Use of force by RPIs / RPOs

[Flamingo]

RJ, in my experience, the fact that somebody works on the railway usually counts in their favour and means that staff will usually cut them a lot of slack. Also, your tales of sorrow and woe involve a lot of different train companies, with staff who I doubt have an opportunity to compare notes.

You have my sympathy, especially if factors involving discrimination are as big a factor as you say, but I still think you seem to have a lot of bad luck.

 

[Fare-Cop]

The nature of internet forums is such that any reader only ever gets to read one side of the alleged dispute.

In my opinion, (for what that's worth) this is invariably a posting of one of two basic types. Either

i) a comment by the person who wants to make a big issue of the fact that they feel hard done by, or
ii) an enquiry by a person who is genuinely seeking advice as to whether or not they are correct in their opinion, which has been disputed by a.n.other in an effort to resolve, or assist others to avoid similar misunderstandings.

We will never get (and neither should we get) the ticket inspector posting: 'Well, you've all read Mr X's interpretation of what happened, here's mine and by the way, the outcome was that the Court agreed with me.'

Where disputed opinion is concerned there are always two sides to each story.

Neither opinion is more valid than the other until one has been proven to be correct and the other incorrect, even if merely because of misunderstanding.

If an opinion is proven to be incorrect then there is absolutely no reason why the person holding that incorrect view should not say 'I'm sorry, I misunderstood' where that is the case, or 'I'm sorry I was wrong' and no reason why the person who has been vindicated should not accept that apology with equal good grace.

It isn't the ticket inspector who will issue any Summons and there is no reason that any prosecutor should proceed in a case that is plainly wrong.

Lots of irrelevances and discussing 'ifs & buts' will never alter that.

In the more than 30 years experience I've had in this game, I can count the number of 'repeat offenders' that I've found to be truly difficult on the fingers of one hand and have two to spare!.

 

[pethadine82]

After reading some of the letters it is shocking to see that one cannot spell basic words such as polite.
Who hires these idiots?

 

[455driver]

Here is a copy of a link to a newspaper article in America, I cant remember who posted it but I saved it on my computer a few years ago.



The last couple of sentences always makes me smile, they must have high kerbs in America.

 

[s3an]

A lot of it seems to be down to a small number ticket inspectors with a certain mindset not wanting to listen to someone my age. Once they make their mind up (which is done before I open my mouth) then that's it. I can't do much about that but to be honest, between my four jobs, social life and hobbies, I don't have much time to think about why, or care for that matter.

I am probably quite a bit older than you and I used to have problems with a FGW train manager a few years ago.
There used to be a very early morning train starting at Abergavenny going to Paddington and arriving at a convenient time for working at a client. There were super off peak tickets available from Abergavenny, but not from Hereford. One particular train manager had me met at Paddington and questioned because he claimed my ticket wasn't valid, even though I had printed all the itinerary information to carry with me and showed it to him. After having over half an hour wasted at Paddington I was told my ticket was ok and I could go. No apology given.
Whenever he was on that train he would say the ticket should be invalid because I was playing the system. He would check my ticket several times on the journey. He sometimes would claim I had got on at Hereford and needed to pay extra.

I have found most of the FGW train managers to be ok, even with the split tickets I sometimes use. Sometimes being told I don't have to get off at Swindon, just stay on the train, because the train doesn't stop at Didcot and I'm splitting there.

 

[yorkie]

I have to agree with Flamingo. How can one person have such bad luck? There must be loads of other people using trains as often as RJ does and not having problems on what seems to be a daily basis. RJ you should play the lottery because with your luck I reckon you'd win

I disagree. There are other people who use tickets that are valid, but obscure, like RJ uses, and they do have problems. I can think of one forum member in particular who is older, who is always 'let off', and another forum member who is a similar age to RJ, and has encountered similar treatment to RJ. So age and other factors relating to appearance are noticeably having an effect.

I've witnessed FGW RPIs falsely claiming a passenger had a gun (as that's the only way they could get BTP to come) and all sorts of tactics, another one by FGW RPIs was to take a permit to travel off a group, deal with someone else, get off the train and swap with an RPI who goes straight to the group asking to see their ticket. Fortunately an off-duty Virgin TM was on hand as a witness.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and unfortunately the byelaws can be enforced by people who don't have a clue what they're doing.

Indeed.

If using an obscure ticket, it's amazing but true, that some people will reject it purely because they don't like it. Lines such as "I don't care what the Routeing Guide says" or "this is my train" are rolled out time and time again. The vast majority goes unreported as most people do not want to go public on their disputes, many of the disputes I become aware of via PM or at forum meals/events/fares workshops.

If I acted in a similar way at work, and ignored/refused to look up the actual rules, I would expect dismissal.

 

[maniacmartin]

The lottery wouldn't decide they don't like your ticket if you win, and make you buy another.

I have witnessed staff making their own rules on tickets, and most times I attempt to buy a ticket I'm not sold the ticket I want. FGW even proudly aired such an example recent on Channel 5. If such a glaring example is overlooked and broadcast by the company, then think of all the other instances of fictional rules that never get aired.

Only a small proportion of passengers actually know much about ticketting, and then most people that I know will accept a PF or buy a new ticket and then appeal it later even if they know they are right, whereas RJ is more assertive. Those who do get in disputes also don't all post them publicly on the forum.

 

[sheff1]

Honestly those scans utterly beggar belief. The 'valid but not acceptable to me' one in particular. Who the hell do they think they are!?

It would beggar belief ... except for the fact that this is EMT.

A number of their employees think their job is not to abide by/enforce the NRCoC but to make up their own rules and then inconvenience, or even harass, passengers based on those made up rules.

Anecdotal evidence suggests this approach is encouraged by the company ..... that similar things have been reported about SWT, which is under the same ownership, only adds weight to this view.

Only a small proportion of passengers actually know much about ticketting, and then most people that I know will accept a PF or buy a new ticket and then appeal it later even if they know they are right, whereas RJ is more assertive.

I would not buy a new ticket if the one I had was valid. To date, however, I have always been 'let off this time' execpt for one occasion where the barrier attendant said he would call the police. I welcomed this and said I looked forward to discussing the matter with them. I was informed by an independant witness that said attendant was seemingly chatting to a wife/girlfriend when he moved off to make the call - I never found out, as my train arrived and I boarded without hinderance

 

[jon0844]

The lottery wouldn't decide they don't like your ticket if you win, and make you buy another.

It's also unfortunate that the National Lottery doesn't allow split ticketing.

I've worked out that I'd be significantly better off if I was able to combine numbers from different tickets...

 

[Flamingo]

It's also unfortunate that the National Lottery doesn't allow split ticketing.

I've worked out that I'd be significantly better off if I was able to combine numbers from different tickets...

Gets my vote for post of the day

 

[RJ]

The nature of internet forums is such that any reader only ever gets to read one side of the alleged dispute.

Should I start adding CCTV extracts and more ticket inspector's reports to my posts?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The nature of internet forums is such that any reader only ever gets to read one side of the alleged dispute.

Should I start adding CCTV extracts and more ticket inspector's reports to my posts?

 

[telstarbox]

What bothers me is that for every instance where RJ remains polite but gets hassle for using valid, if obscure tickets, there will be 10 instances on the network where fare evaders are rude or aggressive and get away with it because staff don't want the risk of violence.

Also, would it be correct to assume that the delay minutes in the incident on HS1 would be more than the price of the ticket the OBM wanted you to buy?

 

[Fare-Cop]

Should I start adding CCTV extracts and more ticket inspector's reports to my posts?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Should I start adding CCTV extracts and more ticket inspector's reports to my posts?

Not at all, my only remark concerning your posts and this forum RJ, is that it amazes me how often any subject discussed on here very quickly turns into a discussion of RJs experiences.

I accept, and I am sure that you must too, that you do appear to have a great many more experiences of negative issues involving revenue staff than most.

This thread started with a general question about 'reasonable force' and given the many millions of passenger journey's annually, my long experience of working in this environment and monitoring such matters does suggest to me, the reality is that unreasonable actions of this nature do seem to be a pretty rare occurrence.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This thread started with a general question about 'reasonable force' and given the many millions of passenger journey's annually, my long experience of working in this environment and monitoring such matters does suggest to me, the reality is that unreasonable actions of this nature do seem to be a pretty rare occurrence.

What a well-phrased and concise comment upon this current thread from a forum member with many years of working in and monitoring such rail travel industry matters

Plus a reminder as to the wording of the thread title.

 

[RJ]

Not at all, my only remark concerning your posts and this forum RJ, is that it amazes me how often any subject discussed on here very quickly turns into a discussion of RJs experiences.

I accept, and I am sure that you must too, that you do appear to have a great many more experiences of negative issues involving revenue staff than most.

This thread started with a general question about 'reasonable force' and given the many millions of passenger journey's annually, my long experience of working in this environment and monitoring such matters does suggest to me, the reality is that unreasonable actions of this nature do seem to be a pretty rare occurrence.

Me too and I did request that this did not happen in post 33.

The only point I was trying to make was that according to the BTP, reasonable force is whatever force it takes to remove a person from the railway - and certain rubbish/fabricated excuses can be used to justify having a reasonable suspicion for doing so.

Furthermore, some TOCs will enforce this to the full extent and wholly support their staff in doing so. Regardless of the paucity of (publicly reported) cases, it can happen, which is what the OP should work with.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Me too and I did request that this did not happen in post 33.

Yes, I did notice post 33, but I also noted that it was you who expanded the debate to consider your personal experiences in posts 51, 56 and 59.

I have made the only comments that I intend to make on the subject of the original post.

I had also noted that your post 71 includes your personal interpretation in relation to what may be considered 'rubbish', which I agree, is just as valid as anyone else's opinion until tested by a Court.

 

[jb]

This thread started with a general question about 'reasonable force' and given the many millions of passenger journey's annually, my long experience of working in this environment and monitoring such matters does suggest to me, the reality is that unreasonable actions of this nature do seem to be a pretty rare occurrence.

If it wasn't for rare occurrences there wouldn't be a forum - most people actually do go about their business on the railway with few problems. This at least has the feature of being an actual rare occurrence, as opposed to the dreamed-up ones that often end up being discussed.

 

[Fare-Cop]

If it wasn't for rare occurrences there wouldn't be a forum - most people actually do go about their business on the railway with few problems. This at least has the feature of being an actual rare occurrence, as opposed to the dreamed-up ones that often end up being discussed.

Absolutely agree, I would never suggest that such claims are non-existent, but they are very rare in the scheme of things and I do think the topic raised by the OP does have value in helping others to understand what the legal position actually is.

I think that was the gist of the OPs question as reproduced below

I came across the following Parliamentary document
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmtran/84/8406.htm

It says that Revenue protection staff may use reasonable force to remove someone that refuses to give their name / address.

From reading the comments on the forum, I was under the impression that only BTP / PCSO could use force to remove someone.

Does anyone know where I could obtain the full legislation for the legal duties of RPIs/ RPOs?


Thanks