Is a season ticket from Christs Hospital to St Pancras valid via Vauxhall?

[RichardN]

My problem. 50% of the time I work in Vauxhall. The other 50% I work near Kings Cross. I have been using a zone 2-6 travellers, then oyster to KxstP from Vauxhall as a zone 1-6 from Christs Hospital is £30 per week more than a zone 2-6 ticket! Not exactly the bargain of the century.

I understand that a London Terminals ticket won't cover me via Thameslink to St Pancras, but there is a ticket to St Pancras for the same per week (£3 more than zones 2-6), which seems more like it. Then a thought struck me. Vauxhall might just be on a permitted route to St Pancras, in which case I should be able to use that ticket for both destinations, which would save me a significant amount.

I don't seem to be able to open the routing guide maps on my Kindle, so 2 questions.

Is it allowed?

If it is allowed, am I likely to have such difficulties getting out of Vauxhall station that it isn't worth it?

 

[bb21]

I am unable to check, but I believe it is valid at Vauxhall, as Christ's Hospital - Clapham Junction - Waterloo - Waterloo East - London Bridge - St Pancras would surely be a permitted route.

I cannot comment on likely hassle from gateline staff I'm afraid. I will leave that to someone with more local knowledge.

 

[maniacmartin]

The Season from Christs Hospital to St Pancras is routed NOT UNDERGROUND.

The appropriate routeing point for Christs Hospital is Horsham
Horsham to London Group has maps: LB, LP, SC, SC+PD

Looking at the maps, to my surprise I see no mapped route from Horsham to St Pancras via Vauxhall. Map LB comes the closest, but Waterloo East - London Bridge is missing. You can't even claim to be able to walk between London Terminals, as there is no mapped route LONDON to London Group

However there are some routes that are valid under the three mile rule.
Horsham to London Blackfriars is 37.5 miles by eNRT mileages.
London Waterloo East to London Blackfriars is 1.75 miles.

So you can use routes between Horsham and London Waterloo no more than 37.5 + 3 - 1.75 miles - i.e.no more than 38.75 miles by eNRT mileages.

There are only two of these:

Horsham - Epsom - Wimbledon - Vauxhall - London Waterloo (35.75 miles)
Horsham - Epsom - Sutton - Wimbledon - Vauxhall - London Waterloo (38.25 miles)

So yes, the ticket is valid at Vauxhall, if you travel via Epsom and Wimbledon, and not via Balham.
You can also travel via East Croydon to London Bridge, then switch to another permitted route in the reverse direction to continue to Waterloo East, then travel from Waterloo to Vauxhall

 

[bb21]

This succinctly illustrates the absurdity of the Routeing Guide at times.

I bet my bottom dollars the chance of being challenged while travelling via Balham and Clapham Junction being near Nil.

 

[RichardN]

Near zero, but non nil. The madness of the situation is the amount extra you pay for zone 1, compared to a zones 2-6. From three bridges it is about £10, from Christs Hospital £30.... (all per week)

If you want a laugh compare Christs Hospital - Clapham Junction prices with Christs Hospital - Shepherds Bush via Clapham Junction prices... Why anybody would buy a ticket to CLJ beats me...

 

[PermitToTravel]

I've just checked the Southern website and it's happy for you to go via Balham, East Croydon, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall, Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge, and City Thameslink. I haven't checked, but I am confident that TTL-powered booking engines will be similarly happy. I'd like to check NRE, but it's not playing nicely with my phone at the moment.

Richard, I would personally be happy to use a CHH-STP 'not underground' season to enter/exit Vauxhall

 

[bb21]

Any Permitted?

There is no Any Permitted flow to St Pancras.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Complete and utter fail missed the "issued to London Terminals" in brfares

 

[RichardN]

The Season from Christs Hospital to St Pancras is routed NOT UNDERGROUND.

The appropriate routeing point for Christs Hospital is Horsham
Horsham to London Group has maps: LB, LP, SC, SC+PD

Looking at the maps, to my surprise I see no mapped route from Horsham to St Pancras via Vauxhall. Map LB comes the closest, but Waterloo East - London Bridge is missing. You can't even claim to be able to walk between London Terminals, as there is no mapped route LONDON to London Group

I had a look at the maps and there are certain implications with the map choice. Since these are mapped routes to London, so the implication here is that passengers for Horsham are not allowed to travel to Charing Cross! Surely that is a massive omission?

 

[maniacmartin]

It could be argued that passengers wishing to travel from Horsham to Charing Cross on a Horsham to London Terminals ticket Route Any Permitted can use maps LB or SC+PD

As the LONDON stations are shown as squares, they refer to the routeing point group (representing multiple stations) which you are allowed to travel within as you do not leave the group. This doesn't work for St Pancras, because Farringdon is not a member of the group. I hope a Fares Advisor can explain more about this, as my knowledge is sketchy.

Regarding shortest routes - the shortest route from Horsham to Charing Cross is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route from Horsham to Victoria., so I'm not sure you could argue on that basis (unless you can choose which terminal you want to go to...?) Very confusing!

These maps were changed quite drastically recently, possibly to stop people like me using point to point seasons between suburban south London stations effectively as zonal tickets due to all the lines the maps had.

 

[RichardN]

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for
interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

Arrrgh, that makes things no clearer. In theory it means I could do the journey to St P via Waterloo -> Waterloo E -> London Bridge (all London Stations) as London Bridge is clearly on the permitted route to St Pancras. However does the fact the St Pancras is also part of the London Stations group muck this up?

 

[bb21]

Arrrgh, that makes things no clearer. In theory it means I could do the journey to St P via Waterloo -> Waterloo E -> London Bridge (all London Stations) as London Bridge is clearly on the permitted route to St Pancras. However does the fact the St Pancras is also part of the London Stations group muck this up?

There is no doubleback AFAICS so the Group Stations Rule is irrelevant.

 

[RichardN]

There is no doubleback AFAICS so the Group Stations Rule is irrelevant.

So does that mean that I can freely travel via Waterloo as Waterloo, Waterloo E and LB are all in the London group?

The Southern Journey planner does strike out availability of the trains via Vauxhall so they presumably think it isn't valid.

I still don't understand why Zone 1 should cost £30/week more than zone 2-6 when it costs just over £10/week extra if I travelled from Three Bridges. (Of course it could well be that the 2-6 is priced too low from Christs Hospital...)

 

[bb21]

So does that mean that I can freely travel via Waterloo as Waterloo, Waterloo E and LB are all in the London group?

Yes, since they are all on a permitted route to your destination. There is no map required as they are all part of London Group.

 

[MikeWh]

I still don't understand why Zone 1 should cost £30/week more than zone 2-6 when it costs just over £10/week extra if I travelled from Three Bridges. (Of course it could well be that the 2-6 is priced too low from Christs Hospital...)

There is definitely a problem with the pricing from Christs Hospital. It is one of a number of Southern stations where you should not buy the zone 1-6 travelcard. Three Bridges may be different because of the FCC factor.

CHH-Z1-6: £121.50/wk
CHH-Z5-6: £75.00/wk
Zones 1-4: £45.00/wk

 

[RichardN]

The pricing from CHH at least for a 2-6 is repeated down to Amberley I think. I used to buy an Amberley annual travelcard just in case...

 

[paul1609]

There is definitely a problem with the pricing from Christs Hospital. It is one of a number of Southern stations where you should not buy the zone 1-6 travelcard. Three Bridges may be different because of the FCC factor.

CHH-Z1-6: £121.50/wk
CHH-Z5-6: £75.00/wk
Zones 1-4: £45.00/wk

I think that its probably as a result of the curse of the Gatwick Express!
Tickets from Christ hospital and (I seem to remember) Balcombe and South of are "Any Permitted" and so available on the Gatwick Express whereas those from North of are "not Gatwick Express"