Alliance Rail (GNWR) gets Network Rail approval

[The Planner]

Will be interesting to know what has changed since Virgin were told no to Shrewsbury via Stafford. The will turn around and stable in Kilburn loop after Queens Park as they wont get into Euston, even less so once HS2 kicks off and the capacity drops monumentally. I suspect Virgin are on the blower to the lawyers as we speak....

 

[theshillito]

I don't know of any plans. Winsford isn't mentioned under platform lengthening in Network Rail's CP5 plans.

Hartford can take a 11 car train and the trains stopping at it are 4 car 350s, so I don't think it needs platform lengthening!

My mistake. The platforms at Hartford are being raised, not lengthened.

 

[ac6000cw]

It does feel like it's time for some open-access competition for the WCML traffic, so good luck to Alliance.

As another idea, how about Chiltern getting a connection put in north of Birmingham, where the ex-GWR Snow Hill line crosses the Soho - Perry Bar ex-LNWR line, to allow their loco-hauled services to extend to Stafford and Crewe ?

 

[aylesbury2]

I trust they will be stopping at Milton Keynes

I suspect that might be deemed to be "too abstractive"...

Why would they want to do that? It's not like MK doesn't get a decent service now.....:roll:
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Except there's not exactly a huge number of available paths from either Stoke or Crewe to Manchester and it would add a considerable overhead to journey time.

7+ tph (even at off-peak times) to Euston or South Croydon/Selhurst, over 53 miles in 35 minutes and 6+ tph northwards (Glasgow, BHM, Holyhead, Crewe, Chester, Manchester Piccadilly etc.) as well! I'm not sure what you're complaining about...the joys of being on a mainline!

Those in Aylesbury do 38 miles in 60 minutes, with no northwards connections whatsoever unless you change at Risborough, in which case you can only get to Snow Hill or Moor Street. If only history had been different.

 

[oversteer]

7+ tph (even at off-peak times) to Euston or South Croydon/Selhurst, over 53 miles in 35 minutes and 6+ tph northwards (Glasgow, BHM, Holyhead, Crewe, Chester, Manchester Piccadilly etc.) as well! I'm not sure what you're complaining about...the joys of being on a mainline!

Those in Aylesbury do 38 miles in 60 minutes, with no northwards connections whatsoever unless you change at Risborough, in which case you can only get to Snow Hill or Moor Street. If only history had been different.

When EWR starts, you'll probably be able to go Aylesbury-MK-Euston quicker than on Chiltern!

 

[Chris125]

Will be interesting to know what has changed since Virgin were told no to Shrewsbury via Stafford.

Norton Bridge?

Chris

 

[aylesbury2]

When EWR starts, you'll probably be able to go Aylesbury-MK-Euston quicker than on Chiltern!

Exactly, although I will probably have moved out of the area by then and VT might not have the franchise any more, although I'm sure another proficient TOC will come in, VT have been excellent whenever I've (quite rarely) used them.

But I'd love to come back one day and experience classy, intercity rolling stock for once!

 

[route:oxford]

When EWR starts, you'll probably be able to go Aylesbury-MK-Euston quicker than on Chiltern!

This is probably the most important part.

Once E-W opens, MK will need a more intensive calling pattern for inter-city services.

It would be nice if they diagrammed a couple of services a week into Paddington for diversionary training.

 

[A0wen]

This is probably the most important part.

Once E-W opens, MK will need a more intensive calling pattern for inter-city services.

It would be nice if they diagrammed a couple of services a week into Paddington for diversionary training.

The only way you'll achieve that though is either increasing journey times to London from places further north or deleting calls from other stations which receive the current IC services - which would probably mean Watford Junction, Rugby and potentially Nuneaton / Tamworth losing out.

Sorry - MK getting more IC calls isn't going to happen.

 

[aylesbury2]

This is probably the most important part.

Once E-W opens, MK will need a more intensive calling pattern for inter-city services.

It would be nice if they diagrammed a couple of services a week into Paddington for diversionary training.

But it is 22 miles the wrong way (northwards) for us Aylesbury commuters!

 

[rebmcr]

Ian Yeowart actually admitted himself that the proposed Winsford changes may not be possible, that was when they were proposing 5 car Polaris trains, now they are proposing 6 car Pendolinos.

In the context of this Alliance bid, does Pendolino actually mean "Class 390", or is it just shorthand for "long-distance tilting EMU"?

 

[Manchester77]

In the context of this Alliance bid, does Pendolino actually mean "Class 390", or is it just shorthand for "long-distance tilting EMU"?

The latter most probably since 390s aren't compliment to current crash standards

 

[aylesbury2]

The latter most probably since 390s aren't compliment to current crash standards

So will it be replaced by another Alstom-built train or something altogether different?

 

[Stats]

Grand Central used to be managed by Ian Yeowart and are owned by Arriva, the same as Alliance. Grand Central haven't resubmitted amended bids to prevent bidding against their sister.

They wouldn't. It is Arriva's policy that Alliance will make all bids on behalf of Grand Central.

 

[Manchester77]

So will it be replaced by another Alstom-built train or something altogether different?

Under EU regulation it has to go out to tender meaning any company who can meet the terms of the tender can get the contract

 

[northwichcat]

Under EU regulation it has to go out to tender meaning any company who can meet the terms of the tender can get the contract

They can specify tilting stock suitable for running at 125mph on the WCML and give time scales which wouldn't allow development of a completely new product then Alstom will be the only bidder who can put in a viable bid.

 

[Moonshot]

Bolton and Chorley overlooked again. Running London to Manchester then via Bolton to Blackpool would surely avoid some of congestion on the WCML.

Maybe the fact that an Open Access Operator has looked at this and decided there is insufficent demand to run this through Bolton and Chorley

Of course I could be mistaken and the reason is the congestion through the bottleneck between Salford Crescent and Piccadilly....

 

[aylesbury2]

Maybe the fact that an Open Access Operator has looked at this and decided there is insufficent demand to run this through Bolton and Chorley

Of course I could be mistaken and the reason is the congestion through the bottleneck between Salford Crescent and Piccadilly....

I can understand a lack of interest at Chorley as it has less than 900,000 users per year (which isn't really a big enough number to justify this), however I would have thought a service at Bolton would potentially be a good idea, however many users would probably be going via Piccadilly which isn't too far.

 

[ac6000cw]

Under EU regulation it has to go out to tender meaning any company who can meet the terms of the tender can get the contract

Don't forget we are talking about an open-access private company here, not a public body/authority/utility.

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe the fact that an Open Access Operator has looked at this and decided there is insufficent demand to run this through Bolton and Chorley

Of course I could be mistaken and the reason is the congestion through the bottleneck between Salford Crescent and Piccadilly....

One thing I recall Ian Yeowart saying when he first made Alliance proposals is they will need to take the fastest available route between Preston and London so they can compete with the West Coast franchise operator in terms of timings.

 

[Moonshot]

One thing I recall Ian Yeowart saying when he first made Alliance proposals is they will need to take the fastest available route between Preston and London so they can compete with the West Coast franchise operator in terms of timings.

if that is the case - then it would make sense not to operate through Bolton....

 

[higthomas]

One thing I recall Ian Yeowart saying when he first made Alliance proposals is they will need to take the fastest available route between Preston and London so they can compete with the West Coast franchise operator in terms of timings.

What with a calling pattern of;
Euston
Milton Keynes
Rugby
Nuneaton
Tamworth
Lichfield
Crewe
Winsford
Warrington Bank Quay
Newton-le-Willows
Preston
even if they only stop at half of those places on any one service, that'a already 2 or 3 more stops than Virgin make, and many of them are in the Trent valley, and only have platforms on the slows. This means leaving the fasts and joining the slows, which I would guess is liable to take up a reasonable amount of time, especially if they end up travelling along the slows for any amount of time, what with the possibility of getting stuck behind a freight.

I only think they will compete with Virgin due to cost, and also people just turning up and wanting the next train to London.

 

[Moonshot]

What with a calling pattern of;
Euston
Milton Keynes
Rugby
Nuneaton
Tamworth
Lichfield
Crewe
Winsford
Warrington Bank Quay
Newton-le-Willows
Preston
even if they only stop at half of those places on any one service, that'a already 2 or 3 more stops than Virgin make, and many of them are in the Trent valley, and only have platforms on the slows. This means leaving the fasts and joining the slows, which I would guess is liable to take up a reasonable amount of time, especially if they end up travelling along the slows for any amount of time, what with the possibility of getting stuck behind a freight.

I only think they will compete with Virgin due to cost, and also people just turning up and wanting the next train to London.

Fair point....

 

[thealexweb]

if that is the case - then it would make sense not to operate through Bolton....

London to Preston currently takes around two hours ten minutes doesn't it? London to Manchester takes around two hours. Post electrification Manchester to Preston will take around 20-30 minutes. The gap between the total journey times is much smaller than most think.
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Maybe the fact that an Open Access Operator has looked at this and decided there is insufficent demand to run this through Bolton and Chorley

Of course I could be mistaken and the reason is the congestion through the bottleneck between Salford Crescent and Piccadilly....

The route is congested at that end I.e. some TPE services start / stop from Manchester Oxford Road. Also platform lengths could be an issue at some stations.

 

[The Planner]

Norton Bridge?

Chris

Shouldn't make a difference, Norton Bridge gets rids of the conflicting moves north of Stafford to open up the capacity. Virgins original proposal didn't go near that pinch point.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In the context of this Alliance bid, does Pendolino actually mean "Class 390", or is it just shorthand for "long-distance tilting EMU"?

The latter most probably since 390s aren't compliment to current crash standards

The draft access contract actually says 6-car 390s.
Any new 390s would be re-engineered to a degree, with the development of technology and a different customer/operational spec.
Alstom would want a derivative of their current products.
I'm not sure to what degree VT's 2010 Pendolinos are not compliant, if at all.

 

[edwin_m]

One of the oddities about railway history is that no rail company with "Great" in its title has ever operated over the West Cost Main Line or its major branches.

What about the, er, LNW-GW Joint between Chester and Warrington with GWR running powers onwards via Earlestown to Manchester Liverpool Road?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What about the, er, LNW-GW Joint between Chester and Warrington with GWR running powers onwards via Earlestown to Manchester Liverpool Road?

Yes, you're right of course, but there was no significant GWR property in the north west (except goods depots).
The line was built as the Birkenhead, Lancashire and Cheshire Junction, and became the Birkenhead Joint.
The GWR certainly worked over it to Birkenhead, Manchester and Liverpool.
And also into Crewe from Wellington via Market Drayton.
The Great Northern worked into Manchester Central of course via the MS&L/CLC lines.

It's odd that "Great Northern" is a very prominent name in Manchester today, based on its long-time display on the GNR goods warehouse at Deansgate.
Albert Dock in Liverpool has a prominent GWR sign on the old goods depot.
The Midland still has its hotel in Manchester.
The LNWR is sadly relegated to a sign on their goods warehouse at Heaton Norris.
All the other references seem to have vanished, although Network Rail keeps the flag flying with its LNW Route appellation.
And not to forget Wigan North Western.

 

[rebmcr]

Some TPE services start / stop from Manchester Oxford Road.

All TPE services are through-running at Oxford Road. The only services to terminate there are Northern stoppers to Liverpool Lime Street from platform 5.

 

[thealexweb]

All TPE services are through-running at Oxford Road. The only services to terminate there are Northern stoppers to Liverpool Lime Street from platform 5.

One morning peak service terminates at Oxford Road and it returns northwards as a service to Windermere.