First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

The real investment has been in new vehicles and the vast majority of these have gone to those places that DO give the best returns such as Glasgow, Aberdeen, Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Hampshire and Bristol/Bath. Only a few others (6 to 10 apiece) have gone to Plymouth, Gala and Weymouth plus the X1 in FEC in 2 years.

Those places have also seen a lot of repaints, network and fare revisions.

So what makes First believe Somerset has a chance of improving? Or is this more like a pilot project where First are trying to see if this idea can get returns and thus roll it out to other parts of the empire?

This is what I'm wondering, I just wish to fully understand what First overall plan for growth is for the down at the heal areas.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So what makes First believe Somerset has a chance of improving? Or is this more like a pilot project where First are trying to see if this idea can get returns and thus roll it out to other parts of the empire?

This is what I'm wondering, I just wish to fully understand what First overall plan for growth is for the down at the heal areas.

Basically, Alex Carter was recruited on a consultancy basis and as part of that, had a brief to turn around the ops that were formerly FDC and Taunton & Bridgwater.

As part of the deal, he was given latitude to do things his way. As First in Sedgemoor and Taunton Deane has a terrible reputation and a lot of competition, he probably thought it best to abandon the old image. Whether he does the same for Cornwall (as rumoured) or its taken elsewhere, no one knows yet (outside the First hierarchy).

However, as others can show, there is money to be made in unfashionable places if you do things correctly. TOT said the old religion doesn't work so why not try something else?

Ps missed Cymru off the list of First firms who've also had fleet upgrades!

 

[Qwerty133]

In fairness, the Enviro400s do look quite decent from the outside having gone through refurbs. They don't yet have local names applied, just in a generic First Bus livery. With no prospect of any new bus, they are not a bad compromise I would imagine. Many of the B7TLs have been struggling for a while so it is still a positive step nevertheless.

Arriva's recent London cascades (DAF/ALX400 and B7TL) are actually older than the majority of the DAF/Lowlanders already in the fleet (and have been since new) which are of a similar age to First's B7TL's which are presumably the ones being withdrawn (especially the few W-reg ones). I can't say how they are mechanically, but the interiors leave a lot to be desired. Some of them have recently been refurbished for the 84/85/86/87 so look better, but they are still 12-year old buses (at least). As with First's B7TLs, the Lowlanders are also starting to show their age.

Also all the buses that they operate under the 'Hinckley bus' name, including R reg ALX100s, Optare excels which break down nearly every day they manage to get them on the road and old solos. They may have only been on charge for a few months but they've had enough time to get rid of the 3 decent buses so it's fair to include them.
As for them ALX400s even my Nana hates them. The reliability of the lowlanders seem poor and at one point last year I saw a fleet support van at the same place at the same time 2 weeks In a row (outside the chip shop in Narborough).

 

[overthewater]

However, as others can show, there is money to be made in unfashionable places if you do things correctly. TOT said the old religion doesn't work so why not try something else?

Of course that only seems to apply to certain areas. But as you say not everywhere can come first and everyone will have to wait until its their turn

What has happened in Somerset is something Giles ruled out a while back. I do wish the new operation well I hope it does succeed!

 

[freetoview33]

" We're looking to do everything better, to up our game" as taken from the Buses of Somerset website.

 

[Robertj21a]

So what makes First believe Somerset has a chance of improving? Or is this more like a pilot project where First are trying to see if this idea can get returns and thus roll it out to other parts of the empire?

This is what I'm wondering, I just wish to fully understand what First overall plan for growth is for the down at the heal areas.

I think your reference to it being a 'pilot' scheme is close to the mark. Otherwise it might have been closing down fairly soon. It really won't have cost very much hard cash (relative to First Group as a whole) to have made this effort and it will be interesting to see how it evolves.

Robert

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think your reference to it being a 'pilot' scheme is close to the mark. Otherwise it might have been closing down fairly soon. It really won't have cost very much hard cash (relative to First Group as a whole) to have made this effort and it will be interesting to see how it evolves.

Robert

I'm not so certain that this can be classed as a pilot scheme. In truth, they've brought in Alex Carter and he's been given the space (and a limited amount of cash) to try something different. Apart from the ongoing rumours that something might be planned for Cornwall (not heard anything substantiated though), I'm not certain that anywhere else might be due a complete rebrand.

However, away from that, there aren't that many places that HAVEN'T experienced some major changes. Probably First Midlands (e.g. Leicester, Potteries, Wyvern) being the most obvious and that's probably because they've been waiting for Nigel Eggleton to move from Transdev. That, and FSE!

You're right about not spending huge amounts in hard cash. In truth, apart from the investment in the new image (design and development) and some new signage, what have they actually spent on things that they wouldn't normally expect to incur? Drivers will get replacement uniform, leaflets would be printed. The fleet has gained 6 ten year old Tridents ex London, plus three V reg Presidents (age hidden by dateless plates) from Barnstaple via Plymouth as well as repainting the only new kit (E200s) they've had in the last 5 years.

Having seen S and T reg Darts competing against Webberbus Versas and Solos on cross Somerset routes, Alex has his work cut out!

 

[oldman]

Can anyone say whether they are spending money on the interiors of the repainted buses? Hopefully yes, but it does add to the cost.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Can anyone say whether they are spending money on the interiors of the repainted buses? Hopefully yes, but it does add to the cost.

The ex London 53 ones have been refurbed but don't think the E200s have been. Not certain about the former Barnstaple Tridents though

 

[GaryMcEwan]

This might have all ready been covered in previous posts, but I'll ask anyway.

Noticed something interesting when I got off the bus this afternoon (37194), the wee plaque inside the drivers cab with the Reg No. and Fleet Number, had a different Reg No. from what is actually on the bus.

On the plaque it has SF56NEO, but yet the reg plate says SF07FEH...

Anyone know on why it has a newer reg plate from whats on the wee plaque?

 

[overthewater]

An interesting post about the Somerset
http://busbugle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/sneak-peak-at-somerset.html

IE the fares....

What's happening in Somerset? First have rebranded their network centred on Taunton as The Buses Of Somerset. There's a new green livery and a website with a network map that uses the same styling as the Go Ahead group.

It doesn't look like part of First, so is it being sold?

A look at the fares page, shows a network day ticket of £10...



Before, passengers on this network could use a FirstDay South West at just £7...

... not only cheaper, but valid across a much, much wider area.

This will mean fewer tourists from surrounding areas connecting with these routes to visit central Somerset. Of course, anyone 'lucky' enough to be on this new network is now cut off from the wider First network unless they pay again at the new boundary, be that in Weston-super-Mare, Yeovil or Wells.

After the chaos of competition following deregulation, we've had the benefits of consolidation on wide networks and those wide networks are now seemingly being dismantled (by First at least) from within to make sure that they are of use to as tight a demographic as possible. Whatever happened to buses working in the interests of the wider economy, for all?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

An interesting post about the Somerset
http://busbugle.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/sneak-peak-at-somerset.html

IE the fares....

To be honest, the £7 Day Ticket was scandalously cheap. The equivalent Stagecoach Devon ticket (representing a smaller area) was £7.50. Still £10 is a bit of hike.

That said, there is a max return fare across the network of £7.50 viz "A to B & back never more than £7.50

Our single (one-way) and return (there and back) fares are good value if you’re simply travelling between two points. They start at £1 and rise according to how far you travel. Pay the driver in cash.

However, we have a maximum return fare of £7.50, even if that means you having to change buses to reach your destination. Just tell the driver where you’re going when you get on the bus."

Basically, that covers the vast majority of passengers. As pensioners have their ENCTS, the demographic most likely to be affected (making multiple non-linear journeys) are bus enthusiasts! Shame, as I did like to clock up a few miles myself

Meanwhile, Transdev Yorkshire Coastliner is a whopping £15!

ps Love the conspiracy theory bit - preparation for a sell off.... Yeah, and the Southern Vectis style livery must be a clincher.....mustn't it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This might have all ready been covered in previous posts, but I'll ask anyway.

Noticed something interesting when I got off the bus this afternoon (37194), the wee plaque inside the drivers cab with the Reg No. and Fleet Number, had a different Reg No. from what is actually on the bus.

On the plaque it has SF56NEO, but yet the reg plate says SF07FEH...

Anyone know on why it has a newer reg plate from whats on the wee plaque?

Wonder if the plaque was made and fitted, then a late cancellation on the reg plate (original voided) and a new one allocated as it was late into service?

 

[starrymarkb]

IIRC Cornwall has now been split out of the FirstDay SW too, It's now £10 for a day ticket on First Bus in Cornwall, the same price as a Ride Cornwall which includes the train & Western Greyhound as well.

 

[Blindtraveler]

well thats a no brainer then!0hope the ride cornwall literature is0distributed better in the touristy places

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

IIRC Cornwall has now been split out of the FirstDay SW too, It's now £10 for a day ticket on First Bus in Cornwall, the same price as a Ride Cornwall which includes the train & Western Greyhound as well.

Sadly, they've not updated the website so whilst the new £10 Cornwall ticket is there, so is the cheaper old SW Day at £7.60....

In fact, the website is a mess for FDC, with Devon having the £7.40 day ticket that excludes the following:

• X53 Exeter - Weymouth - Poole
• 30/30A Taunton - Chard - Axminster
• 92/92A Taunton - Wellington - Exeter
• 398 Minehead - Bampton - Tiverton

Now the 92 is actually the 22 and was chopped back to Tiverton a few years ago. Whilst the 398 was lost on tender......how long ago??

 

[swifty]

The FDSW is still accepted by FDC and BoS, you just can't buy an FDSW on their vehicles anymore. Whether that's the case in practice though is another matter!

 

[cainebj]

And further news for First today, the OFT has cleared the takeover of Finglands. Full text will be available shortly.
http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/mergers/decisions/2014/first-manchester#.UuZxANLFIdA

Extra information:

First Manchester Ltd is pleased to announce that it has been given Office of Fair Trading (OFT) approval to acquire the Manchester bus business of Finglands Coachways Limited.
Finglands operates a number of commercial bus services and school contracts to the South and East of Manchester, First will takeover Finglands' existing bus services from Sunday 9 February.
The acquisition includes the lease of the existing depot in Wilmslow Road, Rusholme, existing service registrations and the transfer of approximately 100 staff. The fleet of 41 vehicles is excluded from the sale although they will be used in the short-term to meet current service commitments. Further details regarding additional fleet investment will be made shortly.
One of the first improvements from 9 February will be the extension of the First Day and Week ticket area to include the Finglands network in South Manchester. All existing Finglands tickets will still be available and details of other new developments will be provided in future announcements.
The acquisition allows First Manchester to further strengthen and grow its successful bus operations in Greater Manchester and demonstrates its commitment to customers and stakeholders.
First Manchester currently operates around 700 buses and employs 2000 staff. In the past 12 months First has lowered a number of its day, week and month fares in the Greater Manchester region by around 30% and has also made significant improvements in terms of its service delivery resulting in passenger volume growth of around 14% since the summer of last year.
Dave Alexander, Regional Managing Director for First in the North of England, said: "This acquisition demonstrates our commitment to Greater Manchester and represents an excellent opportunity to further grow bus passenger volumes.
"We welcome new colleagues and customers and we look forward to working with them to further improve bus services in the communities of Greater Manchester."

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/latest_news/?id=010621

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 10 Panther 3's for Aircoach in Dublin have entered service today - launch attended by Jeroen Weimar, Ireland's minister of state for public transport and the Aircoach MD.

http://www.aircoach.ie/news/aircoach-launches-10-new-coaches

 

[317 forever]

No sooner have the OFT approved First's takeover of Finglands, giving Stagecoach competition from First along Wilmslow Road in Manchester, then Stagecoach announce they will compete with First on route 43 from Edinburgh to Queensferry. I reckon First could eventually withdraw from this route as it does not tie in with their Livingston or Falkirk/ Stirling networks.

 

[winston270twm]

No sooner have the OFT approved First's takeover of Finglands, giving Stagecoach competition from First along Wilmslow Road in Manchester, then Stagecoach announce they will compete with First on route 43 from Edinburgh to Queensferry. I reckon First could eventually withdraw from this route as it does not tie in with their Livingston or Falkirk/ Stirling networks.

To be fair, the only reason I can see for First buying Finglands in Stagecoach Manchester territory was to get back a Stagecoach for the various pockets of competition that have been started around the country on the back of First Group disposals/withdrawals. First have enough issues of their own to sort out without starting a bus war in Manchester

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be fair, the only reason I can see for First buying Finglands in Stagecoach Manchester territory was to get back a Stagecoach for the various pockets of competition that have been started around the country on the back of First Group disposals/withdrawals. First have enough issues of their own to sort out without starting a bus war in Manchester

One might think it was a response to Stagecoach acquiring Bluebird (in the middle of First Manchester territory).

Given that there are plenty of other First skermishes at the moment with Wessex Connect, Webberbus, Plymouth Citybus, Ipswich Buses to name but a few, I think this isn't the start of something but just a nod to Stagecoach.

 

[tbtc]

To be fair, the only reason I can see for First buying Finglands in Stagecoach Manchester territory was to get back a Stagecoach for the various pockets of competition that have been started around the country on the back of First Group disposals/withdrawals. First have enough issues of their own to sort out without starting a bus war in Manchester

It could just be that Finglands were deemed "non-core" by EYMS and they decided to dispose of them (which allows them to improve their "core" fleet, given access requirements).

Since Stagecoach and Arriva both have operations in South Manchester, First may have been about the only company capable of purchasing Finglands (ignoring the usual fantasy about Go-Ahead buying assets that are well away from their existing operations etc).

Maybe no great "masterplan" of striking back against Stagecoach, just a case of something coming onto the market at a cheap enough price to justify acquisition?

 

[overthewater]

I have to agree with tbtc.

EYMS are planning to move the fleet over to Yorkshire, so it gains around 40 low floor buses and £50,000.

Whittle Coach & Bus Ltd might also gain some of these buses?

There is no connection between this and the Stagecoach bid to operate the South Queenferry route.

We are now four weeks down the line, and it's becoming increasingly less likely First will react to this challenge.

 

[Surreyman]

I have to agree with TBTC, EYMS are planning to move the fleet over to Yorkshire, so in sweep it gains around 40 low floor buses and £50'000. Whittle Coach & Bus Ltd, might also gain some of these buses?

In a recent interview Peter Shipp (Owner of EYMS group) indicated that the Whittle Bus business wasn't in very good shape, one of his sons is currently managing the operation, furthermore it was implied that if the Worcester CC cuts go ahead, things could be pretty shaky, he didn't specifically say it would be closed down but reading between the lines. . .
N.B he said that the Whittles coach business is doing fine.
So, if the cuts go ahead it could even be the case that Whittle vehicles are moved back to East Yorkshire.

 

[winston270twm]

I have to agree with TBTC, EYMS are planning to move the fleet over to Yorkshire, so in sweep it gains around 40 low floor buses and £50'000. Whittle Coach & Bus Ltd, might also gain some of these buses?

In a recent interview Peter Shipp (Owner of EYMS group) indicated that the Whittle Bus business wasn't in very good shape, one of his sons is currently managing the operation, furthermore it was implied that if the Worcester CC cuts go ahead, things could be pretty shaky, he didn't specifically say it would be closed down but reading between the lines. . .
N.B he said that the Whittles coach business is doing fine.
So, if the cuts go ahead it could even be the case that Whittle vehicles are moved back to East Yorkshire.

The latest figures available from companies house for Whittle's (31.12.12) show that the business is loss making and both the coach & bus operations were loosing money Those figures didn't however include a full contribution from Whittle's NX contracts. The losses had also grown from the year before and management issues and cost increases were blamed for the increase.

If EYMS/Whittle's were intending to pull of bus operations, they'd be as well to sell out to Rotala who have the ex First Kidderminster operation

 

[Surreyman]

The latest figures available from companies house for Whittle's (31.12.12) show that the business is loss making and both the coach & bus operations were loosing money Those figures didn't however include a full contribution from Whittle's NX contracts. The losses had also grown from the year before and management issues and cost increases were blamed for the increase.

If EYMS/Whittle's were intending to pull of bus operations, they'd be as well to sell out to Rotala who have the ex First Kidderminster operation

I agree with your Rotala point but I don't think the Oft would!
Mind you I am guessing that most of Whittles bus work is tendered, so if cuts go ahead there might not be much to sell.

 

[Blindtraveler]

confirmed, from a driver mate of mine - Musselburgh ddeppo definately for sale! Staff however have been told nothing.↲

 

[mbonwick]

One might think it was a response to Stagecoach acquiring Bluebird (in the middle of First Manchester territory).

Nothing of the sort. As was reported extensively in the trade press at the time the sale was announced, Finglands had been loss making for some time and EYMS had been seeking buyers.

First were the 'best' offer. Worth remembering that Stagecoach don't really need the Finglands assets to expand in that area should they so wish.

 

[Deerfold]

confirmed, from a driver mate of mine - Musselburgh ddeppo definately for sale! Staff however have been told nothing.↲

Haven't we had a few of these rumours?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Nothing of the sort. As was reported extensively in the trade press at the time the sale was announced, Finglands had been loss making for some time and EYMS had been seeking buyers.

First were the 'best' offer. Worth remembering that Stagecoach don't really need the Finglands assets to expand in that area should they so wish.

If it is "nothing of the sort", then why would First seek to purchase even at rock bottom terms? Why take on a loss making business (when First has had enough of those)? I too read the trade press though it was common knowledge. Why have to find another 40+ vehicles when they already have the challenge to meet DDA? Given the relative lack of overlap between Finglands and First, it wasn't to eradicate competition. So it begs the question, why?

Just because it was "going cheap" isn't a reason for purchase, as First probably experienced when trying to offload some of its loss makers! Especially when it comes with virtually no assets, but a lease commitment and staff service commitments (though those are probably underwritten by EYMS in some way).

What is the strategic reason for taking on a loss making operation, with little or no synergies with your existing operations? Not as an offensive measure but as a defensive bulwark?