Disabled man 'humiliated' after refused train access, he claims

[bradders1983]

Couldnt see a thread on this so apologies if one exists:

A train company has launched an investigation after a disabled man claimed he was not allowed to board a crowded carriage.

Colin Williams, from Welshpool, claimed a guard refused to let him board a train to Shrewsbury saying it was full.

But Mr Williams, 41, said several other passengers were allowed to the board the train, while the guard did not lower the ramp for his wheelchair.

Arriva Trains Wales said it was investigating the matter.

Full story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-27026292

 

[Qwerty133]

This is just one side of the story, their could have already been a wheelchair user on board. The guard may benefit from training in handling these situations, but if there was another wheelchair on board I can't legitimately see what could have been done to allow him travel.

 

[TheEdge]

This is just one side of the story, their could have already been a wheelchair user on board. The guard may benefit from training in handling these situations, but if there was another wheelchair on board I can't legitimately see what could have been done to allow him travel.

This. As to others boarding it is possible. An able bodied person can stand in a vestibule or in a corridor, a wheelchair can't.

And given he was at Shrewsbury and from Welshpool if this was on an Aber bound train I know from experience how rammed they can be.

 

[bradders1983]

This is just one side of the story, their could have already been a wheelchair user on board. The guard may benefit from training in handling these situations, but if there was another wheelchair on board I can't legitimately see what could have been done to allow him travel.

Do trains have limits on how many wheelchair users they can get on? Serious question.

 

[LowLevel]

Do trains have limits on how many wheelchair users they can get on? Serious question.

Depending on the type of train, yes - on a class 158 such as was featured here, if they aren't in the wheelchair space, which fits one wheelchair and it's user, two at an absolute push, if they're in the vestibule they will be obstructing the toilets, doors or emergency cupboard wherever they may happen to position themselves, or at the other end, the doors or driving cab. This could cause a serious impediment to an evacuation in an emergency (standard procedure is, regrettably, in order to effect an evacuation as quickly and safely as possible, to leave a wheelchair user who is confined to their chair until last, as it is no mean feat to safely handle them out of a train.).

If it's another kind of train like a class 170 you can generally fit far more people in wheelchairs on board as there's wide open spaces designed for them, and doors with the appropriate turning circle to allow maneuvering.

I feel very sorry for the guard because it's a lose/lose situation for them. Unless they've been modified the ramp on a 158 is also situated in a cupboard with an outward opening door in the vestibule - if the vestibule is full of people it's extremely difficult to get it out.

 

[Crossover]

I agree with what the majority of posters have said on here - it is an unfortunate side effect of the trains and their design in that there is a lack of space for wheelchairs, and there is only a specified amount of space for them (/unfolded pushchairs etc)

I can't help but feel that we have very much only got one side of the story - one cannot really say the guard requires training as the guard may have explained a reason why they couldn't board (and why they couldn't get on at any other door of the train), but of course that doesn't make a good news story...call me cynical :P

 

[TDK]

I am sure that ATW have a dedicated phone line for pre booking assistance on it's services, if this was used then the passenger has a good point, if not I cannot see how he will get anywhere with his complaint.

 

[Tracky]

ATW 158s each have two generously sized reservable wheelchair spaces. Many trains through Welshpool operate with two units. The ramp cupboard is indeed small and hard open on a busy train.

 

[coxy]

I saw something similar at Reading yesterday (Monday) afternoon.

A couple in wheelchairs (plus helper ?) were waiting to board a service to Penzance. Once the train had pulled in, a customer service rep went aboard and then came out again but failed to deploy the ramp which he had. The doors were closed and the train cleared to depart.

The couple shouted to the platform staff that they had to go on that train (possibly they had advanced tickets), but the train departed without them.

The customer service rep suggested there was no room for them on the train, since large items of baggage had been placed in the designated wheelchair spaced in the carriage.

I would have thought the train manager should have ensured this area was kept clear to allow wheelchair users to use it ??

 

[Parallel]

Cambrian services are always notoriously busy by Welshpool when travelling east bound - The trains seem to collect passengers as far as Shrewsbury when they start to disembark. Whilst I do feel for the disabled passenger as train services are only once every two hours here, I could imagine it was very frustrating that he couldn't board because he was in a wheelchair.

However on the flip side, if there was already a wheelchair on board, or the guard couldn't safely access the ramp, then he's going to be putting his safety at risk trying to board as well as safety of other passengers at risk if he's not in a wheelchair designated space and is blocking a vestibule. It depends on the circumstances, if it wasn't full, or if it was and he had booked a space through contacting Arriva, then IMO he does have the grounds for an investigation, however if he just turned up on the day and expected to be allowed to board a crush loaded service (and I mean crush loaded, some of these trains are absolutely rammed) then I can't see the investigation achieving much.

The issue is (I work in retail at the moment) that if customers (or passengers in this case) don't hear what they want to hear, they interpret it as rudeness, I've witnessed this when a customer was claiming that a product should be discounted.

Although the hourly service is all very well, if Arriva are planning to run 2 coaches an hour instead of 4 every two hours, I can't see this helping capacity at all from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth.

 

[overtonchris]

Without knowing the full facts I find it hard to know who to feel more sorry for. Obviously the poor gent in the wheelchair has had a bad and disappointing experience (humiliating? - well that's subjective),..... but if the guard/ TM or whatever, couldn't fit him on for Health and Safety constraints etc, then he'd either be damned for being a jobs-worth nazi for not letting him on - OR - if something went horribly wrong (accident etc) because space had been "made" for him against procedures, the ATW fellow would be in very deep "brown stuff" for being lax by not following said procedures. I've got to say that I've used ATW many times, and at worse my disability makes me wobble about on crutches , but the on-train staff at ATW have always been brilliant with me and have gone out of their way to help so I find it hard to believe that an employee would be deliberately obstructive.....Just my thoughts...

 

[LowLevel]

I saw something similar at Reading yesterday (Monday) afternoon.

A couple in wheelchairs (plus helper ?) were waiting to board a service to Penzance. Once the train had pulled in, a customer service rep went aboard and then came out again but failed to deploy the ramp which he had. The doors were closed and the train cleared to depart.

The couple shouted to the platform staff that they had to go on that train (possibly they had advanced tickets), but the train departed without them.

The customer service rep suggested there was no room for them on the train, since large items of baggage had been placed in the designated wheelchair spaced in the carriage.

I would have thought the train manager should have ensured this area was kept clear to allow wheelchair users to use it ??

Yes - that isn't on. If necessary you delay the train a minute or two to sort that situation out (speaking as a former dispatcher at a busy intercity station and a guard ) . Not good at all.

 

[Qwerty133]

Yes - that isn't on. If necessary you delay the train a minute or two to sort that situation out (speaking as a former dispatcher at a busy intercity station and a guard ) . Not good at all.

I've overheard passengers with folding bikes say that they hope their isn't ever a wheelchair on their train, so they can put their bikes in the wheelchair bay and not bother folding them.
At the other extreme, I've seen a dispatcher refuse to allow a pram to use the wheelchair bay, even though there was not a wheelchair and it was only travelling one stop.

 

[andypops]

Generally ATW staff are very good RE: wheelchairs. However, when the nice weather starts and the hoards of cyclists start to use trains, it is not uncommon for cycles to be left obstructing doors, vestibules, or wheelchair spaces, and I have yet to see a single guard confront a cyclist about it.

In this case, I agree with others in that I don't think we have the whole story, and that it is likely the guard was right to make the difficult call regardless of the poor publicity garnered by it. However, a general brush-up for all ATW guards on the topic of accommodating wheelchairs, cycles etc. may be beneficial.

 

[bigbear]

Dammed if you do and dammed if you dont.....if theres no space then theres no space, its not rocket science, you try and accomodate everyone but thats not always possible.....I was on a train and the wheelchair user couldnt get to the toilet due to the severe overcrowding, it was just impossible no one could move!, as a result the wheelchair user soiled themselves....theres no limit to the amount of people you can get on a train and while thats the case then there will always be severe overcrowding and incidents due to the severe overcrowding such as people passing out, soiling themselves etc etc....

I sympathise with this guard as performance Is also on his mind and delaying his train for a wheelchair user for which he cannot accomodate will not do him any favours in his company's eyes...its not ideal but we dont live in an ideal world....

 

[BestWestern]

I saw something similar at Reading yesterday (Monday) afternoon.

A couple in wheelchairs (plus helper ?) were waiting to board a service to Penzance. Once the train had pulled in, a customer service rep went aboard and then came out again but failed to deploy the ramp which he had. The doors were closed and the train cleared to depart.

The couple shouted to the platform staff that they had to go on that train (possibly they had advanced tickets), but the train departed without them.

The customer service rep suggested there was no room for them on the train, since large items of baggage had been placed in the designated wheelchair spaced in the carriage.

I would have thought the train manager should have ensured this area was kept clear to allow wheelchair users to use it ??

Yes - that isn't on. If necessary you delay the train a minute or two to sort that situation out (speaking as a former dispatcher at a busy intercity station and a guard ) . Not good at all.

Hang on...

Firstly, it simply isn't possible for the Train Manager to 'ensure the area is kept clear' on a packed train - how exactly does he do that?! The wheelchair bay is in Coach C, three coaches from the front leaving Paddington. The TM has to dispatch from the rear when departing, and in addition the train will have been sat in the platform with pax boarding while the TM is engaged in other duties such as carrying out a train preparation. Such comments are so often casually made but demonstrate a gaping failure to apply thought or common sense; when considered for a moment it quite obviously isn't that simple. What people also need to consider is that, sadly, a vast majority of travellers on such a packed train have precious little concern for their fellow passengers; when faced with the slightest possibility that they might not be able to get on many passengers adopt a startlingly aggressive 'survival' menatality where all consideration for anybody else goes out of the window.

We also don't know whether these passengers had booked; if not then there is no greater requirement as far as I'm aware to accomodate them then there would be anybody else - if the train is full, it is full. If a booking was made it may simply have been considered that an alternative means of conveying the passengers was less disruptive, a taxi for example. You will spend a very long time indeed trying to persuade several people to take their luggage and detrain in order to benefit somebody else. I challenge any dispatcher to get that dealt with in 'a minute or two'; more like ten.

 

[Clip]

Whilst I do feel sorry for the person who could not get on the train I do wonder why there was a need to go to the press? To highlight that the trains are not fit for purpose or some other agenda? Ive had a few wheelchair passengers at various stations and with both TOCs I have worked in management with who have had similar problems. Our control was informed and a solution was found. None of htese have ever gone to the press as the people involved understood the situation and were quite happy with the remedy.

I am all for equality but there needs to be an undertstanding that if a train is full then its full. Are people now saying that those standing have to get off to let a wheelchair passenger on?

I bet you any money that if a call was made prior to wanting to get on then a solution wouldve been found as control wouldve known how busy this service is every day.

And whilst it would be nice to be able to just turn up and get on a train with a wheelchair whenever they want like the rest of us there must surely be some understanding from some parts that at times this just isnt possible.

 

[LowLevel]

It's company policy at my TOC and part of their job role for the train guard to keep wheelchair areas accessible.

It would appear we're not alone as to quote XC's policy on the same here - http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk...ssistance/disabled-people's-protection-policy - "We will ensure that any spaces dedicated for wheelchairs are not used for any other purpose and the need to keep these spaces clear is a specific part of our luggage policy."

It may be bloody difficult or nigh on impossible at times, but that's the situation as it is. Having slung 8 or 9 items of luggage around a peak Friday holidaymakers train myself (and put the delay into it in the mean time) I know where you're coming from but you have to deal with it, even if you end up delaying the train - especially if they're all like it. It was definitely the case that when the space was displayed as reserved and it occurred the delay was allocated to the train manager. I will ask briefly for the owners of the luggage to come and help move it, but if they don't appear I've got no hesitation in chucking it about myself - that said I'm a big lad and aware I won't be backed up if I manage to injure myself in the process.

As I said before - it's obviously not a gaping lack of thought or anything else - I've been a train dispatcher and I am a guard - including on trains that carry a lot of luggage and have next to nowhere to put it - but I do realise it is a damn near impossible job to please everyone as we are expected to do.

I should of course make clear that I'm referring to the wheelchair space being full of suitcases, catering supplies, pushchairs etc - if it's full of warm and irritated human bodies with nowhere else to stand it does make it rather difficult. Even then though, particularly if the passenger has reserved and depending on the location, I'd probably hang around long enough to get control to book them a taxi and confirm it has been done for them.

 

[merlodlliw]

Whilst I do feel sorry for the person who could not get on the train I do wonder why there was a need to go to the press?

It is usual for wheelchair users to be members of a Charity, some Charity's advise involving the press before complaints procedures have been exhausted.
However some complaints procedures take so long, ATW can take up to two weeks to answer an e mail.
I agree there are two sides to the story, with my work in the Voluntary sector I have found some activists will never want to understand, "If reasonably practical "and have never understood the guidance notes that support the Equality Act. My opinion only

Perhaps this would be better linked to the Cambrian thread.

 

[BestWestern]

It's company policy at my TOC and part of their job role for the train guard to keep wheelchair areas accessible.

It would appear we're not alone as to quote XC's policy on the same here - http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk...ssistance/disabled-people's-protection-policy - "We will ensure that any spaces dedicated for wheelchairs are not used for any other purpose and the need to keep these spaces clear is a specific part of our luggage policy."

It may be bloody difficult or nigh on impossible at times, but that's the situation as it is. Having slung 8 or 9 items of luggage around a peak Friday holidaymakers train myself (and put the delay into it in the mean time) I know where you're coming from but you have to deal with it, even if you end up delaying the train - especially if they're all like it. It was definitely the case that when the space was displayed as reserved and it occurred the delay was allocated to the train manager. I will ask briefly for the owners of the luggage to come and help move it, but if they don't appear I've got no hesitation in chucking it about myself - that said I'm a big lad and aware I won't be backed up if I manage to injure myself in the process.

As I said before - it's obviously not a gaping lack of thought or anything else - I've been a train dispatcher and I am a guard - including on trains that carry a lot of luggage and have next to nowhere to put it - but I do realise it is a damn near impossible job to please everyone as we are expected to do.

I should of course make clear that I'm referring to the wheelchair space being full of suitcases, catering supplies, pushchairs etc - if it's full of warm and irritated human bodies with nowhere else to stand it does make it rather difficult. Even then though, particularly if the passenger has reserved and depending on the location, I'd probably hang around long enough to get control to book them a taxi and confirm it has been done for them.

An entirely theoretical policy, which in practise is completely unenforceable. Quite simply you cannot carry out your role as a Guard whilst simultaneously standing sentry at a big empty space at the other end of a packed train, it just doesn't work. Particularly laughable coming from XC; presumably their customer service dreamers don't use the trains! If I'm that full there's no chance then I'll have a quick conversation with the dispatcher and tell them they need a taxi, and then once on the move give control a quick bell to pass on the message. Our toc are, thankfully, quite sensible and appreciate that we live in the real world and not a customer service utopia!

 

[Greenback]

Unfortunately, many TOC policies are difficult or impossible to follow. Front line staff really are in a no win situation with many of the instructions and guidance that they are meant to follow. There usually isn't much alternative apart from trying to do their best and knowing that, as LowLevel syas, it's not possibel to please everyone all of the time.

And I don;t think that any of the XC office staff have ever had the misfortune to use their services at all, let alone enjoy the fun of catching a late afternoon Sunday service between Bristol and Birmingham!

 

[LowLevel]

And there lies the crux of the matter really doesn't it - I am one man, I do what I can do no more!

 

[Greenback]

And there lies the crux of the matter really doesn't it - I am one man, I do what I can do no more!

Exactly. One can only give of one's best.

Back on topic, in an ideal world there would be room for everyone, wheelchair users, buggy pushers, and every passenger who could possibly want to travel on any journey would be guaranteed a seat.

Unfortunately, in reality, it is quite different, as this man has discovered. And despite all the sound bites from charities, disabled rights groups and the like, it is the real world that is the here and now.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think there are two different issues coming out on this thread.

The first one is the bloke at Welshpool. Unfortunately the train was full, and if it is full it is full. That's just one of those things, and a significant reason why most disabled people avoid using public transport wherever possible. It doesn't sound like there were inconsiderate people on board, it was simply that the train was packed.

The second one is the storage of bags in the wheelchair bay. My view on this one is clear: any bags left in the wheelchair area should be removed from the train. The signs should state this is what would happen, and that the TOC is not responsible for loss or damage, just like unattended bags on railway stations "may be removed and destroyed by the security services".

I've seen it too many times when people travelling with suitcases larger than my car dump them everywhere, and actually this needs to be resolved. "Anyone who doesn't move the bags from the wheelchair bay can collect them later, at their own cost, from the station office at Reading" will focus a few minds. It's amazing how people manage to move their bags when they're told the alternative is travelling without them.

That said, if the standard class bay was full of bags, I find it disgraceful that they didn't check the first class bay.

As for the TM not being able to deal with baggage, the TMs on East Coast tend to manage reasonably well, and their office is further from the wheelchair bay. It isn't a case of "standing sentry", but (given that there was assistance at Reading) you'd expect a TM to check the bay if a wheelchair user is booked. Not that wheelchair users are obliged to book in advance, of course.

 

[Qwerty133]

I think there are two different issues coming out on this thread.

The first one is the bloke at Welshpool. Unfortunately the train was full, and if it is full it is full. That's just one of those things, and a significant reason why most people avoid using public transport wherever possible.

The second one is the storage of bags in the wheelchair bay. My view on this one is clear: any bags left in the wheelchair area should be removed from the train. The signs should state this is what would happen, just like unattended bags on railway stations "may be removed and destroyed by the security services".

I've seen it too many times when people travelling with suitcases larger than my car dump them everywhere, and actually this needs to be resolved. "Anyone who doesn't move the bags from the wheelchair bay can collect them later, at their own cost, from the station office at Reading" will focus a few minds. It's amazing how people manage to move their bags when they're told the alternative is travelling without them.

That said, if the standard class bay was full of bags, I find it disgraceful that they didn't check the first class bay.

As for the TM not being able to deal with baggage, the TMs on East Coast tend to manage reasonably well, and their office is further from the wheelchair bay.

ATW don't have first class, except for the loco hauled service.

 

[w0033944]

If we're saying that a TM does not have the time to check the wheelchair bay, what is the point of designating it as such? Might as well have it as simply empty space and let people fill it as they wish - from some of the comments here from TMs it sounds as though this is what happens in practice anyway? As a wheelchair user, I wouldn't dare use the national network - the number of references we've had from guards, TMs, regular passengers here on the forum surrounding procedural failings, miscommunication, aggressive and selfish passengers and the occasional obstreperous member of staff suggest to me that the national rail network isn't, and probably never will be, friendly towards people with physical disabilities beyond a bit of arthritis of visual/hearing impairment.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Exactly. One can only give of one's best.

Unfortunately, in reality, it is quite different, as this man has discovered. And despite all the sound bites from charities, disabled rights groups and the like, it is the real world that is the here and now.

The fact is that in the "real world" the industry is not doing its best. Being charitable it could be called mediocre, but that really is being charitable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-26875081

http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/research/publications/passenger-assist-summary-report

The Passenger Focus report makes damning reading. Passengers who had used Passenger Assist only received the help they had booked in 66% of cases. Passengers who had reserved a wheelchair space were only able to get into it in 68% of cases. Only 45% of passengers received the service they had been promised by Passenger Assist.

If that's the industry's best effort then we may as well all go home.

ATW don't have first class, except for the loco hauled service.

I was referring to the incident at Reading, with FGW. It sounds like the Welshpool incident was, unfortunately, completely unavoidable.

 

[Greenback]

The fact is that in the "real world" the industry is not doing its best. Being charitable it could be called mediocre, but that really is being charitable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-26875081

http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/research/publications/passenger-assist-summary-report

The Passenger Focus report makes damning reading. Passengers who had used Passenger Assist only received the help they had booked in 66% of cases. Passengers who had reserved a wheelchair space were only able to get into it in 68% of cases. Only 45% of passengers received the service they had been promised by Passenger Assist.

If that's the industry's best effort then we may as well all go home.

I agree that there are failing swith the system for disabled assistance. However, you have taken my comments out opf context and I'm sorry if I was not clear enough.

My first statement was regarding the difficult scenarios that train crew are faced with on a daily basis, and was a direct reply to the quote. My second comment, which I tried to seperate from the first by way of 'Back on topic' was really about the people who write the policies from behind a desk having little idea of conditions on board trains.

There was no link intended between the first part of my post and the second.

The fact is that once the media is involved, a member of staff will always seem to have made the wrong decision, even if there was no alternative. The way policies are written puts staff in an impossible position.

 

[merlodlliw]

My second comment, which I tried to seperate from the first by way of 'Back on topic' was really about the people who write the policies from behind a desk having little idea of conditions on board trains.Greenback

I fully agree, I have seen policies written to satisfy funding and other reasons by people who have no idea how to implement them, I am sure the same applies to trains.

As for ATW first class which was mentioned,its usually occupied by staff.

 

[Greenback]

I fully agree, I have seen policies written to satisfy funding and other reasons by people who have no idea how to implement them, I am sure the same applies to trains.

As for ATW first class which was mentioned,its usually occupied by staff.

Indeed, the huge difference between policies and reality is certainly not confined to the railways!