Liverpool to Newcastle May 2014

[xtradj]

Hello does anyone have a draft timetable for this new service via Victoria?
I hear it will run from 6am to 7pm from lime street

With that in mind will the 8.22 pm to Newcastle still run via Warrington

 

[Phlip]

Hello does anyone have a draft timetable for this new service via Victoria?
I hear it will run from 6am to 7pm from lime street

With that in mind will the 8.22 pm to Newcastle still run via Warrington

These drafts were submitted to the ORR early last year:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-fkt-timetable-scotland.pdf
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-fkt-timetable-northroute-west.pdf
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-fkt-timetable-northroute-east.pdf

 

[xtradj]

Thank you

Fairly surprised manchester Piccadilly is losing a direct Newcastle service but obviously victoria covers that I guess now

 

[yorkie]

Thank you

Fairly surprised manchester Piccadilly is losing a direct Newcastle service but obviously victoria covers that I guess now

As the trains are going to be electric, they have to go the quicker route via Victoria.

It makes more sense for the Scarborough trains to go the slower, diesel route via Warrington & Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[swt_passenger]

As the trains are going to be electric, they have to go the quicker route via Victoria.

It makes more sense for the Scarborough trains to go the slower, diesel route via Warrington & Manchester Piccadilly.

The trains won't be electric for a few more years though.

This is more about speeding up a cross pennine route using 185s for now; or put another way making some initial tweaks to the service pattern that will only be fully completed after the TPE North electrification.

 

[Soyyo]

As a regular Liverpool Manchester traveller I am very pleased about this change. At last, a reasonably fast train to cover the thirty odd miles between these two lovely cities in thirty two minutes.

The Warrington route is so slow, with trains crawling between Liverpool almost to Hunts Cross. It took 20 minutes to cover this stretch last time I used it on New Years Day.

If you are going anywhere remotely Deansgate way in Manchester from Liverpool, it's often quicker on the stopper to MCV than one of the "fast" trains!

Coming in to Liverpool on the hourly TPE from Manchester, the train will almost always get stuck on red just outside Liverpool South Parkway, often for four or five minutes.

I have high hopes that this service will be just the start of ongoing improvements to the route.

Years ago NCL LIV went via Ashton, MCV and Chat Moss, I could never understand why they changed this to go through Piccadilly in the first place, and then over the years allowing MCV to become little more than a local station.

I am looking forward to having this route again, even though it looks as if they will be losing the Newcastle service at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[northwichcat]

The trains won't be electric for a few more years though.

This is more about speeding up a cross pennine route using 185s for now; or put another way making some initial tweaks to the service pattern that will only be fully completed after the TPE North electrification.

Indeed the Liverpool-Newcastle service will be operated by the 185s released off Scottish services and by truncating the existing Airport-Newcastle service at York. The Liverpool-Scarborough via Warrington service won't remain once Stalybridge-York is wired, with Scarborough-York set to be tagged on to the York-Blackpool service and Liverpool-Warrington-Sheffield set to be half-hourly.

 

[SeanG]

Victoria always used to be the station in Manchester for TransPennine services.
Indeed the fastest route from a Manchester station to Huddersfield is from Victoria - Ashton - Stalybridge - Huddersfield.
The TP services were transferred to Piccadilly in the 90s as it was seen that the city centre was shifting slightly in that station's direction (even though this has not been the case).
It is in fact slower from Picadilly, not helped by the slow speeed through Guide Bridge.

 

[transmanche]

Hello does anyone have a draft timetable for this new service via Victoria?
I hear it will run from 6am to 7pm from lime street

The new timetable is now showing up on Open Train Times (see sample times for 19 May 2014).

With that in mind will the 8.22 pm to Newcastle still run via Warrington

OTT currently shows the 20:22 as still running via Warrington and Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Victoria always used to be the station in Manchester for TransPennine services.
Indeed the fastest route from a Manchester station to Huddersfield is from Victoria - Ashton - Stalybridge - Huddersfield.
The TP services were transferred to Piccadilly in the 90s as it was seen that the city centre was shifting slightly in that station's direction (even though this has not been the case).
It is in fact slower from Picadilly, not helped by the slow speeed through Guide Bridge.

Actually, between 1884 and 1969 it was Exchange station for the fastest trans-Pennine services (LNWR via Standedge).
During this time Victoria only served the longer L&Y Calder Valley route.

Moving services to Piccadilly and the CLC route gave better connections to/from the south.
It also avoided the redevelopment of Victoria and the Chat Moss route - something now being reversed.
The Windsor Link also diverted many western services from Victoria to Piccadilly (and the Airport).

 

[Aictos]

Indeed the Liverpool-Newcastle service will be operated by the 185s released off Scottish services and by truncating the existing Airport-Newcastle service at York. The Liverpool-Scarborough via Warrington service won't remain once Stalybridge-York is wired, with Scarborough-York set to be tagged on to the York-Blackpool service and Liverpool-Warrington-Sheffield set to be half-hourly.

Regarding the York to Scarborough/York to Blackpool services, would there be any sense in running them as Blackpool to Scarborough via York as a though service rather then two separate services?

 

[northwichcat]

Regarding the York to Scarborough/York to Blackpool services, would there be any sense in running them as Blackpool to Scarborough via York as a though service rather then two separate services?

A York to Scarborough shuttle would mean Scarborough would no longer have a direct service to Leeds. If you were going from Skipton to Scarborough with a suitcase would you really want to have to change at both Leeds and York stations?

 

[Oscar]

Running as a through service ensures a direct connection between Scarborough and Leeds.

 

[Aictos]

A York to Scarborough shuttle would mean Scarborough would no longer have a direct service to Leeds. If you were going from Skipton to Scarborough with a suitcase would you really want to have to change at both Leeds and York stations?

You misread my post You posted Blackpool to York/York to Scarborough services which to me meant two separate services however my question was simply is it viable with the stock to just run it as a though service ie Blackpool to Scarborough via York or not?

If you did read my question carefully you would have noticed this...

 

[pdq]

Looks like Dewsbury loses all but a handful of Manchester airport trains: now either going to Liverpool or terminating at MAN. These are the Hull - MAN services now stopping additionally at Stalybridge (previously fast from HUD to MAN).

I thought the semi-fasts from Man Vic to HUD were going to be extended through to Leeds, picking up Mirfield, Batley, Dewsbury and Morley - clearly not. Is that an expectation for a future timetable change?

Looks like my BTL/MAN commute shifts by about 10 minutes in the morning, but the evening return options are awful:
leaving MAN 16:26 is OK - a quick change in HUD to arrive in BTL at 17:17, but the next one is 16:40, arriving at BTL at 17:44 (20 min wait at DEW) then 16:56, 30 mins wait at HUD, arriving 18:20.

Surely this can't be right? MAN to BTL is good at the moment. Roughly half-hourly with changes at DEW of around 8 minutes.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the semi-fasts from Man Vic to HUD were going to be extended through to Leeds, picking up Mirfield, Batley, Dewsbury and Morley - clearly not. Is that an expectation for a future timetable change?

There are no semi-fasts currently. The idea is a compromised solution to provide 6tph on North TPE but without having a Victoria-Huddersfield stopper getting in the way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You misread my post You posted Blackpool to York/York to Scarborough services which to me meant two separate services however my question was simply is it viable with the stock to just run it as a though service ie Blackpool to Scarborough via York or not?

If you did read my question carefully you would have noticed this...

You posted a strange question. I posted what is set to happen (it's mentioned in both the DfT HLOS and the Network Rail electrification RUS) and you asked if there's any sense in doing that. Or do you not think DfT can ever come up with a proposal that makes sense?

 

[transmanche]

The Liverpool-Scarborough via Warrington service won't remain once Stalybridge-York is wired, with Scarborough-York set to be tagged on to the York-Blackpool service

Regarding the York to Scarborough/York to Blackpool services, would there be any sense in running them as Blackpool to Scarborough via York as a though service rather then two separate services?

I read 'tagged on' as meaning exactly that: i.e. that Blackpool-Scarborough will be operated as one through service.

 

[IanXC]

I read 'tagged on' as meaning exactly that: i.e. that Blackpool-Scarborough will be operated as one through service.

I think the confusion here is that the York-Scarborough service will be tagged on to the York-Blackpool service, once it has been removed from the Liverpool-Scarborough service after electrification of the TP North core.

 

[anti-pacer]

I think the confusion here is that the York-Scarborough service will be tagged on to the York-Blackpool service, once it has been removed from the Liverpool-Scarborough service after electrification of the TP North core.

Didn't the York-Blackpool service used to start in Scarborough?

 

[Oscar]

Yes it did.

 

[Eagle]

Although that was back in ATN days, when Scarborough to Blackpool was part of the Transpennine Express brand.

 

[scarby]

A York to Scarborough shuttle would mean Scarborough would no longer have a direct service to Leeds. If you were going from Skipton to Scarborough with a suitcase would you really want to have to change at both Leeds and York stations?

No you wouldn't.

But for many many years the core service was Scarborough to York trains. In my experience the majority of passengers alight/depart at York. Then next you have Leeds and going direct beyond that it is very few passengers.

I would much rather see a Scarborough-York shuttle, with the payoff being trains every 30 instead of 60 minutes - thus vastly improving the core service but also for onward connections at the major junction of York. This would not require very much stock to operate - the journey time of c 50 minutes means it is possible for a unit to shuttle there and back inside 2 hours. Therfore you can run a half-hourly service with just 4 units.

 

[YorkshireBear]

In my experience there is significant Leeds- Malton/Scarborough requirement so the current option post electrification seems very sensible.

 

[IanXC]

In my experience there is significant Leeds- Malton/Scarborough requirement so the current option post electrification seems very sensible.

I agree - very many more of the passengers who board at Seamer (and are therefore buying onboard) are heading for Leeds than York. I would agree that the destination (or otherwise) beyond Leeds is of little consequence.

There is of course nothing to say that a half hourly service could not be provided by some combination of 1tph as a through service to Leeds and/or beyond, IEP bimode to London and a York-Scarborough shuttle.

 

[tbtc]

I agree - very many more of the passengers who board at Seamer (and are therefore buying onboard) are heading for Leeds than York. I would agree that the destination (or otherwise) beyond Leeds is of little consequence.

There is of course nothing to say that a half hourly service could not be provided by some combination of 1tph as a through service to Leeds and/or beyond, IEP bimode to London and a York-Scarborough shuttle.

Agreed.

Scaborough to York is a significant market.
Scarborough to Leeds is a significant market.

West of Leeds, it matters a lot less. Could be from Blackpool, could be from Huddersfield (via Bradford), could be from the Calder Valley line.

But in these kind of arguments, we inevitable get hamstrung by arguments about the ending of some current link like Warrington to Malton or Manchester Airport to Yarm (which are pretty insignificant).

 

[transmanche]

On a related note, I see that the 04:25 Manchester Airport to Newcastle and the 21:55 Newcastle to Manchester Airport both go via Manchester Victoria without stopping - reversing at Salford Crescent (with the 04:25 also reversing at Huddersfield) en route.

 

[Anvil1984]

Possibly to avoid having to pay for dispatch staff at man Vic at that time in the morning especially if they go the "normal route" via Guide Bridge for any reason

 

[Geeves]

There are already a number of TPE trains that come through Vic none-stop with passengers in the early hours for route retention I guess?

Also the despatch staff are here 24 hours a day with 2 on nights so stopping (and they sometimes have in the past) is not an issue.

 

[northwichcat]

No you wouldn't.

Explain. What direct services are there from Skipton to York? If there are none then how you could do Skipton-Scarborough without 2 changes which is what I said you would have to do if there was no direct Leeds-Scarborough train?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But in these kind of arguments, we inevitable get hamstrung by arguments about the ending of some current link like Warrington to Malton or Manchester Airport to Yarm (which are pretty insignificant).

The ending of the Warrington-West/North Yorkshire direct service will likely coincide with enhancing the Warrington-Sheffield direct service so some people will get will benefit and other's will lose out.

 

[Eagle]

The ending of the Warrington-West/North Yorkshire direct service will likely coincide with enhancing the Warrington-Sheffield direct service so some people will get will benefit and other's will lose out.

And also there may end up being new services from Bank Quay that compensate if the additional Chester to Manchester Victoria service is introduced and it continues somewhere to the east (such as the Calder Valley, as is often mentioned).