaks for whatever reason on route?


But that will still be the railways fault wont it?



Oh I have to ask again - what about the cost in upgrading the Avantix?And the maintenence, and if you go down the 3G route also, the monthly cost to have that facility too? Over hundreds if not thousands of machines?

Prepared to pay for that just so that people with certain cards - who are in a minority I do believe, can pay for a ticket on the train like everyone else?

 

[Flamingo]

Don't forget that a significant proportion of that minority will be people who should have bought their ticket before travelling, as they started from stations where facilities were available.

 

[Clip]

Don't forget that a significant proportion of that minority will be people who should have bought their ticket before travelling, as they started from stations where facilities were available.

Who could forget that

 

[michael769]

You are so right. After all, no bank has ever acted in a way that might inconvenience its customers, has it?

Last time I looked I was not paying the bank for my train tickets!
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They do. But why should the railway go to extra expense when they are not the ones who are putting the barrier in there in the first place?

But they are. The cards issued are perfectly usable and people use them day in and day out in shops of all types.

If an independent shop with 3 staff can do it why is it so hard for businesses that employ 100s of people?

 

[Eagle]

Last time I looked I was not paying the bank for my train tickets!

You are if you pay by card. The bank will levy a small fee on every card transaction. (That's why a lot of places don't like you paying less than £5 by card, because at such small prices the fee takes a big hit on the profit margin.)

 

[sheff1]

And I cant be bothered checking but does our literature not state all MAJOR credit and debit cards accepted?

It does, but what does that actually mean? Why should anyone think that a Visa Debit card issued by, say, Lloyds Bank is anything other than 'major' ?

 

[D6975]

If I was travelling from an unmanned station without already being in possession of a valid ticket I would ensure that I had adequate means of payment on my person. We all know that cards can sometimes play up, be declined or whatever (a few years ago a mainframe crashed somewhere and my card stopped working for a day). So I would ensure that I had enough cash to cover the purchase, not only that but a sensible denomination too.

 

[Eagle]

So I would ensure that I had enough cash to cover the purchase, not only that but a sensible denomination too.

Even if the ticket you need cost, say, £100 or more?