Kings Cross PSB panel flashover

[SPADTrap]

Kings Cross PSB reporting a panel flashover affecting Hertford loop services between Stevenage and Gordon Hill, buses currently on order expected at GDH (Gordon Hill) at 2040, services currently trapped in sections and a signaler has been sent to operate the emergency panel at Hitchin.

 

[ryan125hst]

That doesn't sound good. Are things moving yet?
I didn't realise they had emergency panels. Does anyone know how many there are on the ECML.

This has made me wonder whether Network Rail are planning to have emergency panels across the network when the new signalling centres are in operation. Just think: a major power cut at York could take down the whole ECML. I hope they've got back up plans or there's going to be a lot of annoyed passengers in the future!

 

[SPADTrap]

I'm not totally sure. Mainline is running but still with 20-30 minute delays but I'm not able to log into our intranet for some reason and I'm off till Monday! Seems to be southbound a that are delayed though.

 

[Railsigns]

This has made me wonder whether Network Rail are planning to have emergency panels across the network when the new signalling centres are in operation.

They are not. Emergency panels are mostly associated with the signalling technology of the 1970s and 80s, which had remote relay interlockings linked to the signalling centre by remote control systems, usually Time Division Multiplex (TDM). If a remote control link fails, the affected interlocking can be operated locally from the emergency panel, where provided.

If, as is usually the case with modern computer-based systems, all the interlockings are located within the signalling centre building, emergency panels at remote locations are useless because if you lose the link to the signalling centre, you've lost the link to the interlocking as well.

 

[Class377/5]

This has made me wonder whether Network Rail are planning to have emergency panels across the network when the new signalling centres are in operation. Just think: a major power cut at York could take down the whole ECML. I hope they've got back up plans or there's going to be a lot of annoyed passengers in the future!

A power cut at York doesn't mean the ROCs would lose power.

I was in Three Bridges ROC this week when the local area lost complete power and the ROC kept going expect a few seconds of lighting reseting. Computers including what will be the first panel didn't experience any issues.

 

[Pilgrim]

They are not. Emergency panels are mostly associated with the signalling technology of the 1970s and 80s, which had remote relay interlockings linked to the signalling centre by remote control systems, usually Time Division Multiplex (TDM). If a remote control link fails, the affected interlocking can be operated locally from the emergency panel, where provided.

If, as is usually the case with modern computer-based systems, all the interlockings are located within the signalling centre building, emergency panels at remote locations are useless because if you lose the link to the signalling centre, you've lost the link to the interlocking as well.

Not all interlockings are in the signalling centre. Areas where relay rooms such as TVSC are linked up by a relay interface and in Cowlairs the interlocking a are linked to the IECC in Edinburgh by an FTN link.

Also all the signalling centres/ROCs are going to have back up generators and UPS. (Uninterruptible Power Supplies) these kick in as soon a it notices a drop.

 

[Nym]

Not all interlockings are in the signalling centre. Areas where relay rooms such as TVSC are linked up by a relay interface and in Cowlairs the interlocking a are linked to the IECC in Edinburgh by an FTN link.

Also all the signalling centres/ROCs are going to have back up generators and UPS. (Uninterruptible Power Supplies) these kick in as soon a it notices a drop.

Unless there's a failure between the UPS and the equipment?

 

[Railsigns]

Not all interlockings are in the signalling centre.

I know. That's why I wrote "usually".

 

[Pilgrim]

Unless there's a failure between the UPS and the equipment?

Which should register a fault to one of the box TOs to get it fixed. The likelihood of the power going down and the ups failing is minimal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know. That's why I wrote "usually".

Apologies. Wasn't intended as an attack. Just sharing what little knowledge I have.

 

[carriageline]

A few of the current IECCs (similar to a ROC, kinda) have gone down due to power failures recently, one of them was down to an UPS failure IIRC.

I think they are just hoping that they never fail

Some places have slave/remote panels. I think the kings cross slaves are very basic, and don't have things like Train Describer berths.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pilgrim]

A few of the current IECCs (similar to a ROC, kinda) have gone down due to power failures recently, one of them was down to an UPS failure IIRC.

I think they are just hoping that they never fail

Some places have slave/remote panels. I think the kings cross slaves are very basic, and don't have things like Train Describer berths.

But that's the one we have heard about. UPS are generally reliable and work but you only hear when one breaks.

 

[philjo]

Someone I know worked at a site where they had their own backup generators to supply the normal power load in case of mains failure. the came in so quickly that on one occasion no-one had noticed that there was a mains power outage until 7 hours later when the generators ran out of fuel....

 

[carriageline]

But that's the one we have heard about. UPS are generally reliable and work but you only hear when one breaks.

Of course, they probably cut in regularly without fault.

But as Nym said, what about when equipment fails between the UPS and the equipment it self? Which, as I understand it, is more regular ? Could be wrong of course


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Aictos]

One question, what buses? I was working and none appeared that I could see...

That said, when the ROCs come into service will the remote panels at say Hitchin be decommissioned or will they stay?

 

[1e10]

Not all interlockings are in the signalling centre. Areas where relay rooms such as TVSC are linked up by a relay interface and in Cowlairs the interlocking a are linked to the IECC in Edinburgh by an FTN link.

Also all the signalling centres/ROCs are going to have back up generators and UPS. (Uninterruptible Power Supplies) these kick in as soon a it notices a drop.

UPS systems seem to cause more trouble than it's worth. Always hearing of entire data centres going down either because the UPS has caused a fault or the UPS has failed to pickup in the event of a power cut.

Someone I know worked at a site where they had their own backup generators to supply the normal power load in case of mains failure. the came in so quickly that on one occasion no-one had noticed that there was a mains power outage until 7 hours later when the generators ran out of fuel....

Only 7 hours fuel? Would hope any site critical enough to warrant a generator would have atleast 24 hours worth of fuel, if not 7 days.

 

[Hyphen]

UPS systems seem to cause more trouble than it's worth. Always hearing of entire data centres going down either because the UPS has caused a fault or the UPS has failed to pickup in the event of a power cut.

???

Yes, but nobody reports on all the times UPSes do as they're told and protect the equipment until power is restored either from grid or a longer-lasting source such as generators (which aren't instant). I can assure you this number is significantly greater than the number of failures.

If we suddenly decided not to bother with them, I'm sure there would be a much higher number of reports of systems going down due to power cuts, brownouts, etc. The UPS industry is alive and well because they do work more often than they fail. If they failed more times than they worked, people wouldn't buy them.

At the sites I look after (we are a medical provider) we rely on our UPS equipment for providing power until the generators kick in. We only need them to supply power for 3-5 seconds, but we specify them to provide power for 1 hour. The only time this has ever been a problem was during one extended power outage - the generators had kicked in and had been running for 30 minutes. However, some clever sod had assumed mains power had been restored by now and decided to start up our MRI scanner, which the genny had not been specified to supply power to. Long story short, this (somehow) damaged the genny and we couldn't use it. We powered down our servers safely and then turned the UPS off until power was restored a few hours later.

All our critical medical equipment (and a fair bit of non-critical stuff) has inbuilt UPS/battery equipment.

 

[Pilgrim]

Someone I know worked at a site where they had their own backup generators to supply the normal power load in case of mains failure. the came in so quickly that on one occasion no-one had noticed that there was a mains power outage until 7 hours later when the generators ran out of fuel....

If it's the same story I heard it was a case of someone missed the low fuel alarm. It wasn't the case of no diesel it was it was low and wasn't filled up before it emptied.