Yes it's amazing that no-one ever thought of putting one in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And putting the tramway system in didn't cause any disruption either.
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Bradford: Would it benefit from having one central station?
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Yes it's amazing that no-one ever thought of putting one in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And putting the tramway system in didn't cause any disruption either.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I was not aware that any TOC had been instrumental in causing the construction of the said tramway system to which you refer to be part of their franchise operations. The former GMPTE and the successor TfGM was the body that was responsible for this project which should be viewed as rather more than just a link between two city railway systems. May I refer you to the Manchester Metrolink master thread that can be found on the Other Public Transport forum on the RailUK website
My last posting on the matter referred to a heavy rail connection link that will be facilitated by the Ordsall Chord project. There is no way that the Manchester Metrolink system could remotely be described as a heavy rail system.
BantamMenace
Member
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Very interesting and so far overlooked point, the carlisle to power stations east of leeds coal flows do cause more or less a freezing of all passenger movements as they snake across from the airedale line to the woodlesford line.
Routing these through bradford, halifax and onto to castleford or pontefract would add capacity at leeds instantaneously without any infrastructure change at leeds
Er, no they haven't. More like 40 years. There was a connection via Ardwick and Miles Platting that was there for 100+ years.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I should have referred to regular direct passenger train services using the route. You are quite correct, as when you leave Manchester Piccadilly heading towards the Ardwick junction, just before this on the left hand side, you will see the viaduct that had had its bridge connection removed that leads to what is now colloquially referred to as the "Manchester Raised Arterial Forest" that grows on top of the viaduct section of the said route.
tbtc
Veteran Member
- A handful of freight services being freed up from the throat of Leeds station?
- Meeting the demand to get from Keighley to Pudsey and from Ilkley to Halifax?
If you want to spend some money around Bradford then I'd suggest four tracking the line from Apperley Bridge in to Leeds plus electrification of the Calder Valley line would be as good a "wishlist" as any.
As has been explained on this thread, the three minute dwell time for services reversing at Bradford Interchange is no different to the dwell time you'd expect for "non reversing" services at a busy station where decent numbers get on and off (like a central Bradford station).
NorthernSpirit
Established Member
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LBA is an airport in the wrong place. It would be far better in the long-term to put money into an airfield next to existing railways, the most obvious being at Church Fenton, now that it's no longer required by the RAF. There are excellent existing connections to most parts of Yorkshire, the North East Midlands and the North East, including in the future, HS2.
There also major trunk roads, the M1, A1(M) and the A64 in close proximity.
The inhabitants of Church Fenton are up in arms about the impact of a long HS2 viaduct running through the village, the area might as well be clobbered by an international airport as well.
The Airport at Yeadon was originally were going to be built, on what is now Willow Valley golf course in Brighouse. Even then the closes railway station to it, Clifton Road, was already closed and the line torn up. To make matters worse the Armitage Road Viaduct (which came off at Anchor Pit Junction and crossed the A644) were demolised sometime in the 1980's. Had that line been kept open as far as Clifton Road, a shuttle service to Huddersfield or Leeds could have operated and the airport built and operated.
Waverley125
Member
So three minutes seems excessive, but whatever. Worst case scenario there's no change. You still get more intensive service Laisterdyke-Leeds, and more capacity on the Cvale (no crossing trains at Bradford south junction) and more journey opportunities (regional and inter-regional), and alleviate capacity problems at Leeds.
tbtc
Veteran Member
The regional and inter-regional journey opportunities discussed on this thread seem marginal at best (there probably are people wanting to travel from Ilkley to Halifax, but its certainly not a significant demand).
There would still be trains crossing over at a junction just south of the current Bradford Interchange station (the only difference is that it'd be a service heading north from Leeds to Carlisle service crossing the path of a service heading south from Ilkley to Halifax, with all of the "cross contamination" that this brings.
Most of the other suggestions don't require a through station in Bradford, they are just tacked on. If you want to improve the railways of Bradford then there needs to be more capacity towards Leeds (hence my suggestion of four tracking from Apperley Bridge) and there needs to be electrification of the Calder Valley route. Until those are on the agenda, there's no point in worrying about other plans.
Well, that's us told. I thought the discussion was about a central station for Bradford. The through facility is a bonus.
Why do you need more capacity towards Leeds?
There are already six trains/hour to Leeds why do you need more? Most of these are 4 car or less. If passenger numbers grow, simply add more carriages to existing trains.
Which is also the case on Airedale/Wharfedale into Leeds. The services are frequent enough but some need more carriages. There is no case for four tracking. Running peak hour trains of 4 cars or less would be ridiculed in the South.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Most stations on the "triangle" are not long enough to take anything more than a 4-car train, and can't easily be extended. Stations on the calder valley can take 5-car trains, and in the peaks do take 5-car trains.
I don't think the Aire Valley needs to have the four-track lines reinstated, even though it would be fairly easy to do after Kirkstall. The big bottleneck on the "triangle" remains the single track sections from Apperley Junction and Shipley to Guiseley, why that wasn't sorted out in the 90s I don't know.
Bradford doesn't suffer because it has two terminal stations, Bradford suffers because Beeching allowed it to become a branch line from Leeds. It doesn't matter if it is on a looped branch line or two separate terminal branch lines, it is still a branch line. I maintain the closure of the Low Moor to Mirfield line was the worst thing that happened to Bradford.
I don't think the Aire Valley needs to have the four-track lines reinstated, even though it would be fairly easy to do after Kirkstall. The big bottleneck on the "triangle" remains the single track sections from Apperley Junction and Shipley to Guiseley, why that wasn't sorted out in the 90s I don't know.
Bradford doesn't suffer because it has two terminal stations, Bradford suffers because Beeching allowed it to become a branch line from Leeds. It doesn't matter if it is on a looped branch line or two separate terminal branch lines, it is still a branch line. I maintain the closure of the Low Moor to Mirfield line was the worst thing that happened to Bradford.
Bradford doesn't need a new through station, it wouldn't change a thing and would cost an insane amount of money that no one is going to spend. What Bradford needed, along with a lot of other places, was for people to use what it had while it had them and for the council to make the most of it. Neither of those things happened and it is now a suburb of Leeds.
Waverley125
Member
This doesn't make sense. The rerouting of trains basically only affects Caldervale services.
Of current service diagrams:
2tph Leeds-Skipton via Shipley: no change
2tph Leeds-Bradford via Shipley: no change
1tph Leeds-Hellifield (Carlisle/Morecambe): no change
1tph Leeds-Blackpool: via Shipley
2tph Leeds-Manchester Victoria: via Shipley
so it's only the Cvale services that transfer, which seeing as they wouls use the additional fast lines between Shipley & Leeds would mean no extra conflict in Bradford.
Leeds-Bradford stoppers would either not cross over (terminating in the easternmost platforms at the new 'Bradford Central'), or would run on a Leeds-Bramley-Bradford-Shipley-Leeds loop diagram, which would still run through the above platforms, and reduce congestion at Bradford by not taking up the platform space for as long.
Also the inter-regional opportunities are pretty great. Liversedge, Cleckheaton & Heckmondwike get a train service back. Sheffield-Bradford direct becomes possible, as do Nottingham-Carlisle services (which have long been an ambition of South Yorks / East Midlands), and through running from the MML to Bradford and beyond.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
People did use the through trains, just like people used most of the Grand Central main line. Beeching saw duplication where there was none, thanks to some dubious accounting from BR in the 60s, and that was that.
Sorry mate, I get what you are saying, I was referring mainly to a new station being built with a link between Forster Square and Interchange and also the facilities available to the city as a whole. When I lived there for 4 years in the 90's the locals I knew would often go to Leeds to shop when in reality there wasn't much in Leeds apart from Harvey Nicks that there wasn't in Bradford. As such when I went back 10 years later Bradford had pretty much died.
It is very sad really since if you look at somewhere like Warrington it now has a Debenhams etc. and is hardly a thriving metropolis. Perhaps Bradford is a victim of being a bit too close to a major hub city. Either way, I don't think Bradford would benefit at all by allowing people to pass straight through it more easily.
quantinghome
Established Member
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The only advantage is that shipley gains direct access to Calder Valley services. However, Pudsey and Bramley lose theirs.
This is where I get confused by your post. There would be a conflicting move on the Southern approach to the new station between the Pudsey to Bradford service and Bradford to Halifax service. Or are you proposing complete segregation of the two routes i.e. 4 tracks approaching 'Bradford Central' from the South? That's a heck of a lot of engineering.
The first two proposals could work from Bradford Interchange. No new station needed.
Nottingham-Carlisle would need to run through Leeds to be viable. Take Leeds out of the equation, and the demand you are left with is passengers who currently change at Leeds from the Nottingham service to the Carlisle service. Bradford would doubtless generate some demand, but no way near as much as Leeds does at the moment. The problem with longer distance services 'beyond' Bradford is that there just isn't much beyond Bradford that you can get to without going through Leeds (local services up Wharfedale and Airedale excepted of course).
As a general observation, it appears that even where a main line splits to serve two nearby towns or cities so that services could reasonably be routed through either, one tends to be favoured over the other in terms of service and connections. Examples would include: Derby-Nottingham, Milton Keynes-Northampton. OK, can't think of any more. Maybe it's not such a good observation...
Darren R
Established Member
So we're looking at spending a few billion demolishing a swathe of Bradford city centre to improve operations around Leeds station - I think the long-suffering inhabitants of Bradford will need some convincing if that is the scheme's 'Unique Selling Point'!
IanD
Established Member
So we're looking at spending a few billion demolishing a swathe of Bradford city centre to improve operations around Leeds station - I think the long-suffering inhabitants of Bradford will need some convincing if that is the scheme's 'Unique Selling Point'!
Rewind to the start date of this thread and you'll see that a whole swathe of Bradford city centre had already been demolished (what seems like 10 years ago) for the alleged Westfield development on which, at that time, there was no sign of any progress.
Darren R
Established Member
I know - I walk through it regularly making my way between the two railway stations!
But it's going to need a larger swathe than that to build a railway line connecting the two stations. And I'm still not convinced that:
(a) there's a desperate problem in need of such drastic action, and
(b) that Bradford CrossRail wouldn't just hasten the city centre's decline still further. I just don't think this is the answer to Bradford's problems. (But then again, I'm not convinced that a bright, shiny new shopping centre is necessarily the answer either. :?)
To be fair though building a railway line through the middle of the city is still not exactly going to be a minor civil engineering project and will have very few benefits to the people of Bradford.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How is Bradford Interchange viewed by the numbers of people using this transport facility. Are there regular letters to local newspapers complaining that the Interchange is situated in an inconvenient situation ?
Bantamzen
Established Member
The Interchange's location has long been a matter of discussion in Bradford, mainly because it's always been considered to be cut off from the city centre by the often busy Hall Ings. And whilst some people have suggested moving it's location in the past, the question is where would have moved to? At the time that the redevelopment commenced back in 1999, the idea of a new shopping centre was only just forming & by the time it reopened in 2002 work was only just commencing to knock down buildings around Forster Square to make way for the then expected development. However a much simpler solution is available, by closing off traffic (execpt buses, taxis & access) on Hall Ings between the NCP car park next to the Hilton & Vicar Lane / George Street at the Leeds Road end (this would have to be moved further west when the Westfield development is complete to allow access to the new car park there) you would create a semi-pedestrianised area with only a small number of vehicles using it. It would however require some strict enforcement, as Bradford drivers do like to use the centre as a rat run sometimes.
Getting back however to the wider subject, I notice that there is a tendancy to dismiss Bradford as an annex to Leeds. I've already admitted that Bradford couldn't ever compete on the same level as Leeds, but that's not to say it shouldn't develop itself anyway. There is a very sizeable population that lies closer to Bradford than Leeds, so their is potential here to attract at least a proportion of this population should the facilities become available. Leeds has a problem, it's becoming a victim of it's own success. Because so many businesses have located there, and because of the redevelopment of the shopping arcades more people than ever are trying to ram their way in every day. So Leeds' road & rail services can easily become jam packed, and often do. When I used to commute from South Elmsall to Bradford via Leeds, I used to dread the return journey (my outward commute was always on the first service so wasn't too bad), especially if I was to hit the 17:19 Doncaster service as it was. And whenever I travel through Leeds at peak times these days, I've noted that it's even worse. All you need is a couple of cancellations, or an accident on the Armley Gyratory and the whole shooting match can grind to a halt. So there is scope for Bradford to pick up the slack, as well as offer something a little different in the evenings such as big name shows & live music for smaller events. Bradford used to have this in barrel loads (the old X33 from Sheffield to Bradford used to be packed on a Friday & Saturday evenings with people travelling into Bradford), and moves are afoot to start this up again. If the plans to bring back the live scene here, Bradford will become more attractive to decent people in the evenings as well as businesses. It would be far better than the hen / stag fest that infests Leeds city centre most weekends!
So if Bradford did have a single, central station with through links north & south it would benefit in the long term. It would allow for the possibility for routes from places currently not serving Bradford to call here, without having to change at Leeds and risk the peak crush. It would also offer better access to the Aire & Wharfe valleys, both of which have towns along their routes that are part of the Metropolitan area of Bradford (Shipley / Keighley / Ilkley). Bradford does try quite hard to promote it's culture & dramatic scenery around it's area, and again having better links in & through the city would help promote tourism much more. There is probably nothing worse than selling your area but having to advise potential visitors to change and a nearby rival city.
But as this vision is all but gone, the next best thing is to develop both terminals to allow for services from further afield, either as the start / end points for routes, or as a through station (this is really only suitable for the Interchange). Bradford needs to be plugged into the rest of the network directly. If this happens, and one or two other factors as mentioned above come together then the place has got a real chance of standing on it's own two feet.
JohnB57
Member
That would be the Warrington that's a short train journey from Manchester, Liverpool and Chester then?
Bradford is not a victim of what Leeds is. It's a victim of what Bradford isn't. If (when?) Bradford once again gets its political and commercial act together and becomes the sort of place people want to spend shopping and leisure time, they will come from the whole of the catchment area, including Leeds.
Bradford would absolutely benefit from a through railway line, but whether that would be proportionate to the cost of the project is conjectural. Mind you, the same applies to another, much larger rail project doesn't it?
I used to work up the hill from the town hall and used both Interchange and Forster square at various times. They both seemed fairly conveniently sited, but for me, Interchange was just that little bit more convenient.
Ha ha, that is a good point. Warrington is fairly close to a number of large cities. Warrington is doing well though, I think its proximity to the West Coast Mainline and the M62 & M6 helps.
tbtc
Veteran Member
TBH I'm struggling to understand whatever plans you have here, so apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but I'll make the following points:
Nottingham - Carlisle services are possible at the moment. In fact, there are direct services on a Sunday. If there was more demand for all-week services then Northern may try to run them. However, running from Nottingham to Carlisle omitting Leeds seems strange - you'd lose the Nottingham/Sheffield to Leeds market and the Leeds to the Dales/ Carlisle market. Bradford passengers aren't going to make up that difference.
Similarly, Sheffield to Bradford could be done nowadays. But I think its significant that the direct X33 bus faced a "death of a thousand cuts" so that the only direct way of getting between the cities is on a National Express coach via Leeds.
You want to run a railway to Liversedge, Cleckheaton & Heckmondwike? You don't need a central station in Bradford to achieve that.
Unless you build more capacity into Leeds station, you are going to be limited to around the same frequencies from Apperley Bridge/ Pudsey that there currently are. If you had a mega platformmed station in the middle of Bradford then you could switch some of these around, so that Halifax services ran via Shipley (or Skipton services ran via Pudsey, at a huge time penalty), but it wouldn't change the frequency at the Leeds end. You'd still have a flat crossing/ bottleneck just south of the current Interchange station (but your version would cause bigger problems because you'd be forcing through longer distance services which would mean that delays on the Shipley side would affect the Calder Valley side too).
There are much better things to spend money on.
JohnB57
Member
Sorry for not including the rest of your context, but this is part of the problem that Bradford has, touched on in a number of posts. It is treated as an extension of Leeds, so if you're setting up a north regional office, why waste the extra twenty minutes traveling to Bradford?
True. Very sad, but very true. I remember Bradford from my childhood as a safe, bustling, interesting city. But I'm afraid that now, there will always be better things to spend the money on.
tbtc
Veteran Member
I've tried to avoid getting into an argument about "the role of Bradford" (in a non-railway sense) on this thread.
It suffers from being next door to a bigger place, just like Sunderland/ Newcastle, just like Rotherham/ Sheffield.
But I suppose it depends on whether people see the railway's role as to represent/ match the demands of the Great British Public or whether people see the railway's role as to create demand (regenerate areas, encourage people to want to make certain journeys etc) - but that's probably a whole other thread's worth of discussion!
And perhaps Bradford could do with more direct services to places - but you'll just annoy people if you provide them instead of the services they use at the moment to get to Leeds - in the same way Calder Valley passengers were annoyed that though they still have 2 tph to Leeds, only 1 tph goes to Bradford any more (and even worse the new service was introduced before the old one was withdrawn).
That in itself doesn't help - I used to go to Bradford by train from Sowerby Bridge. It's only in the peak that the service is any better than 1tph now when for years it was 2tph (and even then there's gaps of more than 30 minutes). Although it takes longer to get to Leeds there's 2tph back.
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