FGW kicked vulnerable passenger off train because card machine wasn't working

[soil]

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1857918-enraged-with-First-Great-Western-rail

this morning my DS who has special needs, and operates at a level younger than his years (AS, Dyspraxia and Dyslexia) caught a train from St James station in exeter to get him to work. His offices are in the process of moving.
He got on the train and took a seat. When the ticket officer arrived he presented him with his card to pay for a ticket.
the card machine wasnt working, so he told DS to get off at the next stop.
DS rang our house phone (i am up north) at just gone 9am. I wasnt in. He was panicking because he did not know where he was, and his google maps on his phone was not working. He had no idea what to do.

in the end he rang a colleague who went to find him.

(There is no TVM or ticket office at St James Park according to NR: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/SJP.aspx)

 

[BestWestern]

Not enough detail here to make a fair judgement, but one crucial point that needs laying down - unless the individual had a condition which was plainly apparent, or informed the Guard that they did, then any outrage about a vulnerable person is simply not applicable here. If that information is not known, staff cannot be put at fault for not acting accordingly, whatever else may have taken place rightly or wrongly.

As for the ticket issue, 'card machine not working' could cover many things. I would hazard a guess that the passenger's card would not process via chip and pin likely due to the usual issues of offline transaction restrictions. We don't know any details here though, so shouldn't speculate. The Guard may have been wrong in not processing a valid card by other means, but equally the passenger may not have signed their signature strip and validated the card for manual transaction for example.

 

[Muzer]

I don't think people should get kicked off trains for having online-only cards anyway. How are people who don't use trains very frequently to know that:

a) Their cards ARE online-only (I certainly didn't)
b) Guards' card readers aren't connected to the internet.

 

[soil]

It's reasonably likely that the passenger had an electronic-only card, given that he appears to be quite young (early 20s at the most).

 

[Mojo]

It's reasonably likely that the passenger had an electronic-only card, given that he appears to be quite young (early 20s at the most).

Possibly, but it has been reported in the past that Lloyds cards frequently do not work offline, even where there is no reason why this should be the case (i.e. the person is of the right age, has an overdraft and so on). Someone on here did explain why the last time this came up, but I cannot find this thread at present.

 

[BestWestern]

I don't think people should get kicked off trains for having online-only cards anyway. How are people who don't use trains very frequently to know that:

a) Their cards ARE online-only (I certainly didn't)
b) Guards' card readers aren't connected to the internet.

I entirely agree. There is an option of processing said cards manually, by keying in the details on Avantix, which will then process and issue the tickets. However, the exact advice regarding when to do this can sometimes be a little vague depending on your TOC and location - it carries a risk of bank 'chargebacks' if the transaction later fails due to insufficient funds, hence there is a reluctance to sanction it. As I mentioned above though, there could be other factors such as the passenger not having signed the strip on the reverse of the card, which technically makes it invalid.

 

[Flamingo]

Was the "next stop" an unmanned station, or a manned station with facilities for the chap to buy a ticket?

To many questions, and absolutely no way of finding out the answers.

Not that it will stop the usual suspects starting up the Outrage Bus.
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I don't think people should get kicked off trains for having online-only cards anyway. How are people who don't use trains very frequently to know that:

a) Their cards ARE online-only (I certainly didn't)
b) Guards' card readers aren't connected to the internet.

I know several regulars who try to exploit online-only cards. They have been VERY upset when I rang for authorisation, and the card was declined, with a request to retain in on some occasions.

 

[455driver]

Of course we dont actually know the facts in this case, the OPs Mum (always a neutral in any dispute ) has posted what she has been told by her son (who may or may not have told her the whole story) and so a huge pinch of salt may be in order.

St James Park is a very short platform and if the train is a bit long it will be local door only and what some guards do in this situation is issue tickets before allowing the passengers on, this may or (probably) may not have any bearing on being kicked off the train.

Does anyone know when this alleged incident took place, I might be able to glean some more info from some conductors I know down at Exeter.

 

[soil]

Was the "next stop" an unmanned station, or a manned station with facilities for the chap to buy a ticket?

To many questions, and absolutely no way of finding out the answers.

Well you could ask the OP on the linked thread.

I don't think it's very reasonable to kick him off at a manned station to buy a ticket though, as it's likely to make him late for work, as he would then have to wait for the next train.
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Does anyone know when this alleged incident took place, I might be able to glean some more info from some conductors I know down at Exeter.

It does say 'this morning', and the post was made yesterday.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Of course we shouldn't rule out a dodgy card machine either.

 

[455driver]

It does say 'this morning', and the post was made yesterday.

So that would be Thursday morning then!

I even know what day it is, that makes a change, normally I dont have a clue.
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Of course we shouldn't rule out a dodgy card machine either.

Indeed, there are more questions than answers but it certainly isnt normal practice to kick people off trains down there, normally an RPI will be requested to do the train for a few days in a row so the matter can be sorted out one way or another.

 

[CNash]

Isn't the usual course of action in these situations to issue a penalty fare or unpaid fare notice?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

It's reasonably likely that the passenger had an electronic-only card, given that he appears to be quite young (early 20s at the most).

Not all young people cards are electronic only. I'm well under 20 and I have a card which can be used for online and offline transactions.

 

[Zoidberg]

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1857918-enraged-with-First-Great-Western-rail

this morning my DS ...

... so he told DS to get off at the next stop.

DS rang our house phone

...

(There is no TVM or ticket office at St James Park according to NR: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/SJP.aspx)

It'll probably be obvious once I'm told, but what is a "DS"?

 

[Eagle]

A son. (A daughter would be DD.)

It's part of the Mumsnet cult mythos to use those abbreviations.


I wonder if it leads to confusion due to how in the real world DS often refers to Down syndrome.

 

[Zoidberg]

A son. (A daughter would be DD.)

It's part of the Mumsnet cult mythos to use those abbreviations.


I wonder if it leads to confusion due to how in the real world DS often refers to Down syndrome.

Ah, thank you. And, now that I know, it's not obvious at all. DM (Dopey Mum) for using daft abbreviations.

 

[Flamingo]

Isn't the usual course of action in these situations to issue a penalty fare or unpaid fare notice?

Ordinary guards can't issue PF's (even if appropriate), and issuing an UFN takes so long as to be totally impractical for a guard in most cases.

However, there are ways around a declined card, and I'm sure there is more to the story than "Your card's been declined, get off!".

We all deal with declined cards day in day out, it's not uncommon, and if the only thing in the situation is a passenger from an unmanned station with a declined card going on a short journey, I personally do not know any Guard who would consider asking the passenger to leave at another unmanned station to be the solution to the problem.
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Well you could ask the OP .

Sorry, life's too short to start joining another forum. If she want's to come here, I'm sure that she will find lots of support and encouragement (regardless of who's fault it eventually turns out to be).

 

[jon0844]

Ah, thank you. And, now that I know, it's not obvious at all. DM (Dopey Mum) for using daft abbreviations.

As a new father (well, not so new now) I have to say that when me and the wife checked out both mumsnet and netmums - the abbreviations and other talk was quite scary.

Which one of the sites claimed that it was so big it could bring down a Government because of all the power and influence, as against it being mostly a bunch of cliquey mums that think they know it all but really don't?

 

[soil]

Ordinary guards can't issue PF's (even if appropriate), and issuing an UFN takes so long as to be totally impractical for a guard in most cases.

However, there are ways around a declined card, and I'm sure there is more to the story than "Your card's been declined, get off!".

We all deal with declined cards day in day out, it's not uncommon, and if the only thing in the situation is a passenger from an unmanned station with a declined card going on a short journey, I personally do not know any Guard who would consider asking the passenger to leave at another unmanned station to be the solution to the problem.

It doesn't appear that the passenger was necessarily kicked off at an unmanned station. He boarded at one is all we know.

 

[SS4]

Of course we dont actually know the facts in this case, the OPs Mum (always a neutral in any dispute )

Seems strange that a seemingly large number of people always take what close friends and family say at face value. Not on this forum so much but certainly in the news as a whole

 

[LateThanNever]

It doesn't appear that the passenger was necessarily kicked off at an unmanned station. He boarded at one is all we know.

If, as Dopey Mum says, Dopey Son was working in Exeter then he would have got 'kicked off' at Exeter Central (next stop) - well staffed during the day complete with ticket office at one end of the station, then next stop after that Exeter St David's - even better staffed. So an inconvenience perhaps and a long walk if you want the 'other end' of Exeter Central, but not a major crisis!

 

[Flamingo]

It doesn't appear that the passenger was necessarily kicked off at an unmanned station. He boarded at one is all we know.

Well, if he was "kicked off" at a manned station, why all the fuss?

 

[Oswyntail]

....the abbreviations and other talk was quite scary.

Which one of the sites claimed that it was so big it could bring down a Government because of all the power and influence, as against it being mostly a bunch of cliquey .... that think they know it all but really don't?

That sounds very familiar

One thing did occur to me, that the behaviour of someone with more than mild Asperger's (as this lad had, according to the abbreviations!) in an unfamiliar situation can come across as being very aggressive. So possibly just a very unfortunate misreading on both sides.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Well, if he was "kicked off" at a manned station, why all the fuss?

Because getting "kicked off" at an unfamiliar place can be daunting at the best of times, let alone if you have special needs (or whatever the PC term for that is these days).

 

[Flamingo]

Because getting "kicked off" at an unfamiliar place can be daunting at the best of times, let alone if you have special needs (or whatever the PC term for that is these days).

Anyway, it's all assumption at the moment.

 

[SS4]

Paddington is unfamiliar to me

 

[yorkie]

Without knowing for sure that it was a valid card and that it really was a case of the card machine not working, it is impossible to give a definitive comment on this matter.

But IF those claims are true, then it's totally incorrect and FGW need to sort it out.

But IF, however, it's an electronic use only card, then unless the passenger explained their personal circumstances I do not see how the guard can be blamed for this.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Not all young people cards are electronic only. I'm well under 20 and I have a card which can be used for online and offline transactions.

Something has gone horribly wrong somewhere if someone under 18 has been issued with an offline authorisation card - are you sure that it works in train guards' ticket machines?

 

[starrymarkb]

Something has gone horribly wrong somewhere if someone under 18 has been issued with an offline authorisation card - are you sure that it works in train guards' ticket machines?

Indeed, in fact it would be illegal to issue a card to an Under 18 where it is possible to become overdrawn. Also if the DS is as vulnerable as claimed maybe it would be worth them going via Central (just a few mins walk away) which would have online machines and staff to assist if required.

 

[soil]

If, as Dopey Mum says, Dopey Son was working in Exeter then he would have got 'kicked off' at Exeter Central (next stop) - well staffed during the day complete with ticket office at one end of the station, then next stop after that Exeter St David's - even better staffed. So an inconvenience perhaps and a long walk if you want the 'other end' of Exeter Central, but not a major crisis!

If you read the thread, helpfully linked in the OP, it doesn't say that the passenger was working at Exeter, it says that he boarded at St James, Exeter. We don't know where he was working.

And it could be a major crisis if you are are not really fully functioning due to disabilities, as also explained in the OP.
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But IF, however, it's an electronic use only card, then unless the passenger explained their personal circumstances I do not see how the guard can be blamed for this.

Where is it made clear at unmanned stations that you cannot board a train unless you possess the right kind of debit card?