Harrasment

[railuserupset]

Back story

3 months or so ago I tried to purchase a week ticket by my bank card, the card would not work on the machines and I had a very angry ticket inspector shouting at me so hard that I left the train one stop early, she actually reduced me to tears. Before I got off the train. I offered to pay by cash but I was told that I was "obviously" trying to "get away with not paying my ticket" and my cash was never taken. She asked for my details, shoved a piece of scrap paper in front of me and I wrote down a fake name and an old address on it, I was STILL TRYING to get her to take my cash instead but she refused it.

Today
I got the train. Purchased my week ticket successfully (with cash) the same ticket inspector as before took my money and gave me my ticket.
Five minutes later she came back and demanded more ID from me and wanted my ticket back, I refused.
The ticket inspector got the conductor and they stood there saying I was "guilty" that I was a "known ticket dodger" at this point I produced almost six months worth of weekly paid for tickets I had purchased at other points.
I was told I was going to be taken to court, also that I had already been to court and that I was guilty (none of this is true)


My question is, basically - Why did this happen?
I bought my week ticket, I have it with me today. She gave me the week ticket yet im being treated like this because seemingly their card machines do not like my Co-Op bank card.
Am I in the wrong here at all? Is there anything I can do?
I am dreading the train back home from work tonight.


Thank you

 

[yorkie]

1) I don't know. There are some rogue inspectors who act in this sort of manner, but it's very rare. It is more common that the passenger is trying a scam and not admitting this. I have no idea of the details or who is right and who is wrong, so I keep an open mind.
2) Providing there was no ticket office at your origin, and your bank card was a valid payment method, then I do not see how you have done anything wrong. That said, if your bank payment card is an "offline only" card then that is a can of worms, and I will leave that to the payment experts to discuss (but it has all been discussed before in previous threads if you do a search).
3) Possibly, but without knowing more details I can't really say. Send me a PM if you like

 

[island]

Is it potentially the case that between the time of the two incidents, it was discovered that the details you had given were fraudulent, thereby engendering anger when the same inspector discovered you again? Or in the alternative, that they brought a successful prosecution against the fictitious person and therefore she had reason to believe you had in fact been convicted?

 

[railuserupset]

Is it potentially the case that between the time of the two incidents, it was discovered that the details you had given were fraudulent, thereby engendering anger when the same inspector discovered you again?

Perhaps but I bought a ticket and I was not "dodging a train fair" This however is the only thing I can think of.

 

[6Gman]

Perhaps but I bought a ticket and I was not "dodging a train fair" This however is the only thing I can think of.

Yes, but you provided a false name which is itself an offence.

 

[maniacmartin]

I think we really need to know whether the origin station has ticket purchasing opportunities (a ticket office or ticket vending machine), or whether on the train is the first opportunity to buy.

By my reading of the Regulation of Railway Act, there is no requirement to offer a name and address if it is the first opportunity to buy and you are trying to pay for the ticket with cash.

A large proportion of Co-op debit cards are online-only. You can read all about them here.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I agree, if there was genuinely no previous opportunity to buy and no attempt to avoid payment was evident, then offering cash for the full fare at the first opportunity ought to have been accepted.

However, having not actually paid for whatever reason, having then provided a false name and address and ultimately having left the railway without having paid the fare for the journey that was made, might well result in a prosecution if the alleged offender is correctly identified, reported and a Summons issued within 6 months of that offence.

As Yorkie says, keeping an open mind about what actually occurred is probably a good idea and that is not to suggest that the OP has been misleading, it is simply to recognise that we always only get the story reported from one perspective.

 

[railuserupset]

I agree, if there was genuinely no previous opportunity to buy and no attempt to avoid payment was evident, then offering cash for the full fare at the first opportunity ought to have been accepted.

However, having not actually paid for whatever reason, having then provided a false name and address and ultimately having left the railway without having paid the fare for the journey that was made, might well result in a prosecution if the alleged offender is correctly identified, reported and a Summons issued within 6 months of that offence.

As Yorkie says, keeping an open mind about what actually occurred is probably a good idea and that is not to suggest that the OP has been misleading, it is simply to recognise that we always only get the story reported from one perspective.

Hi.
I did offer cash after the first instance of my card not working but I was told that I was intentionally and obviously avoiding having to pay. The inspector would not take my cash.
I havr had to get the earlier train today in an attempt to avoid this inspector and I was panicked about having to get the train this morning even though i have a week pass on me which I purchased to replace the old week pass.
I have false details as i was not willing to accept a penalty when I had literally tried to give the inspector cash for a single ticket in the first instance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think we really need to know whether the origin station has ticket purchasing opportunities (a ticket office or ticket vending machine), or whether on the train is the first opportunity to buy.

By my reading of the Regulation of Railway Act, there is no requirement to offer a name and address if it is the first opportunity to buy and you are trying to pay for the ticket with cash.

A large proportion of Co-op debit cards are online-only. You can read all about them here.

The station I leave from says on a sign...Please purchase a ticket at the nearest available pay point or from an inspector on a train...or words to that affect. There is one machine over the other side of the station but not on the side I get on at. Plus it wasn't working on that particular day.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, but you provided a false name which is itself an offence.

I attempted to pay for a single ticket using cash after my card declined on a week ticket purchase. I was not willing to accept a penalty when I tried to pay with cash. The inspector would not take my cash for a single ticket.

 

[ian959]

I attempted to pay for a single ticket using cash after my card declined on a week ticket purchase. I was not willing to accept a penalty when I tried to pay with cash. The inspector would not take my cash for a single ticket.

Unfortunately two wrongs don't make a right - whilst I can offer no good reason why your offer to pay cash for a single journey was not accepted, giving a false name and address has to some extent confirmed that you may have been trying to avoid a fare and that has inevitably led you into more issues.

Notwithstanding the location of the ticket machine, it would appear that you have failed to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity and then attempted to use a method of payment that has been declined for whatever reason (probably because it is on online card only) so offering up cash on the third attempt does not exactly help things either. Technically you may well be in the wrong but at this stage there is nothing to be done unless the matter does proceed to further action by the TOC. If you genuinely believe that you have been harassed then you should complain to the TOC at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Waldgrun]

railuserupset please can you provide some answers to a few small questions?

1). Did the station you boarded at have an open ticket office when you started your Journey?

2). Had you been able to obtain tickets before on trains using the same card?

3). How did you know that the ticket vending machine was not in service?

Also you may have reasons in not identifying where you travelled from, but the Station name may help, perhaps you could pass that information to one of the moderators, who should be able to confirm details.

 

[reb0118]

Where facilities exist the passenger must (should) purchase beforehand. This is regardless of whether he has to cross over to the other side. The usual caveats apply to elderly/disabled/those with small children &c..

That said it is the custom and practice with some TOCs to allow purchase on board (albeit at the full undiscounted fare in some cases). If payment is offered with a debit card and the said debit card declines the transaction then an alternative form of payment should be requested. If this alternative form of payment (be it another card or cash) is successful then that is the matter closed.

If there is no alternative form of payment forthcoming then a different approach will be required - either attempting to obtain an authorisation number from a helpline or reporting the passenger for being unable to pay their fare.

In the above case the OP states that he offered cash so IMO I do not know why that was not accepted - the failure of a card to process is not in of itself a failure to pay if an alternative method is available.

It is not the railway's job to criminalise passengers (a significant minority seem to manage to do so all on their own) and if you can take payment for a fare then do so - a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush - simples!

If the case is as the OP states then a complaint would IMO be justified.

 

[Flamingo]

The one thing that I find very strange about the OP's story is why staff refused to sell a ticket for cash. (I mean, that's what we do, walk through trains refusing to sell tickets!).

I am taking the story with a pinch of salt...

 

[bb21]

That said it is the custom and practice with some TOCs to allow purchase on board (albeit at the full undiscounted fare in some cases). If payment is offered with a debit card and the said debit card declines the transaction then an alternative form of payment should be requested. If this alternative form of payment (be it another card or cash) is successful then that is the matter closed.

...

In the above case the OP states that he offered cash so IMO I do not know why that was not accepted - the failure of a card to process is not in of itself a failure to pay if an alternative method is available.

That is also what I find very strange with this encounter. Perhaps there is more to this story. I am not apportioning blame, just stating my opinion.

 

[railuserupset]

That is also what I find very strange with this encounter. Perhaps there is more to this story. I am not apportioning blame, just stating my opinion.

Hi
There really isn't anything more. I am really just simply confused! my run ins to her previously consisted of unwillingness to swipe my card so I have to buy singles. Apart from her dislike for card payments everytime bar the one time I left the train (when she refused to take cash from me) I have bought a ticket.

Really do not know what else to say about it, what I've posted is factual, I'm confused and probably going to bus it to work from now on.

 

[Rich McLean]

It sounds OTT, but if you see a machine not working, take a photo of it on your phone for evidence. It may seem weird, but it can be useful evidence.

As others have said, giving false details, even if you haven't done anything wrong is a no-no and makes matters worse.

 

[bb21]

Hi
There really isn't anything more. I am really just simply confused! my run ins to her previously consisted of unwillingness to swipe my card so I have to buy singles. Apart from her dislike for card payments everytime bar the one time I left the train (when she refused to take cash from me) I have bought a ticket.

Really do not know what else to say about it, what I've posted is factual, I'm confused and probably going to bus it to work from now on.

Please don't take it the wrong way. I am not implying anything. Sometimes people forget little details, and other times some of us are just not great at recalling an event.

I am inclined to agree that it is not really acceptable behaviour as described, but that is not likely to excuse proving false details. If there is no further action taken by the train company, I would say just drop the matter for now.

If this happens again and you get any further hassle in the future, make a complaint. Whatever happened in the past is in the past and dealt with, you should not be hassled in the future for it.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Hi
There really isn't anything more. I am really just simply confused! my run ins to her previously consisted of unwillingness to swipe my card so I have to buy singles. Apart from her dislike for card payments everytime bar the one time I left the train (when she refused to take cash from me) I have bought a ticket.

Really do not know what else to say about it, what I've posted is factual, I'm confused and probably going to bus it to work from now on.

There really isn't any excuse for bad behaviour by anyone

The only thought I have from your post is the thought that if there is a facility to get a ticket before boarding at the station where you join, has she previously told you that you must get your ticket before boarding?

Whatever happened in the past is in the past and dealt with, you should not be hassled in the future for it.

I agree that no-one should be 'hassled', but if someone has failed to pay a fare, has been reported for that and it turns out that the details they have given were false and that person is encountered and identified again shortly after, it isn't true to say that the previous matter is in the past and should not be pursued.

If that were the case no crime would ever be investigated after it was committed.

 

[railuserupset]

It sounds OTT, but if you see a machine not working, take a photo of it on your phone for evidence. It may seem weird, but it can be useful evidence.

As others have said, giving false details, even if you haven't done anything wrong is a no-no and makes matters worse.

Absolutely, I do know that now and I suppose at the time I did too but I really didn't feel like I should have to have given them when I was offering an alternative method of payment.
In my mind at the time I believed I would get a fine of something like £50 of which I truly could not afford and there would be no actual evidence apart from words that I was trying to pay, I had nothing explained to me and I was just told to write the following on a scrap piece of paper...it was not an official book or anything (so coupled with my previous run-ins with her due to her dislike of card payments I was pretty suspicious of that-Is there supposed to be a book?)
She asked for:

My full name
Date of birth
My phone number
Place of work
Address and phone number of work

I did actually give my correct phone number because I did think I was willing to chat to someone about it but completely unwilling to receive a letter demanding money through the post with absolutely no explanation asked for on my behalf. I never received a phone call.
I am going down to the BTP today and I am going to tell them everything and get this fine (if there is one - sorted) I do not mind paying the actual fare so that I am up to date but to have to pay the fare and the penalty - I have a slight issue with that even though I know that legally I probably don't have a leg to stand on as I technically did not pay for the ticket regardless (ridiculously) of trying to.

 

[bb21]

I agree that no-one should be 'hassled', but if someone has failed to pay a fare, has been reported for that and it turns out that the details they have given were false and that person is encountered and identified again shortly after, it isn't true to say that the previous matter is in the past and should not be pursued.

If that were the case no crime would ever be investigated after it was committed.

I meant "hassled" as in the most literal sense.

If a possible criminal were identified later on, there must be better means of dealing with them than standing there accusing them verbally. That is unprofessional to say the least.

I am going down to the BTP today and I am going to tell them everything and get this fine (if there is one - sorted) I do not mind paying the actual fare so that I am up to date but to have to pay the fare and the penalty - I have a slight issue with that even though I know that legally I probably don't have a leg to stand on as I technically did not pay for the ticket regardless (ridiculously) of trying to.

What are you hoping to achieve by doing that?

The BTP would be at a complete loss why you have contacted them.

 

[railuserupset]

I meant "hassled" as in the most literal sense.

If a possible criminal were identified later on, there must be better means of dealing with them than standing there accusing them verbally. That is unprofessional to say the least.



What are you hoping to achieve by doing that?

The BTP would be at a complete loss why you have contacted them.

I really have zero knowledge on what to do here. I have no idea what the TOC is (having never had an issue before with anyone transport wise) and I decided that it would be best to go down an official "holding my hands up" route which mediates it in respect to getting off the train without payment being taken. I have nothing to hide.
I really don't think that I have truly explained to you how horrific this experience has been and I panic before getting ANY train now just in case this inspector is on it, this is a personal thing and I am like this with everything and that I accept is my own failings as a person.
If anyone has any advice that I could follow which they think would be better then I would absolutely take that on board.

 

[island]

The BTP won't have anything to do with this as it's (currently) a civil matter and may in future become a private prosecution. They won't have any records about it and will ask you to contact the train operating company involved.

 

[6Gman]

Absolutely, I do know that now and I suppose at the time I did too but I really didn't feel like I should have to have given them when I was offering an alternative method of payment.
In my mind at the time I believed I would get a fine of something like £50 of which I truly could not afford and there would be no actual evidence apart from words that I was trying to pay, I had nothing explained to me and I was just told to write the following on a scrap piece of paper...it was not an official book or anything (so coupled with my previous run-ins with her due to her dislike of card payments I was pretty suspicious of that-Is there supposed to be a book?)
She asked for:

My full name
Date of birth
My phone number
Place of work
Address and phone number of work

I did actually give my correct phone number because I did think I was willing to chat to someone about it but completely unwilling to receive a letter demanding money through the post with absolutely no explanation asked for on my behalf. I never received a phone call.
I am going down to the BTP today and I am going to tell them everything and get this fine (if there is one - sorted) I do not mind paying the actual fare so that I am up to date but to have to pay the fare and the penalty - I have a slight issue with that even though I know that legally I probably don't have a leg to stand on as I technically did not pay for the ticket regardless (ridiculously) of trying to.

Aren't the rights to information more restricted than that i.e. full name, current address and (possibly) date of birth? I certainly wouldn't give phone or employment details to railway staff.

 

[railuserupset]

Aren't the rights to information more restricted than that i.e. full name, current address and (possibly) date of birth? I certainly wouldn't give phone or employment details to railway staff.

I also had to write it all on a torn off scrap piece of paper, do you know if this is right? I also had to write my job title.

Thank you
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
TOC stands for Train Operating Company doesn't it? Well, I feel dim. Sorry, apologies.

 

[bb21]

I really have zero knowledge on what to do here. I have no idea what the TOC is (having never had an issue before with anyone transport wise) and I decided that it would be best to go down an official "holding my hands up" route which mediates it in respect to getting off the train without payment being taken. I have nothing to hide.
I really don't think that I have truly explained to you how horrific this experience has been and I panic before getting ANY train now just in case this inspector is on it, this is a personal thing and I am like this with everything and that I accept is my own failings as a person.
If anyone has any advice that I could follow which they think would be better then I would absolutely take that on board.

As island said above, there is nothing BTP can do, since they are not involved at this stage (yet if anything). Your best bet is just to stay put and get on with your life normally. There is nothing you can do from your part.

If there are further developments stemming from the first incident, you will be contacted by Northern (if at all).

Aren't the rights to information more restricted than that i.e. full name, current address and (possibly) date of birth? I certainly wouldn't give phone or employment details to railway staff.

Name and address only I believe, as stated in the RoRA - Section 5(1).

I also had to write it all on a torn off scrap piece of paper, do you know if this is right? I also had to write my job title.

Thank you

They can request whatever details they wish to obtain. Your obligation is limited to (correct) name and address only.

TOC stands for Train Operating Company doesn't it? Well, I feel dim. Sorry, apologies.

That's correct. A complete list is contained in Appendix C of the NRCoC.

(To the pedants on the forum, I am not getting into a discussion regarding the difference between a Train Operating Company and a train company as defined in the NRCoC. )

 

[railuserupset]

As island said above, there is nothing BTP can do, since they are not involved at this stage (yet if anything). Your best bet is just to stay put and get on with your life normally. There is nothing you can do from your part.

Thank you, I think I will do that then. In the mean time I am going to play out the rest of my week ticket and then switch to the bus, its just too much hassle to get to work with the panic that the train now gets me in to.

I did just want to give my name and address but I was spoken to really badly and had the paper thrown back at me and told "your job title, your work address AND your telephone number" I know I should not have given false details, least my real phone number is on there, though it is on the second part of the scrap pieces of paper so hopefully that hasn't been attached to all the other piece of data seemingly floating around on A6 torn off pieces of paper.


That's correct. A complete list is contained in Appendix C of the NRCoC.
Thank you, I spent ages googling this and then it just came to me!

Thank you to everyone that helped me, any further comments would be appreciated. I know I was in the wrong too.

 

[bb21]

I did just want to give my name and address but I was spoken to really badly and had the paper thrown back at me and told "your job title, your work address AND your telephone number"

You are entitled to decline this request.

Take it easy.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I meant "hassled" as in the most literal sense.

If a possible criminal were identified later on, there must be better means of dealing with them than standing there accusing them verbally. That is unprofessional to say the least.

Yes, I agree. It should be handled in a much more professional way than that described by the OP

For the OP, I suggest that the best thing that you can do at this stage is nothing. If you hear nothing from the TOC concerning that first matter then you should not remind them of the incident.

For the future, the best thing that you can do is to always ensure that you have a valid ticket in compliance with the Byelaws before boarding the train if there is a working facility at the station where you join.

If you show a valid ticket to that same inspector and she makes some unjustified accusation, or further issues arise, don't react, comply with any reasonable request and politely, but firmly ask for her name and depot details (if she is not wearing company identification), make a note and advise the inspector that you will be writing to the company about your dissatisfaction.

 

[stevefreestone]

If a ticket inspector attempted to penalty charge you despite your origin station being one with no ticket facilities, would that inspector be attempting fraud?
It seems that it's only one way with these chaps, that "the unwashed" are always the villains and the inspectors are clean and scot-free.

 

[34D]

Hi
There really isn't anything more. I am really just simply confused! my run ins to her previously consisted of unwillingness to swipe my card so I have to buy singles. Apart from her dislike for card payments everytime bar the one time I left the train (when she refused to take cash from me) I have bought a ticket.

Really do not know what else to say about it, what I've posted is factual, I'm confused and probably going to bus it to work from now on.

Credit/debit cards can be processed by either a swipe or a chip reader. Which was it?

Please can you PM one of the moderators (bb21 would be good) the details of the station and train. I'd like to mystery shop this one.

 

[SETCommuter]

I would write to the MD of the TOC and complain about this employee in the strongest possible terms. If she ever shouts again that you are a known fare dodger and have been prosecuted - if other people hear it then you have a possible case for slander against the employee.

Also, if any member of staff spoke to me in the manner you've described or tried to tarnish my name, they would be spitting their own teeth out very shortly afterwards.